blender Posted June 6, 2006 Posted June 6, 2006 It means physics effects can be done using the gpu power (effects physics are things like spary of water, walls crumbling etc...). Actual physics (objects interacting with each other) still has to be done on the CPU or a PPU if you have one. Basically explosions will look better. Physics effects can be done on the GPU. In fact even audio acceleration can be done on the gpu. It is just another chip that happens to be good at mathsy stuff. A seperate PPU is just marketing crap. i.e. Easy for the non technical user to understand but actrually not always necessary or indeed helpful. Both the instances you described can be done if the GPU manufacturers provide the right resources. I hope the wii GPU chip has such features. Iceberg style. http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=226&type=expert&pid=3 http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/03/20/nvidia_havok_gpu_physics/ http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060526-6932.html
pedrocasilva Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 About Havok FX: Using Havok FX and GPU technology, game developers will be able to implement a range of physical effects like debris, smoke, and fluids that add immense detail and believability to Havok’s already unparalleled game-play physics system. Havok FX will enable ten's of thousands of object collisions occurring in real-time, without putting any additional burden on the CPU or otherwise slowing down the game. Havok FX’s GPU-accelerated debris objects will interact with each other and with the game world- colliding with and responding to- game-play critical objects that are solved on the CPU. Havok FX is cross-platform, and utilizes the native power of Shader Model 3.0 class graphics cards to deliver effect physics that integrate seamlessly with Havok’s industry-leading game-play physics technology found in Havok Complete™. What Kinds Of Effects Does Havok FX Enable? Havok FX will enable dynamic in-game effects that are based upon rigid-body collisions and constraints – including debris, smoke, fog, and ultimately simulated liquids - but on a scale that goes well beyond the magnitude and volume of objects normally simulated in CPU-based game-play physics. By performing simulation, collision detection and rendering directly on the GPU, Havok FX avoids the transfer of large amounts of data between the CPU and GPU, enabling a level of performance of object collisions in the 1000’s occurring in real-time, without putting any additional burden on the CPU or otherwise slowing down the game. How Will Havok FX Work? Havok FX will support a new type of rigid-body object called a Debris Primitive. A Debris Primitive is a compact representation of a 3D collidable object that can be procedded via Shader Model 3.0 (SM3.0) in a very efficient manner. Debris Primitives can be pre-modeled as part of a game's static art content (e.g. custom/textured boulders, space junk, or collateral objects waiting for an explosive charge). They may also be generated on the fly during game play by the CPU, based on the direction and intensity of a force (e.g. brick and stone structure blown apart by a cannon blast). Once generated by the CPU, Debris Primitives can be dispatched fully to the GPU for physical simulation and final rendering - comprising a powerful blending of physics and state-of-the-art shading effects for particulate and large scale phenomenon. Why Are We Standardizing On Shader Model 3.0? The flexibility, programmability and power available with SM3.0 hardware is programmed both through standard interfaces, DirectX and OpenGL, and more specifically through languages like HLSL and Cg. The SM3.0 GPUs have become general and powerful enough to perform a broader range of computations – beyond the role of pure graphical shading for which they were initially used. Do PC Gamers Need To Purchase Proprietary Physics Hardware To Accelerate Game-Play Physics? Not for game-play physics. Havok believes that fast game-play physics starts with excellent software technology, and gets faster with increased general CPU computing power. So, for acceleration of game-play physics, along with the core game-logic, special purpose physics hardware is not the answer. What Is The Difference Between Game-Play Physics And Effects physics? Game-Play Physics affect how a game is played from moment-to-moment, and is generally computed on a computer’s central processing unit (CPU). Physical changes that you cause in the game or that happen to you or around you– like knocking over a box, and then climbing up on it - change what you may want to do in each instant of game play. Both game-play physics and game logic demand instant access and tolerate no detectible latency to preserve the game-play experience. The close proximity between physics, game logic, and memory, defines game play and generally demands that these systems execute together on a game system’s CPU. Effects physics – a close cousin to visual effects now computed on GPUs – add to the visual complexity of a game and help increase a player’s immersive experience. As visual phenomena, effects physics need to be convincingly real but do not profoundly affect game play. They can merely fill in the player’s view of the game, creating a richer, more convincing environment- but may not affect the choices a player can make from moment-to-moment. When Will Havok FX Be Released? Havok FX will be released in Q2 of 2006. Source: http://www.havok.com/content/view/187/77/ The thing is... any SM3.0 compliant card supports it, so why is ATi having a better performance than Nvidia now? is it only due to optimization or is it a specific part of the GPU dedicated to speed up that process? Nvidia's performance with 15 000 boulers Processing Physics on hardware is not new though: Raja Kodouri, a senior architect at ATI Technologies said that the company’s graphics processors, including the RADEON 9700, which is the world’s first DirectX 9.0 GPU, are capable of processing arrays of vertexes, similar type of operation that AGEIA’s physics processing units (PPUs) can perform. The arrays of data should be processed using pixel shader processors within a chip, the architect said. Even though Mr. Kodouri implied about possibilities for physics processing on graphics chips, he did not reveal any performance benefits estimations concerning the matter. In fact, AGEIA, the developer of the world’s first PPU, also does not talk about performance of its product. Source: http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20051005202331.html ATi 9700 (R300) is not a SM3.0 compliant model... only SM2.0. Here's more about the ATi presentation: -> http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/908/computex_2006_video_of_ati_s_hardware_physics_in_action/index.html
Hellfire Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 During last week's E3 event in Los Angeles, cross-platform middleware physics solution provider Havok announced support for the Wii, Nintendo's upcoming next-generation video game console platform. The GameCube's current library of software titles feature more than fifteen games that utilize Havok middleware, and this announcement confirms the continued support of Nintendo by Havok. "Havok has become synonymous with state-of-the-art physics in games in recent years," said Ramin Ravanpey, Director of Software Development Support, Nintendo of America. "With this announcement from Havok, we feel Wii developers have another critical tool in their hands that helps unleash the real magic of the Wii platform." Through the use of Havok FX and GPU technology, game developers are able to implement a range of physical effects like debris, smoke, and fluids that add detail and believability to Havok’s physics system. Havok FX is cross-platform, takes advantage of current and next-generation GPU technology, and utilizes the native power of Shader Model 3 class graphics cards to deliver effect physics that integrate seamlessly with Havok’s physics technology found in Havok Complete. “With Havok FX we can explore new types of visual effects that add realism into Hellgate: London,†commented Tyler Thompson, Technical Director, Flagship Studios. “Given the widespread installed base of GPUs and the incredible performance of the new Nvidia GeForce 7900 boards, Havok FX was a natural choice." http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=9308
SpinesN Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 Physics effects can be done on the GPU. In fact even audio acceleration can be done on the gpu. It is just another chip that happens to be good at mathsy stuff. A seperate PPU is just marketing crap. i.e. Easy for the non technical user to understand but actrually not always necessary or indeed helpful. Both the instances you described can be done if the GPU manufacturers provide the right resources. I hope the wii GPU chip has such features. Iceberg style. http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=226&type=expert&pid=3 http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/03/20/nvidia_havok_gpu_physics/ http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060526-6932.html Well of course any processing unit can do whatever. I meant that they were going to use graphics functions (SM3 as pedro pointed out) to accelerate the physics. The down side is it only does effects as I mentioned before. It will calculate how bits of a wall will crumble when the wall is shot but those bits will never interact with each other or anything else. This is the downside of graphics card based physics.
system_error Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 Well of course any processing unit can do whatever. I meant that they were going to use graphics functions (SM3 as pedro pointed out) to accelerate the physics. The down side is it only does effects as I mentioned before. It will calculate how bits of a wall will crumble when the wall is shot but those bits will never interact with each other or anything else. This is the downside of graphics card based physics. That is not the only problem - the GPU now is only able to calculte the graphical result of physical interaction which is less amazing in my eyes because that is nothing special. The main problem is that you draw processing power from the GPU away and also drain the memory. A dedicated physic unit is a lot better - even though I am not yet convinced about the advantages of the AGEIA PPU I favour it. I prefer realistic enhancements over visual ones. Developers still don't care about that. GRAW supports the AGEIA PPU and except more debris when something explodes nothing happend. You can't even shoot someone through a glass windows. Right now physics are overrated - Halflife 2 had it as a gimmick and not more happend. Wii can work without that stuff.
blender Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 This is a good game to demonstrate what physics can add. Note the high spec required for a simple looking game http://www.armadillorun.com/
system_error Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 Actually ATI showed physical calculations based on their GPUs today at the Computex 2006. Because of the high processing power needed ATI recommends at least 2 GPUs. A X1900 for the graphic and a X1600 for the phsyic part. The rest is a lot of PR talk: ATI better than NVIDIA, better than a dedicated PPU, .... etc.
DCK Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 That is not the only problem - the GPU now is only able to calculte the graphical result of physical interaction which is less amazing in my eyes because that is nothing special. The main problem is that you draw processing power from the GPU away and also drain the memory. A dedicated physic unit is a lot better - even though I am not yet convinced about the advantages of the AGEIA PPU I favour it. I prefer realistic enhancements over visual ones. Developers still don't care about that. GRAW supports the AGEIA PPU and except more debris when something explodes nothing happend. You can't even shoot someone through a glass windows. Right now physics are overrated - Halflife 2 had it as a gimmick and not more happend. Wii can work without that stuff. If the library is to work with the Havok library, the exact same one as the Ageia chip, how come it can only do the graphical result? I thought they pulled it off this way because shaders own at doing floating points and therefore physics in general, not just images. Anyway, this should take a serious load of the CPU and places it on the GPU but if that's a good thing I don't know. If the Hollywood has a big shading capacity, it's an improvement, but otherwise it could cost performance.
system_error Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 If the library is to work with the Havok library, the exact same one as the Ageia chip, how come it can only do the graphical result? Don't ask me from what I have heard at Computex 2006 it seems that GPU physics are bound to more particles, realistic fog, ...
wackman Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 does any of you guys know whether this concerns the Wii? Ati makes more stuff than just Wii components...
seamus_aran Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 I very much doubt the physics chip will be used in the Wii. I have no basis for that opinion but... no.
DCK Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 does any of you guys know whether this concerns the Wii? Ati makes more stuff than just Wii components... It's already been hinted by some developers there is 'physics simulation' in the Wii (Elebits seems to use it) and this is probably the technology that does it. It's not a different chip, the technology uses the shaders in the Wii to do the calculation. In theory it doesn't cost anything as it just runs on a part of the GPU, but they'll probably add some extra shaders to ensure it can do everything they want. Developers only have to license the Havok physics engine to use it, but it's probably not very expensive if you compare it to writing a good library yourself.
DiemetriX Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 Is this something the Wii might do with its GPU? http://www.mojoflix.com/Video/Nice-Effect.html
DCK Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 Maybe. It probably can't be rendered by any physics chip in real time right now, but who knows. Physics extensions, even if they only produce 'visual' effects, will help much with simulation of liquid. Liquid simulation is mostly done to make a game look great only, so it's likely it'll be used much for that.
conzer16 Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 Is this of any benefit to you tech guys? Clickedy clickedy click?
djamb3 Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 geez... These all techy words make my head hurt... :p Relax with this cute pic
Hellfire Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 I very much doubt the physics chip will be used in the Wii. I have no basis for that opinion but... no. http://www.revo-europe.com/forum/showpost.php?p=157484&postcount=529
DCK Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 Relax with this cute pic Do you have a wallpaper version of that :awesome: @ conzer: I'm not sure what it means, but it's probably the reason that Mario Galaxy and Brawl looked more advanced than any other title - new shader technology. It does prove to the people (yes James McGeachie that's you) who didn't believe it yet that the hardware will be a significant upgrade from the GameCube hardware.
Hellfire Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 Do you have a wallpaper version of that :awesome: @ conzer: I'm not sure what it means, but it's probably the reason that Mario Galaxy and Brawl looked more advanced than any other title - new shader technology. It does prove to the people (yes James McGeachie that's you) who didn't believe it yet that the hardware will be a significant upgrade from the GameCube hardware. They won't be satisfied until they see Ps3 like graphics.
DiemetriX Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 @Djamb3 Emmm.. Hi... -- I'm Sure that Wii wil look a lot better than Current Gen consoles. And I think games like MP, Ninja Gaiden, Halo2, RE4 allready looks Amazing.
Dante Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 Nintendo management policy briefing Summary - Wii is not the next generation machine. "What should appearance be Wii while the industry is shifting to a portable type?"(president Iwata) President Iwata analyzes for it to leave the game market untouched by NINTENDO DS appearance and to have shifted a portable game machine from the type hardware to the center. The concept of Wii was said, "Game machine that naturally infiltrated life" basing this. Nintendo puts 'nintendogs' and 'It is and a forest very stricken' and 'DS training of the adult that strengthens the brain', etc. on the market by NINTENDO DS, and has achieved the game population expansion. This is a result that the title of the idea match is accepted to the market. ｢The paradigm shift from past "Processing performance supremacy principle" happened by NINTENDO DS. It thinks this to be an occurrence ..machine (Wii) of leaving untouched... ｣Do..generation..word..so far..extension..line..evolution..show..generation..Iwata..president.The tone was strengthened with other hardness , saying that "Make a clear distinction". - "..hostility of everyone of family.. hardness" and emphasis. Then, what concrete function is put in Wii because it becomes "..merging in life.. hardness"?Wii hears of the voice "The spec is low" compared with PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360. However, "The advance in technology has been only used for a different direction from the route so far" and it refuses ..this.. ..president Iwata... The main body doesn't become obstructive thin, and small though doesn't correspond to HD (high definition) Wii. It is quiet and power consumption is also a little. A wireless controller for whom everyone can intuitively use the new services such as virtual consoles and Wii Connect 24 in the development schedule and above all like the television remote control is a big feature. Even I am engineer's fag end. I feel a beautiful screen in the charm very much. However, the size of hardness grows if it starts achieving it, the fan turns annoyingly, the development cost of software soars, and all commodities are made a masterpiece. Service like Wii Connect24 cannot be developed. In short, it is thought that the balance is important. Where is the latest technology turned on, and here is important. ｣(same as above) It is emphasized that choices "Processing performance supremacy principle" dared not to be chosen in developing the next generation machine. Being not able ""Dared" Did not choose" is a big difference. Care about Wii to the end ..going forward as "Heterodoxy child" of the industry.. by an original controller and service. The concept similarly declares many turn on "It seems to be Wii" title at a main body, a sale, and a simultaneous period on a soft side , saying that "A revolutionary paradigm can shift when it was able to be important to propose the usage in which it is interested respectively of the family, and to achieve it". It seems to prepare beginning that sticks to life that 'DS training of the adult that strengthens the brain' built up the genre of the brain activation though a concrete content was avoided. - The game of 500 yen and 1000 yen also : in a virtual console. ? A new remark : about a virtual console to which the eyeball function and the game of Wii are delivered. It is first family computer, Nintendo Super Entertainment System, NINTENDO DS, a game cube, and PC engine. ､A new plan of "It wants the new work of a compact making to play for 500 yen or 1000 yen" (same as above) went out though it had been reported only that a past work of the mega-drive etc. was able to play. In the basis of this plan, there is thought of president Iwata "I want to put the brake on the flow that all commodities that even forcibly add the mode and sell it for 5800 yen though it is a simple content of the game are made a masterpiece", and a strong desire that a compact price of a compact commodity is put. Various variations seem to arise though the price class of the software of Wii had been assumed to be only 50 dollars or less up to now. Moreover, it seems to step on compact game development when leading to a new creator excavation. The start time of a virtual console is referred, and it is Mr. Iwata , saying that "It is said to the developer, "Let's start at three seconds" in the inquisitive though it is likely not to go in all the games". It is worth, ends, NINTENDO DS is considered strongly, and this is a glad specification for the user in freedom including play. - In the synchronization of Wii and DS, 'Pokemon' is the first bounces. Do it cut against the backdrop of power that NINTENDO DS is ..-.. terrific ..the start dash that Wii is good..? About the synchronization of Wii and DS that is completely enshrouded to the veil up to now, it is assumed, "I want to make beginning glad when it originally has NINTENDO DS, and there is Wii in the house", makes NINTENDO DS a touch screen controller, and the DS software of the trial version that likens Wii to the DS station in the shop through the download service and the television screen is said that it will think about the playing enhancing element. In addition, a concrete remark also :. - Sale schedule of soft 'Pocket monster battle Revolution' for Wii within the year. Soft 'Pocket monster diamond' and 'Pocket monster pearl' for NINTENDO DS of the sale schedule for this autumn are them. It corresponds to the voice chat besides being able to make a user all over the world and the Pokemon done in battle by the Wi-Fi connection correspondence when it explains this software, and to exchange it first of all, evolution dramatic as the game can be played will be accomplished though it is a talk. President Iwata seems to put considerable power , saying that "Because 'Pokemon' is exploded in the form of the height, the Wi-Fi connection has been continued". It is correct that this software pulls the main body of NINTENDO DS more greatly, and the first bounce title it that synchronizes with Wii very much also obviously :. Pokemons of 2D in hand become 3D very much if software is opened to NINTENDO DS, and exclusive use soft 'Pocket monster battle Revolution' is put in Wii and fighting is started on the television. It is possible to expect it of development only that correspondence to Wi-Fi is thought, and the Pokemon doesn't change from 2D into 3D that seems to be Nintendo. 'Pocket monster battle Revolution' is called a schedule put on the market in winter. It promises to propose a new game style through the network , saying that "It is thought that the use of the Internet used only to fight is narrow" though it overlapped with the remark with E3 about service "Wii Connect 24" that the continuous connection for 24 hours is kept by the power saving even if the power supply of the main body of Wii is turned off. How are results in the Wi-Fi connection made the best use of? - A detailed announcement of Wii is September. And, the price and the release date of Wii about which it is anxious most. This is declared to be "The chance to announce in around September this year is made". It aims at six million hard shipment numbers and soft 17 million pieces this term about the number of the target sales , saying that "It is thought that we are failures if not far selling from the game cube because it was a challenger for ten years". Video of Nintendo's Presentation(Pokemon at 1:25)
SpinesN Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 My view is this. Nintendo has not confirmed system specs and a ppu would have a hard time getting in based on the cost of the wii. Blogs can't be trusted as a reliable source of info so my position has not changed. On a side note any blog saying there is a ppu and has dedicated ram is even more wrong. Nintendo knows that unified memory is much better for consoles as it allows developers to split usage as they please (microsoft also knows this). On a side note I don't doubt the gpu physics will be enabled in the wii as that is mostly a software issue but, when doing effects physics on the gpu it will be taking rendering power away from the gpu as well as giving the gpu more stuff to render (more particles flying around). So if it is there I don't think we will be seeing it used for much more than subtle applications (maybe the way a body of water looks).
Shyguy Posted June 7, 2006 Posted June 7, 2006 so much on gfx when Nintendo say time and time again, gfx will not be the main point of Wii. The New Zelda is about the perfect game graphicly, it has nothing on 360 / Wii / PS3 capabilities, but i will not be impressed as much by advancing these further, Zelda is such a beautiful looking game, without that much power behind the GPU compared to the competition, but because of the colours and level design by Nintendo, it yet seems more impressive to our eyes. 3D Sensoring Controller, has sold me enought, nevermind the VC
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