Goron_3 Posted June 1, 2008 Posted June 1, 2008 I'm not gonna bother replying to hellfires comment, it's long and i've got revision to do. Either way, I played this early for about 30 minutes before lunch. It's quite cool, though Ike is stupidly overpowered. I swear all of his air moves can KO.
Hellfire Posted June 1, 2008 Posted June 1, 2008 I'm not gonna bother replying to hellfires comment, it's long and i've got revision to do. It is long :P Go revise, i just want it to be clear that I always understood what you were saying, but that doesn't mean I have to agree, because we clearly want Smash for different reaons. This is nothing personal, just a debate. Either way, I played this early for about 30 minutes before lunch. It's quite cool, though Ike is stupidly overpowered. I swear all of his air moves can KO. But wasn't recovering very easy? Oh no he didn't!
Goron_3 Posted June 1, 2008 Posted June 1, 2008 It is long :P Go revise, i just want it to be clear that I always understood what you were saying, but that doesn't mean I have to agree, because we clearly want Smash for different reaons. This is nothing personal, just a debate. But wasn't recovering very easy? Oh no he didn't! You opponent is dead before he even gets a chance to come back to the stage lol.
The Bard Posted June 1, 2008 Posted June 1, 2008 I'd say that they've just levelled the playing field by cutting out the exploits that you and Goron were probably used to (not getting at you here by the way) in Melee. I think that's fair and gives people more of a chance rather than not being able to get a hit in on their superpowered friend, such as in Melee. Yeah, but you're not exactly one concerned with skill are you sir chainsaw fiend. Roflhax
Hellfire Posted June 1, 2008 Posted June 1, 2008 You opponent is dead before he even gets a chance to come back to the stage lol. I know, I was half kidding, but it does somewhat relate to your arguments about being too easy to recover (because it isn't as exagerated as you're making it out to be) and that racking up damage is useless if Ike for example has attacks like that :P But this is just one character, so yeah, just kidding. Yeah, but you're not exactly one concerned with skill are you sir chainsaw fiend. Roflhax That's exactly the point, people concerned with what you see as skill (read knowing how to play Melee with advanced tachniques mostly) are a minority. That doesn't mean Brawl doesn't take skill, that would mean a guy who's playing for the first time can mop the floor with an experienced player, which he can't, the game still has lots to learn and skills to be had, they're just not the same as in Melee. Yes, the game is more accessible, no, that isn't bad. I prefer to be able to play Brawl and have fun and a chance, specially now that it's online than to fuck multiplayer completly like with MK:DS and snaking, because there are players that don't even let you breathe.
Tellyn Posted June 1, 2008 Posted June 1, 2008 Yeah, but you're not exactly one concerned with skill are you sir chainsaw fiend. Roflhax I'm surprised you remember that.
The Bard Posted June 1, 2008 Posted June 1, 2008 The sound of a chainsaw revving through McMad's screams of "SHIIIIIT HEEES ON YEEEER SIX!!" still keep me up at night.
Zell Posted June 1, 2008 Posted June 1, 2008 I'd say that they've just levelled the playing field by cutting out the exploits that you and Goron were probably used to (not getting at you here by the way) in Melee. I think that's fair and gives people more of a chance rather than not being able to get a hit in on their superpowered friend, such as in Melee. While that's all probably true, they still haven't added anything. I wouldn't have minded if they had added in new things to replace the things they got rid of. It's just that all they've done is removed most of the advance techniques and simplyfied the gameplay down to make the rest ineffective, which has just made the whole experience a hell of a lot shallower, and one of Smash's main draws was the game's hidden depth. To me, Melee was a step forward and Brawl is a step back, though a very expansive and well presented one at that.
Hellfire Posted June 1, 2008 Posted June 1, 2008 Well I definitily can't agree, specially because a fighting system isn't as simple as adding and removing hidden techniques, there are new things and the whole game feels new. However you can have your opinion, I'm just saying that saying the system is broken is simply wrong.
Deathjam Posted June 1, 2008 Posted June 1, 2008 Damn some of you guys are really killing the "smash is coming to europe soon!" feeling that I have.
Goron_3 Posted June 1, 2008 Posted June 1, 2008 Well I definitily can't agree, specially because a fighting system isn't as simple as adding and removing hidden techniques, there are new things and the whole game feels new. However you can have your opinion, I'm just saying that saying the system is broken is simply wrong. ffs. Forget techniques. The brawl fighting system is weaker. It may feel better to you...so what? Maybe its because it IS stripped down? it's not really an opinion to say it's stripped down a bit, it's pretty much a fact lol. The fighting system in this game basically ONLY revolves around exchanging hits with an opponent (what with comboing and hitstun out); that's a first for a fighting game for a long time. Anyway, look what we've done to poor deathjam. Go brawl!
ShadowV7 Posted June 1, 2008 Posted June 1, 2008 To me, Melee had exploits which many people used, but they removed them for Brawl, but the fighting mechanics aren't big enough to seperate the skilled folk from the n00bs that spam attacks. They could of added things in Brawl to broaden the system, not exactly the same as Melee, but adding features in to seperate the good from the bad sort of thing and add depth to the fighting system to make it more intense and heated between folk. Now it's more focused on the player knowing every single attack on characters, knowing what attacks to be used and counter it and predicting movements.
Shino Posted June 1, 2008 Posted June 1, 2008 Oh c'mon! You people talk like there's no side step or dodges.
Dyson Posted June 1, 2008 Posted June 1, 2008 I wish I could say I still played this like I played Melee when I got it (2 years after release no less). The 360 has eclipsed it unfortunately. Weirdly enough however, if this game were on the 360, I think I'd be playing it a lot more - simply for the reason that the 360's online implementation is absolutely fantastic and I constantly find myself using the private chat etc. The Wii gets no time because of the online capabilities of the 360 and in fact doesn't even get turned on because I'd rather use the 360..it's a shame. Don't get me wrong, I still like my Wii but..not as much as I liked my Gamecube.
Hellfire Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 ffs. Forget techniques. The brawl fighting system is weaker. It may feel better to you...so what? Maybe its because it IS stripped down? it's not really an opinion to say it's stripped down a bit, it's pretty much a fact lol. The fighting system in this game basically ONLY revolves around exchanging hits with an opponent (what with comboing and hitstun out); that's a first for a fighting game for a long time. Anyway, look what we've done to poor deathjam. Go brawl! For crying out loud man, stop trying to force your opinions on others! How the hell is a game stripped down if the features that were taken out aren't noticed by most? I'm not allowed to think the brawl fighting system is better, because you prefer the old one, so it becomes fact? Seriously, we got the memo, some of us got it before Brawl was even finished, just let go. Go revise or something. To me, Melee had exploits which many people used, but they removed them for Brawl, but the fighting mechanics aren't big enough to seperate the skilled folk from the n00bs that spam attacks. They could of added things in Brawl to broaden the system, not exactly the same as Melee, but adding features in to seperate the good from the bad sort of thing and add depth to the fighting system to make it more intense and heated between folk. Now it's more focused on the player knowing every single attack on characters, knowing what attacks to be used and counter it and predicting movements. That's not true, skilled folk don't need to take advantage of hitstun (to make combos like in Melee, God forbid if you need to play differently) or other things to be skilled, noobs will always be noobs and won't stand much of a chance against good players. Specially now that spamming won't do much. I never relied on those kind of things and there still was room for ownage, competition, etc... To me knowing the characters and predicting is what makes fighting games exciting, Smash still has this and it still has depth, enough depth to keep people playing to get better and without all the obscure mechanics (although there are still many) most people can play online and even offline without having to give up, because they need to learn all that stuff just to move 2 inches. It would be MK: DS all over again, when you basically can only play against people you know.
The Bard Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 You might think it's better, and thats your opinion. What's fact is that it IS fucking stripped down. Just because you don't notice what's gone doesn't make it irrelevant, it just makes your appreciation of what the games are incomplete. Regardless of how you see these techniques, the fact is that you CAN do them, and you can do them with regular controller input, if you want to call it an accident or a glitch the feel fucking free to do so, but remember that it was the cancelling "glitch" that made SF2 what it was, and now it's a staple of that series, and every other competitive fighter known to man (yes, that includes Soul Calibur, VF, Tekken, Guilty Gear etc.), and one which has been improved upon in all of SF's subsequent iterations. It does not fucking matter what the developers intentions were, because we'll never know them. What does matter is that the data on that 2.5 inch piece of plastic is there for you to interpret as you see fit; If you like Brawl because of it's reduced potential to be a competitive fighter, then thats your call, what Goron is saying is what makes it so damn awesome for you is the reason it's shit for him.
Hellfire Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 And he can say that it's shit for him or not, he cannot say however that the fighting system is broken, because it isn't. If you think my apretiation of games is incomplete because of that (another thing it's not that I don't notice it, it's that I choose not to use it) I can say the same of you, because you focus so much on a certain aspect of the game that you can't view things with a wide perspective. You also can't deny that most Melee's competitive players are too stuck on the past and don't want to let go, which is fine by me, people can prefer whatever they want to. And while some things were stripped down, others were added, why don't people talk of that? You make it sound as they made Smash incredibely basic and shallow when it isn't. This discussion will go on forever, so fuck it, this is turning into smash boards.
The Bard Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 Haha, what a crock of bullshit. "I'm aware of them, I just decide not to use them." And you're presuming that competitive players' appreciation of the game is limited because they know and play the game more than you? Get your head out of your ass. I didn't say the fighting system in brawl is "broken," I think that's an exaggeration, seeing as it's great fun at times. But is it a fighter in the same league as Melee? Hell to the no, and you can't say shit against that because you don't play either competitively. I think you're just pissed that there are people out there who would utterly penetrate every orifice in your quivering body at Smash bros, because they know the game inside out, and you're using the "well, lol, they're not in the tutorial, so they're not meant to be used" card. What exactly, was added to Brawl to make it a better competitive fighter? Absolutely fuck all, especially in comparison with what was changed to make it simpler. You make it sound as they made Smash incredibely basic and shallow when it isn't. Nobody said it was incredibly basic. Just not as complex as Melee. Why do you seem to be taking this so personally? It's like someone just insulted a family member or something.
Eenuh Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 Wow guys, calm down and stop the useless name calling. O.o I have no idea what you guys are talking about when you say it's stripped down (or mentions of wavedashing and hitstun and whatever). To me it feels like it's mostly still the same as Melee, just not completely. But then again I'm not a competitive player at all so what do I know.
darksnowman Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 Wow guys, calm down and stop the useless name calling. O.o If Eenuh said it, and I quote her... you'll listen to her, right? Why do you seem to be taking this so personally? It's like someone just insulted a family member or something. I dunno. Hellfire gets a bit worked up about games, lol. From reading this thread over the months and past Melee threads, I've developed alot of respect for Goron 3, Zell, you spoony Bard and anyone else thats been talking about Melee and Brawl in such a scientific way as you guys do. Ages ago I tried out those techs in Melee, but they are pointless to me- I practically never played the game at all. I don't look on Melee as an amazing fighter (not even an amazing game to me- I got it cos I loved Smash 64, but I never got into Melee the same) but I like to see that other people plumb the hidden depths of it. : peace: Its fine for the discussion to continue, as long as it doesn't become something petty, mmkay? Plus with Brawl almost out here... you might be putting people off it, like Deathjam! What I really wanna know is: does Killer Instinct have this "cancelling glitch?"
Deathjam Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 You know, I have noticed a disturbing virus spreading throughout these boards lately. I think I shall dub it the 'WALL OF TEXT'. Huge reams of text are appearing making my already tired eyes ache and practically unable to read for a few mins. I think something needs to be done about it. Save my eyes from this torture please. EDIT: And nothing is gonna stop me getting brawl. Will even borrow money if I have to
Jonnas Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 *sigh* A few points to make: 1-Bard, cut a bit on the swearing. You're the only one here sounding like he got a family member insulted. 2-There are two different sides in fighting games: Combos and Mind-games. The Mind-games system is used in every fighting game (obviously) and Combos are used by most (some more than others). Personally, I think the mind-games aspect is the most exciting in a fighting game. Predicting your opponent's moves, finding an opening, keeping a good defense, etc. After landing a hit, the combo side kicks in, allowing you to hit your opponent multiple times for massive damage (I'm not so fond of this one. It basically means that you're dead for not prediciting a quick, basic move. It also means you need to memorize a combo list, instead of a "basic moves" list.). Melee has a good dosage of both (as do many fighting games). That's why it was so popular in the competitive scene. That's also why many dislike Brawl, since the Combo aspect was heavily reduced, while the mind-games pretty much remain the same. This is the point Goron_3, Zell and The bard are trying to make. Soul Calibur II is held as an excellent fighting game, and there are practically no combos. It's all about the mind-games. Hellfire seems to think Brawl is similar in that aspect. Of course, he doesn't play competitively, hence why he never bothered to memorize combos in Melee. Seeing as Brawl has less combos, he (as several others) is more in his element. This is the point he was trying to get across. 3-There's really no need to continue that discussion, though. Let's just get excited for Brawl! Woot!
Falcon_BlizZACK Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 God i haven't played this game for AGES! I remember how i loved it for the first week and then i realised how basic the game was (edgeguarding is basically out, no combos *sigh*). I dunno, the music is GREAT and one of the things i love about the game, but it's quite meh in other departments real shame. Man, I felt like this too. If the online modes were much more deeper and easier this would have been a 'once a day' sort of game, regardless of the n00b-friendly gameplay. The dodge and side-step is enough for me to humiliate any pesky n00b spamming Kirby's Down-B attack.
The Bard Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 Soul Calibur II is held as an excellent fighting game, and there are practically no combos. Yeah. You're clearly taking the piss.
Deathjam Posted June 2, 2008 Posted June 2, 2008 *sigh* A few points to make: 1-Bard, cut a bit on the swearing. You're the only one here sounding like he got a family member insulted. 2-There are two different sides in fighting games: Combos and Mind-games. The Mind-games system is used in every fighting game (obviously) and Combos are used by most (some more than others). Personally, I think the mind-games aspect is the most exciting in a fighting game. Predicting your opponent's moves, finding an opening, keeping a good defense, etc. After landing a hit, the combo side kicks in, allowing you to hit your opponent multiple times for massive damage (I'm not so fond of this one. It basically means that you're dead for not prediciting a quick, basic move. It also means you need to memorize a combo list, instead of a "basic moves" list.). Melee has a good dosage of both (as do many fighting games). That's why it was so popular in the competitive scene. That's also why many dislike Brawl, since the Combo aspect was heavily reduced, while the mind-games pretty much remain the same. This is the point Goron_3, Zell and The bard are trying to make. Soul Calibur II is held as an excellent fighting game, and there are practically no combos. It's all about the mind-games. Hellfire seems to think Brawl is similar in that aspect. Of course, he doesn't play competitively, hence why he never bothered to memorize combos in Melee. Seeing as Brawl has less combos, he (as several others) is more in his element. This is the point he was trying to get across. 3-There's really no need to continue that discussion, though. Let's just get excited for Brawl! Woot! Excellent post. For me smash is more than just the moves. Use (and abuse) of items can also determine skill. Obviously, when you take out items, you take out the random factor that is employed in the game, leaving it down to pure skill if you pic certain stages, but you are also taking out some of the fun factor. There is nothing like throwing a star rod at your foe, causing them to exit the stage at a ridiculous angle that should bring laughs from all players. Being able to throw items clean across the stage with accuracy and power is harder than it looks when the battles are so busy. For the really skillful, (at least in melee) you can time it so that when an item is thrown at you, if you press A at the right moment, you will actually catch the item and now be able throw it back at your foe or you can use your shield and create a similar but less powerful effect to when one of the star fox crew uses their reflector. This is best though when you have the full four players going at it though and as far as I know, this is still in brawl, but seems to have been completely overlooked. Probably because the game likes to have barrels and bombs spawn right next to you when you are doing a move, or just completey indisposed, causing you to be ejected from the arena at no fault of your own. BUT its not like it only happens to one person.
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