GQTDM: Is Hyrule Warriors Canon?

[Cube]

8 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

I don't see the issue personally. It was always a bit dubious how they could end a game with failure and defeat and most of the characters dying.

That was the entirety of the appeal of the game to me. Could have ended the game with a flash through BotW and a teaser about what the plot for BotW 2 could be about.

[Jonnas]

3 hours ago, Glen-i said:

Given this theory I have. Hyrule Warriors would happen at the end of the pictured timeline, sometime after all the other games happen. HW merges the three timelines together, then Age of Calamity/BotW happen after some time after Hyrule Warriors.

But wasn't your theory that HW smooshes the timelines temporarily, but they all return to their respective origins afterwards? That's why we were talking about small groups of migrants. It makes little sense to say HW happens simultaneously in all 3 timelines, when Cia & co should only exist in one of the "branches". After the events of HW, the branches would go back to merry split they were before.

If the smoosh was permanent, that raises further questions: which Royal Line becomes the "default" one? What happened to the water from the Great Sea? Are there three Ganons (the beast-pig from the "Fall" timeline, the reincarnated Ganondorf from FSA, and the one that's petrified at the bottom of the ocean) existing simultaneously? Not to say it's impossible, I'm just saying there's a lot more to explain in that scenario (and we still need to establish which one of the branches started the smooshing).

3 hours ago, Glen-i said:

As for Zelda being quite knowledgeable about the three different timelines. It certainly could be related to her being Hylia reincarnated, but then how do you explain Tetra? If being one of the many Zeldas clued you in to that kind of knowledge, shouldn't she have been knowledgeable of all the Zeldas before her? That wouldn't make sense because she's absolute clueless about her heritage until King Daphnes reveals it to her.

Like Ike said, knowledge isn't the same thing as wisdom, or spiritual affinity. Knowledge, somewhat like wealth, is something you collect, amass, increase, and share. It's not an inherent attribute of any one person, even when you're born to a family that's rich with it. Tetra's clever, considering her circumstances as a rogue bandit, but her family lost all knowledge that a Royal line would be privy to.

This is where me not playing HW hurts, because I don't know how much that Zelda knew. Did she know about the timelines as well? If so, that implies that an even earlier incident exposed it.

The BotW Zelda having that knowledge makes sense. If races from the three timelines exist simultaneously, all the Royal family needed to do was communicate: learn and record their individual histories directly from them. How the races got there in the first place is the real question.

3 hours ago, Glen-i said:

 

  Completely off-topic (Reveal hidden contents)

Are you forgetting how the Oracle games end? Finishing both entries after linking them ends with Link sailing away on the raft from the Link's Awakening intro which strongly hints that the Oracle Games happen right before Awakening.

Link's Awakening ends on Link sitting on what remains on that raft after it got destroyed looking up in the sky and watching Marin and the Wind Fish fly away.

And then Marin and the Wind Fish get dragged into Hyrule Warriors through Cia's shenanigans. Assuming Hyrule Warriors is canon.

Doing it the other way around means that Link goes sailing, gets struck by lightning, magically gets to land somehow, also magically gets a horse, and then goes sailing again. It's just weird.

 

 

Spoiler

I didn't remember the boat you were talking about (I only saw that ending once, a long time ago), so I checked Youtube. The linked OoS ending has the boat, the linked OoA ending (the one I got) has no boat, though the video I checked might be incomplete. Assuming the boat's there for both versions, I see what you mean.

The reason it makes more sense for LA to come before the Oracles, is that Nightmare takes the form of some of Link's fears, like Agahnim and Ganon. But no Onox, Veran, or Twinrova. Since the game makes reference to LttP, but none to the Oracles, it stands to reason that they hadn't happened yet.

Link coming back to land can be explained in any number of ways (passing ships, favourable currents, Wind Fish and/or seagull-Marin helping him, etc). There's no issue with Link getting a horse out of nowhere, though. He befriends a flying bear, a kangaroo, and a dodongo almost instantly. The horse is just one of many riding buddies he has.

But yeah, now I can see these three adventures taking place in any order. Even with LA in the middle (it would explain how Link got out of the ocean: the Triforce teleported him to where he was supposed to go).

Edited January 26, 2021 by Jonnas

[Ike]

36 minutes ago, Cube said:

But until the demo came out, they also said it was the events leading up to BotW and that turned out to be a lie.

Oh yeah, they totally miss-sold it.

30 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

Those LIARS!!

I don't see the issue personally. It was always a bit dubious how they could end a game with failure and defeat and most of the characters dying.

We know what happens, all they had to do was end AoC at the point Link goes into the recovery pod. They've shown worse in Majora's Mask.

AoC has caused a second timeline which is correct though.

[Ike]

8 minutes ago, Jonnas said:

This is where me not playing HW hurts, because I don't know how much that Zelda knew. Did she know about the timelines as well? If so, that implies that an even earlier incident exposed it.

That's a good point actually, Cia knew about the different heroes (she was basically a massive fangirl).

Some statues only responded to characters from a certain timeline, but it's hard to argue if that's part of the lore or a gameplay element (seems awfully specific for someone to implement).

[Glen-i]

1 hour ago, Ronnie said:

Those LIARS!!

I don't see the issue personally. It was always a bit dubious how they could end a game with failure and defeat and most of the characters dying.

Lufia 2 did it. And that was a SNES game. Similar concept to Age of Calamity. Lufia 1 had a little backstory about a group of heroes who fought the big bad but gave up their lives in the process. Lufia 2 was actually a prequel that expanded on this little backstory. Ridiculously ahead of it's time in that regard and despite the foregone conclusion, it was actually quite engaging.

While I think @Cube is wildly exaggerating, I did think it was a bit of a missed opportunity. Plenty of great stories end in tragedy. It would've hit so much harder if you played out the moments after Link is beaten. Two obvious ones that jump out are Impa getting Link to the Shrine of Resurrection and Zelda going to Hyrule Castle to start the 100 year process of containing Ganon.

This does have the side effect of effectively cutting a quarter of the playable characters though, because sticking that close to the original story would mean they effectively can't take part.

Just my thoughts on it. Like I said, this thread isn't really about Age of Calamity. Back to more important things.

1 hour ago, Jonnas said:

But wasn't your theory that HW smooshes the timelines temporarily, but they all return to their respective origins afterwards? That's why we were talking about small groups of migrants. It makes little sense to say HW happens simultaneously in all 3 timelines, when Cia & co should only exist in one of the "branches". After the events of HW, the branches would go back to merry split they were before.

If the smoosh was permanent, that raises further questions: which Royal Line becomes the "default" one? What happened to the water from the Great Sea? Are there three Ganons (the beast-pig from the "Fall" timeline, the reincarnated Ganondorf from FSA, and the one that's petrified at the bottom of the ocean) existing simultaneously? Not to say it's impossible, I'm just saying there's a lot more to explain in that scenario (and we still need to establish which one of the branches started the smooshing).

Like Ike said, knowledge isn't the same thing as wisdom, or spiritual affinity. Knowledge, somewhat like wealth, is something you collect, amass, increase, and share. It's not an inherent attribute of any one person, even when you're born to a family that's rich with it. Tetra's clever, considering her circumstances as a rogue bandit, but her family lost all knowledge that a Royal line would be privy to.

This is where me not playing HW hurts, because I don't know how much that Zelda knew. Did she know about the timelines as well? If so, that implies that an even earlier incident exposed it.

The BotW Zelda having that knowledge makes sense. If races from the three timelines exist simultaneously, all the Royal family needed to do was communicate: learn and record their individual histories directly from them. How the races got there in the first place is the real question.

  Deep dive into LA + Oracles (Hide contents)

I didn't remember the boat you were talking about (I only saw that ending once, a long time ago), so I checked Youtube. The linked OoS ending has the boat, the linked OoA ending (the one I got) has no boat, though the video I checked might be incomplete. Assuming the boat's there for both versions, I see what you mean.

The reason it makes more sense for LA to come before the Oracles, is that Nightmare takes the form of some of Link's fears, like Agahnim and Ganon. But no Onox, Veran, or Twinrova. Since the game makes reference to LttP, but none to the Oracles, it stands to reason that they hadn't happened yet.

Link coming back to land can be explained in any number of ways (passing ships, favourable currents, Wind Fish and/or seagull-Marin helping him, etc). There's no issue with Link getting a horse out of nowhere, though. He befriends a flying bear, a kangaroo, and a dodongo almost instantly. The horse is just one of many riding buddies he has.

But yeah, now I can see these three adventures taking place in any order. Even with LA in the middle (it would explain how Link got out of the ocean: the Triforce teleported him to where he was supposed to go).

I wanna start with the bit I've bolded. Because I was under the assumption you had played HW. I was clearly mistaken, my bad. I want to try and clarify some things

You're right in that we need to establish where HW is before all the other timelines get involved.

When Link and Zelda meet Koei Tecmo OC Lana, she tells them that Cia's job is to watch over Hyrule throughout the ages and observe all the different times Link and Zelda fight the forces of evil. Problem is, after seeing all the times Link is forever tied to Zelda because of the Triforce, she starts to get a biiiit jealous.

At this point in time, Ganondorf is sealed away by the Master Sword. But he's Ganondorf, so he somehow manages to exploit Cia's growing jealousy to convince her that she should be with Link. Anyway, Ganondorf helps her send an army of monsters to invade Hyrule and the game starts.

So it's not three Ganons at once. It's just one Ganondorf. And because it's Ganondorf, I think we can safely assume that it's not the fallen timeline. Which means it's one of the other two and that's not quite as obvious. Hyrule Warriors seems to slightly imply that it's the Four Swords Adventures one.

I base this on Cia's Palace. She's gone full on stalker and there's loads of statues and pictures of various incarnations of Link. Specifically, the ones from Skyward Sword, Ocarina of Time, Hyrule Warriors and Twilight Princess.

Now obviously HW Link features because that's the current Link at the time. SS and OoT being there tells us little apart from the fact that Cia knows what theose Links look like. But the fact that there's also a statue of Wolf Link (and a lack of Toon Link) tells us that TP has happened and Cia knows what happened there.

So simply put, Hyrule Warriors has to be after Four Swords Adventures.

With that established, I'm gonna try and explain my thoughts about your other points.

First of all, the only Zelda to get dragged to Hyrule Warriors was Tetra (Zelda from Spirit Tracks is also playable, but she's DLC and plays no part in the actual plot, so I'm not counting her). Tetra and King Daphnes go back to Wind Waker afterwards though, so the only royal line is HW Zelda. And if HW happens after FSA, then it has to be the royal line that descends from TP.

The smoosh isn't permanent, but I do believe some migrants from the other eras might have stayed behind in the HW era. Which would mean Rito and Zora can co-exist.

Yeah, you're right about why Tetra lacks knowledge of the royal family. Fair enough. I might be misremembering, but does BotW Zelda mention anything about the Wind Waker era in that speech about all the different times? I remember TP, SS and OoT being mentioned.

Spoiler

Gonna have to come clean about something. Despite the number of times I've played through the Oracle games, I've never played Ages second. Because why would you fight Ganon without Season's Hyper Slingshot and Roc's Cape!? So I've always assumed they had the same ending shot of Link sailing away. I wonder why they're different? That's just confusing!

Yes, you have a point about Onox and Veran not showing up in Awakening's Final Boss. But, and I think you already know what I'm going to say, but maybe that's because Awakening was developed before the Oracle games?

But now that you mention it, how cool would it have been if the Switch version added 2 phases to Nightmare based on the Onox and Veran fights? Now it feels like a missed opportunity... Like how Wart wasn't in Mario 3D World, seems like such an obvious, cool idea.

I mean, yeah. Link could've gotten back to land in a number of ways. Maybe it's just me, but it does feel like the Wind Fish just kinda ditches him after they wake up.

2 hours ago, Ike said:

Some statues only responded to characters from a certain timeline, but it's hard to argue if that's part of the lore or a gameplay element (seems awfully specific for someone to implement).

I know this goes against the spirit of this thread, but sometimes you have to accept that an excuse was needed to make the player escort and protect some other characters.

Because even I can't explain why such a ridiculously obtuse and specific mechanism was protecting the Master Sword.

[Jonnas]

3 hours ago, Glen-i said:

So simply put, Hyrule Warriors has to be after Four Swords Adventures.

Alright, that answers my questions (I was vaguely aware of the plot of HW, but not its details). The issues you bolded concerned the case in which the timelines were permanently squooshed, but if it's temporary, then Cia only borked the Child branch, and I'm a-ok with that notion.

3 hours ago, Glen-i said:

Yeah, you're right about why Tetra lacks knowledge of the royal family. Fair enough. I might be misremembering, but does BotW Zelda mention anything about the Wind Waker era in that speech about all the different times? I remember TP, SS and OoT being mentioned.

I too must come clean and admit I haven't played BotW yet (it's on the backlog, I'll get to it), but I know the general gist of the plot, and enough to understand the situation of Ritos and Zoras co-existing. Also Korok seeds being a thing. So I haven't seen the cutscenes.

But I think it's irrelevant whether Zelda knows or not of the Great Sea. If the references to those locations are only verbal, then your theory makes sense: the "time migrants" (that is, the Rito and Koroks) brought that knowledge with them, maybe HW Zelda even kept records of Cia's meddling, and that's that. In that case, my answer is Yes, Hyrule Warriors is canon, and is part of the Child Timeline, along with BotW.

Now, if there is further physical evidence in BotW of the timelines being permanently kablooshed (like a statue of Ganondorf lying around with a sword on his head, or something), then your theory doesn't make sense, as HW cannot explain that. In that case, my answer would be No, Glen-i has diddled us again.

I'm leaning yes right now, but I might revise this position when I do get around to playing BotW. Rest assured that I'll be on the lookout for stuff that could disprove your theory.

3 hours ago, Glen-i said:

 

  Uh-Oh! More Game Boy Zelda Off-Topic stuff! (Reveal hidden contents)

Gonna have to come clean about something. Despite the number of times I've played through the Oracle games, I've never played Ages second. Because why would you fight Ganon without Season's Hyper Slingshot and Roc's Cape!? So I've always assumed they had the same ending shot of Link sailing away. I wonder why they're different? That's just confusing!

Yes, you have a point about Onox and Veran not showing up in Awakening's Final Boss. But, and I think you already know what I'm going to say, but maybe that's because Awakening was developed before the Oracle games?

But now that you mention it, how cool would it have been if the Switch version added 2 phases to Nightmare based on the Onox and Veran fights? Now it feels like a missed opportunity... Like how Wart wasn't in Mario 3D World, seems like such an obvious, cool idea.

I mean, yeah. Link could've gotten back to land in a number of ways. Maybe it's just me, but it does feel like the Wind Fish just kinda ditches him after they wake up.

 

 

Spoiler

You know, I thought I had only played Ages second, but I think I did it the other way around at some point. I distinctly remember being surprised that the Queen of Labrynna had a fling with the skull Captain, which only happens when you do Seasons second. But other than that plot point, I'm all for playing Ages second. The stakes just feel higher in that game, so it's a nice evolution.

"LA was made before the Oracles" is a silly explanation. We're looking for Watsonian explanation, not Doylist ones!

I too feel like the Wind Fish just bailed. But I think seagull Marin stayed. She would've helped Link.

 

3 hours ago, Glen-i said:

Because even I can't explain why such a ridiculously obtuse and specific mechanism was protecting the Master Sword.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Jonnas

[drahkon]

*me reading this thread*

This is more confusing than Primer's plot.

[Ike]

Thought this would throw a spanner in the original question.

 

[Glen-i]

Everything I thought I knew was a lie...

[Jonnas]

Man, that Cherry gets around...

Honestly, to me, it only strengthens my argument that all it does is scramble physical location.

[Dcubed]

On 17/03/2021 at 7:35 AM, Jonnas said:

Man, that Cherry gets around...

Honestly, to me, it only strengthens my argument that all it does is scramble physical location.

But then how can there be more than one Mario!?

Plus... you know... The original Mario still dies!

[Jonnas]

6 hours ago, Dcubed said:

But then how can there be more than one Mario!?

There isn't. As per my previous post:

Quote

The Double Cherry does not create a second Mario at all. In order for the moral quandary to be raised, the clone must have its own identity, ideas, and decisions, even if, at the moment of the split, the minds feel like they're equal (albeit growing apart the more time passes, as the two identical entities gain more and more distinct life experiences). However, this is not what happens with The Double Cherry at all, for the second Mario cannot act independently from the first Mario at all. If Mario goes left, both go left, if one jumps, both jump. Literally their only difference is location in space. Because they share a mind, it's fair to say, this is not a second Mario: it's a second body for the one Mario.

When one of the bodies "dies"... it doesn't. It leaves no corpse. It poofs. Same thing happens when you finish a level. If the one remaining Mario body dies, then it completely falls off the stage, or leaves a corpse, or falls off the screen/4th wall. This never happens with the Cherry bodies, ergo, no life is being taken. The cherry "unphases" Mario's physical body into two separate vessels for a limited amount of time, and if one of them poofs, Mario's mind (or soul) reconvenes back into where the remaining body is.

In other words, the Double Cherry is not a "Prestige" kind of situation to begin with. Mario still exists, because no life is lost in the scenario that Glen-i opened the thread with.

So, in the scenario Ike posted, Mario is phased into two bodies. When Luigi hops on one, he takes the Cherry power for himself. In doing so, his own body phases into two, while Mario's soul reconvenes into the remaining body. Due to the unique nature of the interaction, Luigi's second body lies where Mario's second body used to be. When Mario then hops into one of the Luigis, the same process repeats.

Due to the nature of the process, their physical location changes, as if by teleport, but nobody dies. As such, I can only call the whole debacle "a scramble of physical location", because both Mario and Luigi are frequently phasing and unphasing between one and two bodies, while rotating the location of each. But no harm is coming to them.

Edited March 19, 2021 by Jonnas

[Dcubed]

That’s... honestly a reasonable explanation! Kudos!