EU Referendum - In/Out?

**Ashley** · June 30, 2016

(should have stuck to being Mayor bojo).

Don't you dare. Khan is the only good thing to happen politically for years :heh:

Or maybe.. How about N-E runs as a new alternative political party :P

Actually had the idea for a film about a political party being formed out of the young feeling like they keep getting shafted and boy would this period be a big part of that!

Pestneb · June 30, 2016

Don't you dare. Khan is the only good thing to happen politically for years

Apologies, I wasn't thinking. At least he did one thing right and dropped out of the london mayor job...

I wonder if he will fizzle out now, or if he will linger in the shadows...

**Rummy** · July 1, 2016

Interested, without wishing to be inflammatory, in what you Corbynites made of his campaigning and general presence during the referendum. It's changed how I view him, particularly after his rating his interest in staying in the EU at 7/10 seemingly confirming that he'd be happy enough with us out (I understand that in that clip he's criticizing certain aspects of the EU as an organisation rather than the idea of staying in, but I feel like a fortnight before the vote isn't the time to be offering such indifference in such a tight race)

Boris pulling out is a total shocker, but to my mind a massive relief. He's a cynic and a calculating prick, but Gove or May don't seem half as electable material - could finally pave the way for a labour government, assuming a general election is held in the next year or two. But I feel like we learnt learned last election that being too far left, and having too strange a personality doesn't win elections. And for all his success in opposition, I'd put money on Corbyn, again, not having the mainstream appeal to get in office. Fair play for sticking to his principles, but if labour blow it again I'll be devastated.

I think I'm increasingly coming to realise that, whilst they're all like it, Boris firmly is in it for Boris, and realises what a disaster and how shit he would be at PM. He can fluff and flounder in his comedy way quite often, but it isn't the sort of thing a PM can do. I reckon he'd like to just be at the top buddies whilst someone else is PM.

Corbyn during the EU referendum? Well, tbh I'm only behind Corbyn because I find him the most relatable face being exposed to me from the world of politics. All these Labour MPs resigning - I think fuck it, let them, maybe we'll get a good shakeup and have some more representative people taken to the forefront. I don't know them, I don't think much of them, but Corbyn - despite the media and others attempts, seems to still be standing. I don't quite understand what he's supposed to have done wrong but when you've got so many people gunning for a man who's resolutely standing by his decisions - well, it just makes me wonder some.

To come back to him during the referendum - what did we want or expect? I was sharing things left right and centre on facebook about it - to be mostly met with either pure agreement from other remainers, or blind resistance from a number of(not all) leavers. I didn't know enough unknowns to see what way they would be swayed - but again as I said, the 'remain' argument wasn't a particularly sexy or controversial one. Remain essentially said to maintain the status quo - and whilst so many are disillusioned with the current politicians and government when their lives are shit, trying to explain why the status quo is good is a very difficult argument to make. I think it was the guy who was on the last leg who said that many people could possibly have voted Leave because their lives feels so shit right now that they honestly didn't understand or believe that they could get any worse. I think Leave won on a large ticket of disillusionment and apathy to the current way of things.

Post-referendum though I'm impressed with Corbyn despite what he's fighting against, especially with his own people. I was glad to see he sacked Hilary Benn, when usually politicians resign, and I'm glad to see he's saying he'll continue to lead the party and stand democratically if there's a leadership contest when he's been pretty much voted in by the public people - the one place they seemed to find they had control or a say in politics. I didn't join to vote for him before, but if a leadership contest comes up again then I'm seriously contemplating it. As I said of all the politicians I get exposed to - he seems to be the one that might actually be able to do or achieve the things I would like, despite basically being attacked from every single angle right now.

Blade · July 1, 2016

Corbyn has always been anti-EU. He has never believed in it. People say he is principled and I do share that same view. He really should have just come out as a leaver (which he is) rather than fighting an half arsed campaign to remain in the EU.

Post referendum, well he immediately called upon the government to invoke Art 50 even though no-one has a plan.

Kav · July 1, 2016

Corbyn has always been anti-EU. He has never believed in it. People say he is principled and I do share that same view. He really should have just come out as a leaver (which he is) rather than fighting an half arsed campaign to remain in the EU.

Post referendum, well he immediately called upon the government to invoke Art 50 even though no-one has a plan.

I think he had to go in favour of Remain for the party, as they are mostly Remainers. He couldn't divide the party like Cameron and Boris did.

Now imagine if the Labour MPs stood by Corbyn, this is what I think the situation would be:

By calling on the Governent to invoke Article 50, he was essentially challenging them. Knowing the PM was a Remainer and not wanting to do it, it put pressure on the rest of the party whilst its in a state of limbo as the party was so split over the referendum.

Given that Corbyn is a Leaver and that he's called for Article 50 to be invoked, I think he may be the only one with some sort of plan.

The question is, does he outline his plan, thus giving it on a platter to the Tories for them to rescue their situation, or does he hold his cards to his chest, put pressure on the government to see it fracture further and then take advantage of the mess to push Labour to the forefront..?

Only now the Labour MPs are revolting and causing a divide amongst the party which rips up any form of plan that they may have had and balances out the problems in both Labour and the Tories instead of pushing Labour to the fore.

The public voted to Leave, so leaving is on the table. If we do, things will get worse before they get better. Corbyn is the only politician I have faith in doing the right thing for the common man during those times!

Choze · July 1, 2016

The whole Corbyn situation is a mess. He should have been given a chance to fail in his own time though. The timing of the coup was madness and pre mature for his supporters.

**Ashley** · July 1, 2016

This is a good read: https://m.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/4qqzyb/its_not_undemocratic_to_resist_the_brexit_result/?utm_source=mweb_redirect&compact=true

Pestneb · July 1, 2016

1)Sure, we can vote to return to the EU at some point in the future.

2)the UKIP got a lot of votes too.. I'm sure they supported the referendum... also, seeing how many people voted leave, it would suggest that the referendum was something that on balance the population wanted.

3)Nor could you have said which Bremain campaign would have won. If you split the leave vote you'd have to split the remain vote too.

4)Well.. point 1 he says that our democracy failed because the elected leader didn't have a mandate. Then this point suggest that the non mandate gave that same man the right to unilaterally go back on his election manifesto and declare we would stay in the EU?

I agree David was an idiot to call the referendum, but in calling it he was in fact using his power, given to him by the people to call the referendum

5)We did have a vote on electoral reform. Tbh I personally am reasonably happy with the fptp system... I just feel the boundaries should be more fairly set (and not by an individual party).

The end though, I do agree with. Once we know the position of the government I think it would be fair to spell out what exactly leave would mean and put it to a second vote... although perhaps make that one legally binding. Whether that will happen is another question. May did vote remain though... so... we shall see. (I am praying that mollusc Gove doesn't get in.. if he does then the country has a far bigger issue to contend with than leaving the EU!)

Apparently:

More than a third of voters are not convinced the UK will leave the EU despite last week's referendum result, a poll for BBC Newsnight suggests.

Britain voted by a margin of 52% to 48% to leave the EU after 43 years - and the contenders to replace David Cameron as PM have all vowed make it happen.

But 22% of people polled for Newsnight said they don't know if it will, while 16% believe the UK will stay in the EU.

Ipsos MORI interviewed 1,077 people between Wednesday and Thursday.

The poll also suggests almost half of voters - 48% - agree there should be a general election before Britain begins Brexit negotiations so that people can vote on plans for life outside the EU.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Pestneb

dan-likes-trees · July 1, 2016

Corbyn during the EU referendum? Well, tbh I'm only behind Corbyn because I find him the most relatable face being exposed to me from the world of politics. All these Labour MPs resigning - I think fuck it, let them, maybe we'll get a good shakeup and have some more representative people taken to the forefront. I don't know them, I don't think much of them, but Corbyn - despite the media and others attempts, seems to still be standing. I don't quite understand what he's supposed to have done wrong but when you've got so many people gunning for a man who's resolutely standing by his decisions - well, it just makes me wonder some.

To come back to him during the referendum - what did we want or expect? I was sharing things left right and centre on facebook about it - to be mostly met with either pure agreement from other remainers, or blind resistance from a number of(not all) leavers. I didn't know enough unknowns to see what way they would be swayed - but again as I said, the 'remain' argument wasn't a particularly sexy or controversial one. Remain essentially said to maintain the status quo - and whilst so many are disillusioned with the current politicians and government when their lives are shit, trying to explain why the status quo is good is a very difficult argument to make. I think it was the guy who was on the last leg who said that many people could possibly have voted Leave because their lives feels so shit right now that they honestly didn't understand or believe that they could get any worse. I think Leave won on a large ticket of disillusionment and apathy to the current way of things.

Post-referendum though I'm impressed with Corbyn despite what he's fighting against, especially with his own people. I was glad to see he sacked Hilary Benn, when usually politicians resign, and I'm glad to see he's saying he'll continue to lead the party and stand democratically if there's a leadership contest when he's been pretty much voted in by the public people - the one place they seemed to find they had control or a say in politics. I didn't join to vote for him before, but if a leadership contest comes up again then I'm seriously contemplating it. As I said of all the politicians I get exposed to - he seems to be the one that might actually be able to do or achieve the things I would like, despite basically being attacked from every single angle right now.

Yeah but the people who are engaged or interested in the issue are the ones who would comment - I'd imagine the floating voters and the easily swayed might be less vocal on the topic, but it doesn't mean they're not influenced by what people say. I'm certain that a strong, vocal leader of opposition (and crucially one who is actually interested in staying in) could have made their mark on the outcome, in the same way that Boris and Farage ultimately did.

Completely agree that the outcome was won on anger and dissillusionment, but to my mind that was partly because there was such an absence of a positive case case for the EU by anyone in the run up - which I don't think is impossible to make. Cameron, Osbourne, Corbyn's arguments always seemed to critisise the EU at the same time as promoting it. By the way, whilst the status quo is hard to argue for, it didn't stop the Torys winning last year's election, even despite four years of austerity and the promise of four more (plus Brexit and all that entails).

Also, I feel as though those half baked remain arguements conjured a general sense of apathy around the whole remain campaign. It seemed to lack urgency, and though the turnout was obviously extremely high, you got the sense that every single person who wanted to leave went to vote - not the case with remain. So what did I expect from him? A passionate, positive case for staying in that would've convinced more people to go out and vote, whilst gathering some floating voters. Perhaps actually working with Cameron to really make a point. When a one percent swing would've changed the result, I found it an appalling attitude.

As Blade says, it seems much more likely that he's just generally anti-EU - which personally is enough to lose my vote, even now that the poll's passed.

I think he had to go in favour of Remain for the party, as they are mostly Remainers. He couldn't divide the party like Cameron and Boris did.

Isn't having three quarters of your MPs voting no confidence in the leader dividing the party? 20 cabinet members resigning? The labour party is more of a mess than the Torys right now. I'd have much preferred if he'd been honest about his views on the EU than pretending to support his party, which is overwhelmingly pro-EU.

Kav · July 1, 2016

@dan\-likes\-trees yes the party is divided now, I mentioned that in my post. I was just saying that it was best for the party at the time to unite under one side, remain or leave, especially so because the Tories had split!

dan-likes-trees · July 1, 2016

@dan\-likes\-trees yes the party is divided now, I mentioned that in my post. I was just saying that it was best for the party at the time to unite under one side, remain or leave, especially so because the Tories had split!

Yeah but my point was that he wasn't uniting the party under one side - he was doing the bare minimum expected to support the overwhelming majority view of his party - both MPs and supporters - but putting in so little effort that it ultimately did divide the party after the fact.

And what does best for the party mean anyway? It clearly didn't help in the short of long term..

Choze · July 3, 2016

Yeah but my point was that he wasn't uniting the party under one side - he was doing the bare minimum expected to support the overwhelming majority view of his party - both MPs and supporters - but putting in so little effort that it ultimately did divide the party after the fact.

And what does best for the party mean anyway? It clearly didn't help in the short of long term..

If this is Labour then yes many are saying internal polling revealed they lost support and remain support lessened. Not sure how the party can continue as is. They need a shake up.

Having said the Conservatives did poorly too and damaged the country. Its going to be hard telling people that they will be clearly worse off. No one should forget what has happened.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/01/boris-johnson-and-michael-gove-betrayed-britain-over-brexit?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

He has left us to look on his works and despair. The outlook for the economy is so bleak, the governor of the Bank of England talks of “economic post-traumatic stress disorder.” The Economist Intelligence Unit projects a 6% contraction by 2020, an 8% decline in investment, rising unemployment, falling tax revenues and public debt to reach 100% of our national output. No wonder George Osborne casually announced that the central aim of his fiscal policy since 2010 – eradicating the deficit – has now been indefinitely postponed, thereby breaking what had been the defining commitment of the Tories’ manifesto at the last election, back in the Paleolithic era known as 2015.

Perhaps headlines about Britain losing its AAA credit ratings don’t cut through. Maybe it’s easier to think in terms of the contracts cancelled, the planned investments scrapped, the existing jobs that will be lost and the future jobs that will never happen. Or the British scientific and medical research that relied on EU funding and European cooperation and that will now be set back “decades”, according to those at the sharp end.

And what was it all for?

Edited July 3, 2016 by Choze

Choze · July 3, 2016

Yeah but my point was that he wasn't uniting the party under one side - he was doing the bare minimum expected to support the overwhelming majority view of his party - both MPs and supporters - but putting in so little effort that it ultimately did divide the party after the fact.

And what does best for the party mean anyway? It clearly didn't help in the short of long term..

If this is Labour then yes many are saying internal polling revealed they lost support and remain support lessened. Not sure how the party can continue as is. They need a shake up.

Having said the Conservatives did poorly too and damaged the country. Its going to be hard telling people that they will be clearly worse off. No one should forget what has happened.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/01/boris-johnson-and-michael-gove-betrayed-britain-over-brexit?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

He has left us to look on his works and despair. The outlook for the economy is so bleak, the governor of the Bank of England talks of “economic post-traumatic stress disorder.” The Economist Intelligence Unit projects a 6% contraction by 2020, an 8% decline in investment, rising unemployment, falling tax revenues and public debt to reach 100% of our national output. No wonder George Osborne casually announced that the central aim of his fiscal policy since 2010 – eradicating the deficit – has now been indefinitely postponed, thereby breaking what had been the defining commitment of the Tories’ manifesto at the last election, back in the Paleolithic era known as 2015.

Perhaps headlines about Britain losing its AAA credit ratings don’t cut through. Maybe it’s easier to think in terms of the contracts cancelled, the planned investments scrapped, the existing jobs that will be lost and the future jobs that will never happen. Or the British scientific and medical research that relied on EU funding and European cooperation and that will now be set back “decades”, according to those at the sharp end.

And what was it all for?

Edited July 3, 2016 by Choze

**Rummy** · July 4, 2016

Corbyn has always been anti-EU. He has never believed in it. People say he is principled and I do share that same view. He really should have just come out as a leaver (which he is) rather than fighting an half arsed campaign to remain in the EU.

Post referendum, well he immediately called upon the government to invoke Art 50 even though no-one has a plan.

The leaver which he is? Just like you're a racist if you voted leave, right? :rolleyes:

Yeah but the people who are engaged or interested in the issue are the ones who would comment - I'd imagine the floating voters and the easily swayed might be less vocal on the topic, but it doesn't mean they're not influenced by what people say. I'm certain that a strong, vocal leader of opposition (and crucially one who is actually interested in staying in) could have made their mark on the outcome, in the same way that Boris and Farage ultimately did.

Well yes of course, that's why I was sharing so much. I've drawn comments from many friends about how I was essentially accidentally flooding their facebooks with referendum stuff - yet post-referendum I saw many many many more remainers all bitching and moaning trying to reverse it but then I wondered why they didn't do their work before it instead. Maybe I swayed some unknowns, maybe I didn't - but I explicitly knew what most of my friends were going to be voting based on conversations, likes, etc. I agree the uncertains would be less vocal - but again that's why I was sharing so much.

Completely agree that the outcome was won on anger and dissillusionment, but to my mind that was partly because there was such an absence of a positive case case for the EU by anyone in the run up - which I don't think is impossible to make. Cameron, Osbourne, Corbyn's arguments always seemed to critisise the EU at the same time as promoting it. By the way, whilst the status quo is hard to argue for, it didn't stop the Torys winning last year's election, even despite four years of austerity and the promise of four more (plus Brexit and all that entails).

But wasn't that just, really, the truth? Would you prefer to be lied to, similar to what the Leave campaign is now being held to have done by so many people? The EU's not perfect, but the argument was that we can only change it from within, and also that leaving would be bad for the economy. As I said - the argument for remain wasn't a particularly sexy one to make - how would you have done it, if you were in their shoes?

Re: the Tory win last year - that's not the same. Votes did not count as democratically in that vote/election as they did here, as was well covered at the time.

Also invoke the conspiracy theorist in me - how much media coverage do you believe Corbyn would have gotten, assuming his attempts were greater than we've so far been led to believe? I don't mean to say they were greater or lesser, just that I didn't see much coverage, and that is all I have to go on.

I should add for all this - I'm not Corbyn or Labour mad. I've never felt a particular affiliation to any one party or politician. I like to take them all as they come - but again Corbyn feels like a face in that world that I get to see that represents me better than the rest. There's still gaps.

**Rummy** · July 4, 2016

Corbyn has always been anti-EU. He has never believed in it. People say he is principled and I do share that same view. He really should have just come out as a leaver (which he is) rather than fighting an half arsed campaign to remain in the EU.

Post referendum, well he immediately called upon the government to invoke Art 50 even though no-one has a plan.

The leaver which he is? Just like you're a racist if you voted leave, right? :rolleyes:

Yeah but the people who are engaged or interested in the issue are the ones who would comment - I'd imagine the floating voters and the easily swayed might be less vocal on the topic, but it doesn't mean they're not influenced by what people say. I'm certain that a strong, vocal leader of opposition (and crucially one who is actually interested in staying in) could have made their mark on the outcome, in the same way that Boris and Farage ultimately did.

Well yes of course, that's why I was sharing so much. I've drawn comments from many friends about how I was essentially accidentally flooding their facebooks with referendum stuff - yet post-referendum I saw many many many more remainers all bitching and moaning trying to reverse it but then I wondered why they didn't do their work before it instead. Maybe I swayed some unknowns, maybe I didn't - but I explicitly knew what most of my friends were going to be voting based on conversations, likes, etc. I agree the uncertains would be less vocal - but again that's why I was sharing so much.

Completely agree that the outcome was won on anger and dissillusionment, but to my mind that was partly because there was such an absence of a positive case case for the EU by anyone in the run up - which I don't think is impossible to make. Cameron, Osbourne, Corbyn's arguments always seemed to critisise the EU at the same time as promoting it. By the way, whilst the status quo is hard to argue for, it didn't stop the Torys winning last year's election, even despite four years of austerity and the promise of four more (plus Brexit and all that entails).

But wasn't that just, really, the truth? Would you prefer to be lied to, similar to what the Leave campaign is now being held to have done by so many people? The EU's not perfect, but the argument was that we can only change it from within, and also that leaving would be bad for the economy. As I said - the argument for remain wasn't a particularly sexy one to make - how would you have done it, if you were in their shoes?

Re: the Tory win last year - that's not the same. Votes did not count as democratically in that vote/election as they did here, as was well covered at the time.

Also invoke the conspiracy theorist in me - how much media coverage do you believe Corbyn would have gotten, assuming his attempts were greater than we've so far been led to believe? I don't mean to say they were greater or lesser, just that I didn't see much coverage, and that is all I have to go on.

I should add for all this - I'm not Corbyn or Labour mad. I've never felt a particular affiliation to any one party or politician. I like to take them all as they come - but again Corbyn feels like a face in that world that I get to see that represents me better than the rest. There's still gaps.

Nicktendo · July 4, 2016

The more time passes since this referendum, the more I'm swinging over to leave. I Think with the right government it could still end up being a positive step.

This video is interesting.

Nicktendo · July 4, 2016

The more time passes since this referendum, the more I'm swinging over to leave. I Think with the right government it could still end up being a positive step.

This video is interesting.

Blade · July 5, 2016

@Rummy

Yeah the leaver that he is. He is a proper left wing politician who takes the traditional left wing stance against the EU. He has voted against every EU treaty and prior to taking up the leadership was extremely critical of it. He voted to leave the common market in 1975.

Obviously I have nothing against him for being anti-EU.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Blade

Blade · July 5, 2016

@Rummy

Yeah the leaver that he is. He is a proper left wing politician who takes the traditional left wing stance against the EU. He has voted against every EU treaty and prior to taking up the leadership was extremely critical of it. He voted to leave the common market in 1975.

Obviously I have nothing against him for being anti-EU.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Blade

**Ashley** · July 5, 2016

1)Sure, we can vote to return to the EU at some point in the future.
2)the UKIP got a lot of votes too.. I'm sure they supported the referendum... also, seeing how many people voted leave, it would suggest that the referendum was something that on balance the population wanted.

3)Nor could you have said which Bremain campaign would have won. If you split the leave vote you'd have to split the remain vote too.

4)Well.. point 1 he says that our democracy failed because the elected leader didn't have a mandate. Then this point suggest that the non mandate gave that same man the right to unilaterally go back on his election manifesto and declare we would stay in the EU?

I agree David was an idiot to call the referendum, but in calling it he was in fact using his power, given to him by the people to call the referendum

5)We did have a vote on electoral reform. Tbh I personally am reasonably happy with the fptp system... I just feel the boundaries should be more fairly set (and not by an individual party).

The end though, I do agree with. Once we know the position of the government I think it would be fair to spell out what exactly leave would mean and put it to a second vote... although perhaps make that one legally binding. Whether that will happen is another question. May did vote remain though... so... we shall see. (I am praying that mollusc Gove doesn't get in.. if he does then the country has a far bigger issue to contend with than leaving the EU!)

Apparently:

Sorry, posted that on the train home for the weekend so didn't really have time (or patience I guess) to elaborate.

Obviously there are issues, I just found it an interesting read.

I've been thinking a lot about how the whole thing feels undemocratic. I know it is democratic, but it just feels really shitty that my rights can be voted away by others (as opposed to my rights not being expanded by others, as would have been the case with something like Ireland's marriage equality vote). Feels like the impact is so wide-spread and varied (i.e. different people will be impacted differently) it's too reckless to put it to vote, but oh well. If only it had been a vote asking if the government should continue with their austerity plan!

Been thinking a lot this weekend about how it shows how differently a lot of people see the situation (which is obvious but still worth considering). My family don't get the importance these rights are to me, because they have never considered them rights that would affect their lives.

The German and Italian governments considering offering dual citizenships for British citizens living there is interesting. Hopefully there will be some kind of "if you moved here before x date" set in the future because I would seriously consider doing it. I'd understand if it was just "anyone currently here" though.

Other than that, there's marriage I guess.

**Ashley** · July 5, 2016

1)Sure, we can vote to return to the EU at some point in the future.
2)the UKIP got a lot of votes too.. I'm sure they supported the referendum... also, seeing how many people voted leave, it would suggest that the referendum was something that on balance the population wanted.

3)Nor could you have said which Bremain campaign would have won. If you split the leave vote you'd have to split the remain vote too.

4)Well.. point 1 he says that our democracy failed because the elected leader didn't have a mandate. Then this point suggest that the non mandate gave that same man the right to unilaterally go back on his election manifesto and declare we would stay in the EU?

I agree David was an idiot to call the referendum, but in calling it he was in fact using his power, given to him by the people to call the referendum

5)We did have a vote on electoral reform. Tbh I personally am reasonably happy with the fptp system... I just feel the boundaries should be more fairly set (and not by an individual party).

The end though, I do agree with. Once we know the position of the government I think it would be fair to spell out what exactly leave would mean and put it to a second vote... although perhaps make that one legally binding. Whether that will happen is another question. May did vote remain though... so... we shall see. (I am praying that mollusc Gove doesn't get in.. if he does then the country has a far bigger issue to contend with than leaving the EU!)

Apparently:

Sorry, posted that on the train home for the weekend so didn't really have time (or patience I guess) to elaborate.

Obviously there are issues, I just found it an interesting read.

I've been thinking a lot about how the whole thing feels undemocratic. I know it is democratic, but it just feels really shitty that my rights can be voted away by others (as opposed to my rights not being expanded by others, as would have been the case with something like Ireland's marriage equality vote). Feels like the impact is so wide-spread and varied (i.e. different people will be impacted differently) it's too reckless to put it to vote, but oh well. If only it had been a vote asking if the government should continue with their austerity plan!

Been thinking a lot this weekend about how it shows how differently a lot of people see the situation (which is obvious but still worth considering). My family don't get the importance these rights are to me, because they have never considered them rights that would affect their lives.

The German and Italian governments considering offering dual citizenships for British citizens living there is interesting. Hopefully there will be some kind of "if you moved here before x date" set in the future because I would seriously consider doing it. I'd understand if it was just "anyone currently here" though.

Other than that, there's marriage I guess.

pratty · July 5, 2016

Sorry, posted that on the train home for the weekend so didn't really have time (or patience I guess) to elaborate.

Obviously there are issues, I just found it an interesting read.

I've been thinking a lot about how the whole thing feels undemocratic. I know it is democratic, but it just feels really shitty that my rights can be voted away by others (as opposed to my rights not being expanded by others, as would have been the case with something like Ireland's marriage equality vote). Feels like the impact is so wide-spread and varied (i.e. different people will be impacted differently) it's too reckless to put it to vote, but oh well. If only it had been a vote asking if the government should continue with their austerity plan!

Been thinking a lot this weekend about how it shows how differently a lot of people see the situation (which is obvious but still worth considering). My family don't get the importance these rights are to me, because they have never considered them rights that would affect their lives.

The German and Italian governments considering offering dual citizenships for British citizens living there is interesting. Hopefully there will be some kind of "if you moved here before x date" set in the future because I would seriously consider doing it. I'd understand if it was just "anyone currently here" though.

Other than that, there's marriage I guess.

Not trying to pick a fight, but what rights would you say you have lost?

The subject of rights and the distinction between rights and privileges is tricky. Did you really have the right to travel freely within the EU, or did you have the privilege? Did you have employment rights, or did you have employment privileges? They might feel like rights but if the government grants them and takes them away, are they? If you can change the government you can change the 'rights', not much of a right then was it?

The United States made a distinction with the constitution. The government generally doesn't really grant or deny their rights, or at least it isn't supposed to, they are said to come from god, the first priority of their government is to protect those rights. This is why people can't just vote away other people's right to bear arms.

Claiming certain things as a right is problematic, to insist that another person or institution owes you a service as your right implies they are compelled to provide that service whether they want to or not, this is the problem for example of claiming healthcare should be a general right, what if a doctor doesn't want to treat you? It may be unethical of them if they don't, but is it ethical to force them, what about their free will?

If you say freedom to travel in the EU was a right then that implies that the other countries must let you in whether they want or not. What does this then say about the free will of a nation under the EU?

That you may have lost the freedom to travel within the EU as you please is the problem with the EU, it's a conditional privilege club. Stay and you get the perks, leave and you don't. Seeing as it's so desirable by our respective governemnts and large portions of our citizens you'd think mutual free movement deals could be struck between Britian and probably whichever European neighbour we like. Doing so through the EU however means you can't just set up mutual free movement agreements with the countries you want, you have one with all of them up on the same terms, and you take on all the EU regulations unrelated to immigration. So are the leavers to blame for voting to leave, or is it the EU for placing such conditions on the free movement perks of EU membership that many conclude the perks are not worth the totality of EU membership.

As for employment 'rights', if we choose to there is no reason we can't lobby and vote in a government that will pass the same laws domestically. I don't know why people give the EU so much credit, it's easy for the EU or any government to say "Free goodies for everyone!" when they aren't the one that has to pay the cost of them. It's as though some people think the EU is paying for people's holiday pay etc, no the EU is forcing businesses to regardless of whether they can afford to or not, those that can't will just have to employ fewer people. At least if Britian does it it can create the employment laws that suit Britian and it's culture and economy, not the laws that suit Britain and 27 other countries.

In short, was anything we got the EU and have now lost truly a right?

pratty · July 5, 2016