EU Referendum - In/Out?

**Rummy** · July 4, 2016

Corbyn has always been anti-EU. He has never believed in it. People say he is principled and I do share that same view. He really should have just come out as a leaver (which he is) rather than fighting an half arsed campaign to remain in the EU.

Post referendum, well he immediately called upon the government to invoke Art 50 even though no-one has a plan.

The leaver which he is? Just like you're a racist if you voted leave, right? :rolleyes:

Yeah but the people who are engaged or interested in the issue are the ones who would comment - I'd imagine the floating voters and the easily swayed might be less vocal on the topic, but it doesn't mean they're not influenced by what people say. I'm certain that a strong, vocal leader of opposition (and crucially one who is actually interested in staying in) could have made their mark on the outcome, in the same way that Boris and Farage ultimately did.

Well yes of course, that's why I was sharing so much. I've drawn comments from many friends about how I was essentially accidentally flooding their facebooks with referendum stuff - yet post-referendum I saw many many many more remainers all bitching and moaning trying to reverse it but then I wondered why they didn't do their work before it instead. Maybe I swayed some unknowns, maybe I didn't - but I explicitly knew what most of my friends were going to be voting based on conversations, likes, etc. I agree the uncertains would be less vocal - but again that's why I was sharing so much.

Completely agree that the outcome was won on anger and dissillusionment, but to my mind that was partly because there was such an absence of a positive case case for the EU by anyone in the run up - which I don't think is impossible to make. Cameron, Osbourne, Corbyn's arguments always seemed to critisise the EU at the same time as promoting it. By the way, whilst the status quo is hard to argue for, it didn't stop the Torys winning last year's election, even despite four years of austerity and the promise of four more (plus Brexit and all that entails).

But wasn't that just, really, the truth? Would you prefer to be lied to, similar to what the Leave campaign is now being held to have done by so many people? The EU's not perfect, but the argument was that we can only change it from within, and also that leaving would be bad for the economy. As I said - the argument for remain wasn't a particularly sexy one to make - how would you have done it, if you were in their shoes?

Re: the Tory win last year - that's not the same. Votes did not count as democratically in that vote/election as they did here, as was well covered at the time.

Also invoke the conspiracy theorist in me - how much media coverage do you believe Corbyn would have gotten, assuming his attempts were greater than we've so far been led to believe? I don't mean to say they were greater or lesser, just that I didn't see much coverage, and that is all I have to go on.

I should add for all this - I'm not Corbyn or Labour mad. I've never felt a particular affiliation to any one party or politician. I like to take them all as they come - but again Corbyn feels like a face in that world that I get to see that represents me better than the rest. There's still gaps.

**Rummy** · July 4, 2016

Corbyn has always been anti-EU. He has never believed in it. People say he is principled and I do share that same view. He really should have just come out as a leaver (which he is) rather than fighting an half arsed campaign to remain in the EU.

Post referendum, well he immediately called upon the government to invoke Art 50 even though no-one has a plan.

The leaver which he is? Just like you're a racist if you voted leave, right? :rolleyes:

Yeah but the people who are engaged or interested in the issue are the ones who would comment - I'd imagine the floating voters and the easily swayed might be less vocal on the topic, but it doesn't mean they're not influenced by what people say. I'm certain that a strong, vocal leader of opposition (and crucially one who is actually interested in staying in) could have made their mark on the outcome, in the same way that Boris and Farage ultimately did.

Well yes of course, that's why I was sharing so much. I've drawn comments from many friends about how I was essentially accidentally flooding their facebooks with referendum stuff - yet post-referendum I saw many many many more remainers all bitching and moaning trying to reverse it but then I wondered why they didn't do their work before it instead. Maybe I swayed some unknowns, maybe I didn't - but I explicitly knew what most of my friends were going to be voting based on conversations, likes, etc. I agree the uncertains would be less vocal - but again that's why I was sharing so much.

Completely agree that the outcome was won on anger and dissillusionment, but to my mind that was partly because there was such an absence of a positive case case for the EU by anyone in the run up - which I don't think is impossible to make. Cameron, Osbourne, Corbyn's arguments always seemed to critisise the EU at the same time as promoting it. By the way, whilst the status quo is hard to argue for, it didn't stop the Torys winning last year's election, even despite four years of austerity and the promise of four more (plus Brexit and all that entails).

But wasn't that just, really, the truth? Would you prefer to be lied to, similar to what the Leave campaign is now being held to have done by so many people? The EU's not perfect, but the argument was that we can only change it from within, and also that leaving would be bad for the economy. As I said - the argument for remain wasn't a particularly sexy one to make - how would you have done it, if you were in their shoes?

Re: the Tory win last year - that's not the same. Votes did not count as democratically in that vote/election as they did here, as was well covered at the time.

Also invoke the conspiracy theorist in me - how much media coverage do you believe Corbyn would have gotten, assuming his attempts were greater than we've so far been led to believe? I don't mean to say they were greater or lesser, just that I didn't see much coverage, and that is all I have to go on.

I should add for all this - I'm not Corbyn or Labour mad. I've never felt a particular affiliation to any one party or politician. I like to take them all as they come - but again Corbyn feels like a face in that world that I get to see that represents me better than the rest. There's still gaps.

Nicktendo · July 4, 2016

The more time passes since this referendum, the more I'm swinging over to leave. I Think with the right government it could still end up being a positive step.

This video is interesting.

Nicktendo · July 4, 2016

The more time passes since this referendum, the more I'm swinging over to leave. I Think with the right government it could still end up being a positive step.

This video is interesting.

Blade · July 5, 2016

@Rummy

Yeah the leaver that he is. He is a proper left wing politician who takes the traditional left wing stance against the EU. He has voted against every EU treaty and prior to taking up the leadership was extremely critical of it. He voted to leave the common market in 1975.

Obviously I have nothing against him for being anti-EU.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Blade

Blade · July 5, 2016

@Rummy

Yeah the leaver that he is. He is a proper left wing politician who takes the traditional left wing stance against the EU. He has voted against every EU treaty and prior to taking up the leadership was extremely critical of it. He voted to leave the common market in 1975.

Obviously I have nothing against him for being anti-EU.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Blade

**Ashley** · July 5, 2016

1)Sure, we can vote to return to the EU at some point in the future.
2)the UKIP got a lot of votes too.. I'm sure they supported the referendum... also, seeing how many people voted leave, it would suggest that the referendum was something that on balance the population wanted.

3)Nor could you have said which Bremain campaign would have won. If you split the leave vote you'd have to split the remain vote too.

4)Well.. point 1 he says that our democracy failed because the elected leader didn't have a mandate. Then this point suggest that the non mandate gave that same man the right to unilaterally go back on his election manifesto and declare we would stay in the EU?

I agree David was an idiot to call the referendum, but in calling it he was in fact using his power, given to him by the people to call the referendum

5)We did have a vote on electoral reform. Tbh I personally am reasonably happy with the fptp system... I just feel the boundaries should be more fairly set (and not by an individual party).

The end though, I do agree with. Once we know the position of the government I think it would be fair to spell out what exactly leave would mean and put it to a second vote... although perhaps make that one legally binding. Whether that will happen is another question. May did vote remain though... so... we shall see. (I am praying that mollusc Gove doesn't get in.. if he does then the country has a far bigger issue to contend with than leaving the EU!)

Apparently:

Sorry, posted that on the train home for the weekend so didn't really have time (or patience I guess) to elaborate.

Obviously there are issues, I just found it an interesting read.

I've been thinking a lot about how the whole thing feels undemocratic. I know it is democratic, but it just feels really shitty that my rights can be voted away by others (as opposed to my rights not being expanded by others, as would have been the case with something like Ireland's marriage equality vote). Feels like the impact is so wide-spread and varied (i.e. different people will be impacted differently) it's too reckless to put it to vote, but oh well. If only it had been a vote asking if the government should continue with their austerity plan!

Been thinking a lot this weekend about how it shows how differently a lot of people see the situation (which is obvious but still worth considering). My family don't get the importance these rights are to me, because they have never considered them rights that would affect their lives.

The German and Italian governments considering offering dual citizenships for British citizens living there is interesting. Hopefully there will be some kind of "if you moved here before x date" set in the future because I would seriously consider doing it. I'd understand if it was just "anyone currently here" though.

Other than that, there's marriage I guess.

**Ashley** · July 5, 2016

1)Sure, we can vote to return to the EU at some point in the future.
2)the UKIP got a lot of votes too.. I'm sure they supported the referendum... also, seeing how many people voted leave, it would suggest that the referendum was something that on balance the population wanted.

3)Nor could you have said which Bremain campaign would have won. If you split the leave vote you'd have to split the remain vote too.

4)Well.. point 1 he says that our democracy failed because the elected leader didn't have a mandate. Then this point suggest that the non mandate gave that same man the right to unilaterally go back on his election manifesto and declare we would stay in the EU?

I agree David was an idiot to call the referendum, but in calling it he was in fact using his power, given to him by the people to call the referendum

5)We did have a vote on electoral reform. Tbh I personally am reasonably happy with the fptp system... I just feel the boundaries should be more fairly set (and not by an individual party).

The end though, I do agree with. Once we know the position of the government I think it would be fair to spell out what exactly leave would mean and put it to a second vote... although perhaps make that one legally binding. Whether that will happen is another question. May did vote remain though... so... we shall see. (I am praying that mollusc Gove doesn't get in.. if he does then the country has a far bigger issue to contend with than leaving the EU!)

Apparently:

Sorry, posted that on the train home for the weekend so didn't really have time (or patience I guess) to elaborate.

Obviously there are issues, I just found it an interesting read.

I've been thinking a lot about how the whole thing feels undemocratic. I know it is democratic, but it just feels really shitty that my rights can be voted away by others (as opposed to my rights not being expanded by others, as would have been the case with something like Ireland's marriage equality vote). Feels like the impact is so wide-spread and varied (i.e. different people will be impacted differently) it's too reckless to put it to vote, but oh well. If only it had been a vote asking if the government should continue with their austerity plan!

Been thinking a lot this weekend about how it shows how differently a lot of people see the situation (which is obvious but still worth considering). My family don't get the importance these rights are to me, because they have never considered them rights that would affect their lives.

The German and Italian governments considering offering dual citizenships for British citizens living there is interesting. Hopefully there will be some kind of "if you moved here before x date" set in the future because I would seriously consider doing it. I'd understand if it was just "anyone currently here" though.

Other than that, there's marriage I guess.

pratty · July 5, 2016

Sorry, posted that on the train home for the weekend so didn't really have time (or patience I guess) to elaborate.

Obviously there are issues, I just found it an interesting read.

I've been thinking a lot about how the whole thing feels undemocratic. I know it is democratic, but it just feels really shitty that my rights can be voted away by others (as opposed to my rights not being expanded by others, as would have been the case with something like Ireland's marriage equality vote). Feels like the impact is so wide-spread and varied (i.e. different people will be impacted differently) it's too reckless to put it to vote, but oh well. If only it had been a vote asking if the government should continue with their austerity plan!

Been thinking a lot this weekend about how it shows how differently a lot of people see the situation (which is obvious but still worth considering). My family don't get the importance these rights are to me, because they have never considered them rights that would affect their lives.

The German and Italian governments considering offering dual citizenships for British citizens living there is interesting. Hopefully there will be some kind of "if you moved here before x date" set in the future because I would seriously consider doing it. I'd understand if it was just "anyone currently here" though.

Other than that, there's marriage I guess.

Not trying to pick a fight, but what rights would you say you have lost?

The subject of rights and the distinction between rights and privileges is tricky. Did you really have the right to travel freely within the EU, or did you have the privilege? Did you have employment rights, or did you have employment privileges? They might feel like rights but if the government grants them and takes them away, are they? If you can change the government you can change the 'rights', not much of a right then was it?

The United States made a distinction with the constitution. The government generally doesn't really grant or deny their rights, or at least it isn't supposed to, they are said to come from god, the first priority of their government is to protect those rights. This is why people can't just vote away other people's right to bear arms.

Claiming certain things as a right is problematic, to insist that another person or institution owes you a service as your right implies they are compelled to provide that service whether they want to or not, this is the problem for example of claiming healthcare should be a general right, what if a doctor doesn't want to treat you? It may be unethical of them if they don't, but is it ethical to force them, what about their free will?

If you say freedom to travel in the EU was a right then that implies that the other countries must let you in whether they want or not. What does this then say about the free will of a nation under the EU?

That you may have lost the freedom to travel within the EU as you please is the problem with the EU, it's a conditional privilege club. Stay and you get the perks, leave and you don't. Seeing as it's so desirable by our respective governemnts and large portions of our citizens you'd think mutual free movement deals could be struck between Britian and probably whichever European neighbour we like. Doing so through the EU however means you can't just set up mutual free movement agreements with the countries you want, you have one with all of them up on the same terms, and you take on all the EU regulations unrelated to immigration. So are the leavers to blame for voting to leave, or is it the EU for placing such conditions on the free movement perks of EU membership that many conclude the perks are not worth the totality of EU membership.

As for employment 'rights', if we choose to there is no reason we can't lobby and vote in a government that will pass the same laws domestically. I don't know why people give the EU so much credit, it's easy for the EU or any government to say "Free goodies for everyone!" when they aren't the one that has to pay the cost of them. It's as though some people think the EU is paying for people's holiday pay etc, no the EU is forcing businesses to regardless of whether they can afford to or not, those that can't will just have to employ fewer people. At least if Britian does it it can create the employment laws that suit Britian and it's culture and economy, not the laws that suit Britain and 27 other countries.

In short, was anything we got the EU and have now lost truly a right?

pratty · July 5, 2016