Cyber bullying

[Rummy]

Quite rare that you will be 'bullied' after you leave school though as people tend to grow up and the social hierarchy structure of school life is gone.

 

People trying to beat you up in the real world is a different matter quite different to what we've been discussing above.

 

Also, for the record. I would never attempt to fight anyone unless as a last resort. Getting the hell out of a situation or not putting myself in situations that are more likely to lead to fighting is far preferable. You've no idea if a person willing to assault you has a weapon or friends nearby. I'm guessing if somebody was unhinged enough to start a fight with you, it's good to assume that.

 

That's so naive a statement. You'd be surprised how many young adults, and even grown adults, still experience bullying - it's more subtle but it's still there. Even so, the traits continue to exist and if you didn't learn to deal with it earlier then you'll be similarly susceptible. Do you think some of these cunts suddenly stop being so because the clock ticks over and they turn 18?

 

Don't poke people?

 

If you cave someone's face in and they report you to the police, there is a pretty good chance you will be done for assault. Criminal record, goodbye prospects.

 

Legal definition is that I only need to create apprehension in a subject with physical contact unless I'm mistaken. I poke you with my little finger and you feel apprehensive, I assaulted you.

 

Besides, address my point, when did you ever hear or know of any school age child that got done for assault because of an altercation in school? I'm sure it's happened yes, but it's hardly the norm. On top of which nobody was saying to 'cave someone's face in' - way to argue in the extreme.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Rummy
Automerged Doublepost

[Sheikah]

That's so naive a statement. You'd be surprised how many young adults, and even grown adults, still experience bullying - it's more subtle but it's still there. Even so, the traits continue to exist and if you didn't learn to deal with it earlier then you'll be similarly susceptible. Do you think some of these cunts suddenly stop being so because the clock ticks over and they turn 18?

 

 

 

Legal definition is that I only need to create apprehension in a subject with physical contact unless I'm mistaken. I poke you with my little finger and you feel apprehensive, I assaulted you.

 

Besides, address my point, when did you ever hear or know of any school age child that gone done for assault because of an altercation in school? I'm sure it's happened yes, but it's hardly the norm. On top of which nobody was saying to 'cave someone's face oni' - way to argue in the extreme.

 

It's not naïve - I said it is rare, not that it never happens. And I was saying it was rare in relation to school life, which it is.

 

I know someone was expelled from my school for having a major fight. I never heard what happened after that, but I think that's a good enough reason not to resort to assaulting people.

 

You have to remember, we now live in an age where social media and cameraphone recording is rife. Are you saying that if somebody was attacked at school and this was uploaded online that the school would not respond by expelling the student? They'd pretty much have to with such damning evidence and parent pressure. That alone would be enough to fuck up the expelled guy's prospects. No, it's a really bad idea.

 

Not only that, but look at Kav's story. Being sent for questioning and all the other shit that went down. That sounds horrendous to be honest - surely in most cases you'd first want to attempt every other angle (teacher support first and foremost) in response to bullying before beating them up? OK, sounds like he did with regards to approaching the teacher, but if I was giving advice it would be to approach your teachers first.

[Rummy]

It's not naïve - I said it is rare, not that it never happens. And I was saying it was rare in relation to school life, which it is.

 

I know someone was expelled from my school for having a major fight. I never heard what happened after that, but I think that's a good enough reason not to resort to assaulting people.

 

You have to remember, we now live in an age where social media and cameraphone recording is rife. Are you saying that if somebody was attacked at school and this was uploaded online that the school would not respond by expelling the student? They'd pretty much have to with such damning evidence and parent pressure. That alone would be enough to fuck up the expelled guy's prospects. No, it's a really bad idea.

 

Not only that, but look at Kav's story. Being sent for questioning and all the other shit that went down. That sounds horrendous to be honest - surely in most cases you'd first want to attempt every other angle (teacher support first and foremost) in response to bullying before beating them up? OK, sounds like he did with regards to approaching the teacher, but if I was giving advice it would be to approach your teachers first.

 

Expelled - permanently? What were the circumstances of this 'major' fight? It doesn't sound like it was even a small deal by that word itself. I am entitely saying that yes, someone might be temporarily expelled(suspended) for a fight. I don't think both parties would be likely be expelled permanently, they'd balance punishment in their own interest and actually avoid permanent explusion. Neverminding all of that, You STILL neglect to answer re: assault.

 

 

Yes, I take Kav's story - but the reason I side with it is because if you saw me when I was 11/12, I didn't know how to fight and wouldn't have had either a clue or a thought to. Take me at 15/16 and I'd had a fair share of them - pulled up at least 3-4 times in front of the head of year. You know how many times I got done, or even hinted at, for assault? Zero. Why was I fighting? Because I was fighting back maybe. I'm absolutely with Kav on this, nobody's saying cave somebody's face in(and I'm still lost as to where you got that from) - but he's saying he was taught to just fight back. I wasn't even taught that, I did it off my own back, survive or die, and to this day I can assure you in conjunction with my CRB/DBS that my apparently risked criminal record does not exist.

 

Re: Your argument on cameraphones - my school had CCTV by time I was in Year 9. Admittedly I don't know how functional it was as we were never privy enough to view the accusations made in relation to it - but that's not my problem. Even cameraphone evidence - filmed by who? A truly independant party? I still insist that yes, a school will avoid a permanent expulsion.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Rummy

[Sheikah]

It doesn't matter if they were arrested for assault or not (I don't know the full details) but I know that you can be arrested. Expulsion is still expulsion and could ruin your prospects (yes, he was expelled permanently for beating someone up. Never saw him at school again).

 

I respect that you fought your corner, really. But I don't think 'toughen up' is necessarily the best/first port of call advice to beat bullies.

 

For one, the bullies are often stronger than the person being bullied. That's part of how the person can come to be bullied. Second, with girls this advice isn't so applicable. Third, there may be more than one. There's no guarantee that fighting them would cause them to back off, and people could get hurt. Any good teacher would be a better help to defuse the situation - good threats to pupils from teachers and bringing in their parents would surely be less hazardous, more effective and worth pursuing first.

 

Last, it doesn't really prepare you for life after school because that's when you really do get into 'arrested for assault' territory. Is it worth it? That's what I'd ask myself, in any hostile situation that could be otherwise avoided.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Sheikah

[Blade]

But if its not the case of smacking them back how would you deal with it?

 

Bullying does happen outside of school in the adult world. There are no teachers to go crying to then. What are you going to do if you dont sort the bullies out? Cry on the bad stuff thread?

 

Its not the case of looking for fights its just having the wilingness to stick up for yourself. Nobody else will.

 

Nobody picks on somebody who fights back.

[Sheikah]

Nobody picks on somebody who fights back.

 

He said, right before the fatal knife attack.

 

Seriously, you would stick around and have a fight with someone in public who is demented enough to start a fight with you? Why the heck would you not just run away or find some place crowded/safer?

 

I am slightly fascinated by this. Obviously unavoidable self defence is one thing and you would have no choice. But I have clearly been presenting an alternative situation where not fighting/removing yourself from the hostile situation is an option - yet you guys still propose to engage in fight. Weird. :p

[Rummy]

Why had this gone from school - adult world - random strangers on the street? Few leaps right there imo.

 

What sort of kid is carrying a knife in school? A knife attack most certainly wouldn't go unpunished or unnoticed.

 

Disregarding that, permanent expulsion is rare from my own experience(@Fierce_LiNk as a teacher might know better of the current circumstances), sadly part of the cause is it reflecting badly on the school rather than the issue at hand.

 

As Blade asks - if you don't fight then how do you deal with it? This isn't pre-emptive - this is an emotive situation, placing you in the moment. You either hit or get hit - when you don't fight back you show a weakness that will get capitalised on so hard you'd probably rather take an assault charge! Even though that'd probably never come to fruition anyway. Being arrested =/= being convicted. I think you'll be hard pushed to bring an assault charge for a school altercation in response to bullying due to - 1.) provocation 2.) age of accused and victim 3.) varying conflicting witness statements that most likely exist/get made 4.) system/school and parents trying to avoid it 5.) lack of wish to prosecute by CPS given small chances of success 6.) Probably many more reasons I can't at this very moment think of(I did just have another, but I forgot it)

[Sheikah]

Well I was thinking more 'bullying' cases rather than 1 vs 1 fights. A kid being beaten up by a bully is pretty clear cut assault whichever way you look at it. The way smartphone video recording is so prevalent, it wouldn't at all surprise me if it got recorded and it could lead to a perma expulsion. Beating people up is pretty disgusting and I have no problems believing other schools would expel for it. Our school had a zero tolerance policy. They were made strict about it.

 

Obviously in a case where you haven't got a choice but to defend yourself, you would. But earlier up it was specifically being suggested that a response to bullying (ie. bullying/assault not occurring right this second) was to fight back. If you're aware that the bullying has happened, and probably will again, go tell the teacher. They can employ surprisingly effective tactics to stop it.

 

If my parents found out I did something like that they would go ballistic. I'd certainly never do it again. I'm sure a lot of kids wouldn't either.

 

I don't see this as something 'soft' that doesn't set you up for real life. You're probably not going to get bullied in this way again (at least not in the way that fighting is the answer).

 

Oh regarding the leaping - that was because Blade questioned what you would do after school. And I was presenting a possibility as to why it might not be best to fight back with people that try attack you if you can otherwise avoid it.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Sheikah

[Blade]

@Rummy

 

Probably main reason for the CPS not to prosecute is that its rare to be in the "public interest" to do so. This is often used when the absolute defence of self-defence is not clear cut ie force used in retaliation is arguably not reasonable.

 

I dont think ive come across someone actually being prosecuted for being a victim and just sticking up for himself.

 

Anyway back on topic. I generally try and avoid fights and trouble. So yes I will just try and walk away (note, not run). However there are circumstances whereby walking away is unlikely to diffuse a situation.

 

Another example is if someone comes up to you and demands that you hand over your wallet and phone. Do you:

 

a) hand your stuff over and hope to god the mugger doesnt hurt you anyway

b) try and kick the shit out of the bastard

Edited August 22, 2013 by Blade
Id pick option b. Obviously

[Sheikah]

If the person seemed dangerous/unhinged, I'd absolutely hand it over. Chances are that if they're prepared to risk mugging you that they'd have some means of extracting your cash. I'd then go and cancel my card of course. After all, what's a small amount of money and an insured phone in relation to your life if they draw a knife?

[Blade]

I knew the knife would come out somewhere...

 

The mugger might stab you anyway. What would you do then? You couldnt call 999 as you wouldnt have a phone! Buggered!

[Kav]

From experiences I've had and seen, telling teachers made things worse because the bullies upped their torment outside of school. If you smack them good when they first start bullying you, they'll not do it again.

 

In both schools I went to, fighting was normal. Something that wasn't "tolerated", but kids fight and there was no avoiding it. Especially at Grammar, fights occurred all the time. I dislocated a lads jaw and ruptured his tendons in his mouth in a fight because he was trying to bully me. The poor bastard couldn't talk for ages! My punishment was having to carry gym benches up to the nearby church for the Xmas service. Expulsion was never mentioned then as people confirmed he was trying to bully me and I just stood up for myself and defended myself.

After that, one of his mates and the supposed hardest of our year tells me he's going to kick crap out of me after school. I figured the best course of action was to nip that one in the bud and say to him "why wait until after school to get your arse handed to you. Might as well have me kick shit out of you now so less people see and you aren't as embarrassed." So I kick crap out of him and the nobody tried bullying me after that.

 

I'd even defend others that got bullied, preventing them from being bullied too. No matter how wrong you think it to be, beating up a bully is a sure-fire way to stop bullying.

[Sheikah]

I knew the knife would come out somewhere...

 

The mugger might stab you anyway. What would you do then? You couldnt call 999 as you wouldnt have a phone! Buggered!

 

So if the mugger stabs you anyway, then that renders the choices in your question pointless. If you're stabbed, you're obviously going to lose the lot.

 

If you're really out of escape options then better to give and not aggravate someone who appears dangerous / unhinged and tries to mug you. Chances are if they're mugging you, they have something. Or they're stronger than you. Pretty silly choice of target otherwise.

 

If you thought he might have a knife, which it would make sense to think since you're being mugged, or he's in a gang, and you're alone (probably the 2 most likely situations in which you would ever be mugged), would you try take him/them on? Just curious.

 

From experiences I've had and seen, telling teachers made things worse because the bullies upped their torment outside of school. If you smack them good when they first start bullying you, they'll not do it again.

 

In both schools I went to, fighting was normal. Something that wasn't "tolerated", but kids fight and there was no avoiding it. Especially at Grammar, fights occurred all the time. I dislocated a lads jaw and ruptured his tendons in his mouth in a fight because he was trying to bully me. The poor bastard couldn't talk for ages! My punishment was having to carry gym benches up to the nearby church for the Xmas service. Expulsion was never mentioned then as people confirmed he was trying to bully me and I just stood up for myself and defended myself.

After that, one of his mates and the supposed hardest of our year tells me he's going to kick crap out of me after school. I figured the best course of action was to nip that one in the bud and say to him "why wait until after school to get your arse handed to you. Might as well have me kick shit out of you now so less people see and you aren't as embarrassed." So I kick crap out of him and the nobody tried bullying me after that.

 

I'd even defend others that got bullied, preventing them from being bullied too. No matter how wrong you think it to be, beating up a bully is a sure-fire way to stop bullying.

 

lol I have to say this all sounds pretty horrendous. In that environment you probably were doing the right thing. RAW survival. Most schools I don't think are as violence prone / inactive at dealing with this sort of thing though.

 

I'd also think in a lot of cases, the person being bullied might not be able to put much of a dent into a bully. I'm thinking chess club style kid being bullied here. I don't think being told to toughen up would help our much in that case. =/

Edited August 23, 2013 by Sheikah

[Kav]

If someone pulls a knife on you, don't hand your stuff over, drop it on the floor and let them know, it's theirs if they fancy taking it. Now you've got two choices. Let him take your stuff or take him on if he's stupid enough to go for you stuff without thinking.

 

A lad threatened my brother with a knife whilst he was working (door to door sales at the time) and my brother did this. He dropped his stuff on the floor, he said he could see from the muggers demeanour that this was an empty knife threat and when the mugger went to pick the stuff upy brother beat him senseless. The fucker didn't expect that!

 

If the mugger does look like he'll use the knife happily, let him take your stuff and go. At least you've given yourself an opportunity to perhaps stop yourself from being mugged.

[Sheikah]

@kav82 are you Ross Kemp? :p

[Fierce_LiNk]

Why had this gone from school - adult world - random strangers on the street? Few leaps right there imo.

 

What sort of kid is carrying a knife in school? A knife attack most certainly wouldn't go unpunished or unnoticed.

 

Disregarding that, permanent expulsion is rare from my own experience(@Fierce_LiNk as a teacher might know better of the current circumstances), sadly part of the cause is it reflecting badly on the school rather than the issue at hand.

 

I've got another story on this although I haven't really been reading this through for the last page or so, so it may or may not be relevant. This part should be relevant to your post, though.

 

A friend of mine was the class teacher for a year 5. The group were taking part in some sort of camp-out when a small portion of the group told a nearby teacher that one of the boys had brought in a knife and had "held it up to a girl's throat and threatened to kill her".

 

Whether or not this is true is completely unknown, since the only person who had heard this was the girl who had been threatened. The boy did bring in a knife, some kind of pocket knife as he thought it would be useful for a camp out. He was very quick to admit owning the knife and said that he took it out of the bag to show others.

 

The problem here is that you can't really "blanket" these things and you have to look at each situation and child individually. From what I know of the boy (I taught him at various points in the year, was on good terms with him and understood a lot about his background- quite a difficult upbringing that he had with a lack of a Father-figure), he probably was telling the truth and had only taken out the knife to show others, which...you would kinda expect kids to do, to show off.

 

The second part of this situation is to do with the girl in question, who was quite renowned for telling lies. Now, this puts the school in a situation because you can't really call out somebody as a liar unless there are credible witnesses, which there were none. So, the school took her word for it and the boy was "encouraged" to leave, before he became expelled. In essence, he was kicked out, but to stop him from receiving a black mark against his name and to make it easier to find another school, he was given the option to leave, basically.

 

It's a difficult situation to call, because when you look at the facts at face value, all you see is "boy brings knife to school, threatens others" which doesn't actually tell the whole story. Yes, he was wrong to bring the knife, although he was never at any point told "not to bring one", it wasn't mentioned on some kind of list that knives are prohibited. If he was in the scouts, I'm sure it would have been allowed (maybe, I don't know).

 

In a somewhat ironic way, the girls in that class turned on the girl in question and blamed her for getting the boy expelled. So, if she was telling the truth, then she still came out of it in a bad way.

[Kav]

The funny thing is, I don't look like much at all. I'm not well built, I'm only 5'9 and my whole demeanour is cheery and pleasant. Of my friends I could easily be thought of as the weakest just looking at us, which is why people may have tried to bully me when I was younger or mug me when I've been older.

 

What those people don't know is that I was toughened up and so I can absolutely defend myself. This is why I believe "toughen up" works. Not just saying it, but if the person takes heed of it and actually does toughen up.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Kav

[Rummy]

I don't know how when or why we started to equate responses to bullying situations to responses to daylight/street robbery. A mugger on the street isn't bullying you, he's trying to rob you!! It's nothing to do with the original conversation?

 

As for saying telling the teacher is the best way to deal with things - I'm more with kav on this especially with Fink's stories. I understand the arguments about phones videos evidence etc. but in the absence of such a teacher is left with two different sides of the same story, maybe little evidence(or the word of other kids....which may not be the most accurate/honest) and a tough choice to make. Kids aren't fools, they know quite easily how to continue within and without the school system. SOME teachers are very good and can deal with it well, but at the same time some just aren't.

[nightwolf]

It's not naïve - I said it is rare, not that it never happens. And I was saying it was rare in relation to school life, which it is.

 

I'm not joining in this argument massively, because frankly I get way too angry over it.

 

But after reading this entire thread, this bit stuck out at me. How can you class it as 'rare'?

 

How do you know its rare and not an every day occurrence, do you have facts, figures, anything to support that argument?

 

This very thing could actually be very common, but due to the fact we're in adulthood its very difficult to speak to someone and get around it, perhaps as adults we class it as something else.

[Zechs Merquise]

This argument has become ludicrous.

 

Bullying must clearly have certain defining characteristics;

 

- It must be prolonged. Walking past a random stranger and calling him a tosser isn't bullying, it's just being insulting. Walking past a random stranger and punching him isn't bullying, it's assault.

 

- It must be direct. Calling someone names, hitting them or doing other upsetting things to them. It is not holding an opinion on them or talking about them with other people. If the whole class think one kid stinks and they all discuss his stench, but are polite and friendly with him and no one ever picks on him because of it, he isn't being bullied.

 

When I was at school taking the piss was part of school life. We all used to take the piss out of everyone and anyone and people took it on the chin, it was all part of growing up.

 

Part of the problem now is no one can deal with anything. We have become so soft that anything and everything is a reason for some kind of nervous breakdown. Toughen up is the answer to a lot of these things.

 

I remember being at school one Friday and had a big spot on my nose, one kid shouted out 'I thought Red Nose day was next Friday'. Everyone laughed, I got the piss taken out of me for a day, but it was all part of growing up. It wasn't bullying, it was just what kids do.

 

Of course real bullying should be tackled, but this nonsense that we should included anything and everything in the scope of bullying and totally try to sanitise the school and playground in an effort to wrap kids in cotton wool will do more harm than good in the long.

[Sheikah]

@nightwolf First of all, you just read one part. I said it was rare and elaborated that I meant in relation to school bullying.

 

I don't have any evidence and wouldn't have the first clue how such evidence would come to exist, but I think just generally from life experience we can be pretty confident that it happens a lot more at school. It's just from my perspective, but I certainly never see anyone being bullied or tormented at my workplace, so it's either a lot more subtle or a lot less frequent.

 

Plus at least you can quit your job quite easily if something is really making you really miserable. You're also much less likely to be beaten up, owing to accountability, and people are less childish so aren't as likely to go calling you names. I'm sure bad stuff does happen still, but I'm pretty confident it's more prevalent in schools.

 

Of course, if you had statistics to suggest it was more common / as common in adulthood then I'd be forced to concede, but just generally it seems to be more prevalent in schools (just googling bullying, you will see a wealth of information to help school children).

Edited August 23, 2013 by Sheikah

[Ville]

Yes, it can be more subtle in adult life, but it's still really annoying. And people will do it if you let them. They try to manipulate you, shame you, push you into doing things you don't want to / don't have to, all kinds of crap. That's why a "take no shit" -attitude is a good thing, you cut them right off and they won't even try to mess with you afterwards.

[Sheikah]

Attitude is good, having a fight with a colleague is not. :p

 

But that's also a good point - having the right attitude can be enough to stop that. Some people will walk over others if given the chance at least by standing up to people in the workplace you can try dispel the problem. In school you might get beaten up.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Sheikah

[Rummy]

And where do you learn such things?

[Sheikah]

Obviously by using your fists earlier in school, amirite?

 

Seriously though, choosing to stand up to manipulation in later life requires a completely different method of approach than scrapping in school. That's why learning to fight earlier in life is hardly helpful 'when the teachers aren't there' later on in life like people were mentioning.

 

You're still dealing with the situation of bullying by getting help from a teacher, albeit in a more intelligent way. In fact that sort of way of dealing with the situation is useful to develop for later life. E.g. if you're being discriminated against, you might again use the same approach (seeking support of higher ups).

Edited August 23, 2013 by Sheikah