Goron_3 Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) This came up during a couple of podcasts I listened to over the past month or so. Both 8-4 and NintendoWorldReport have staff members which loved ALBW but some of them hadn't bought Mario and didn't feel any excitement towards it. I've completed the game 100% with my girlfriend but I rarely (if ever) sat down and thought 'this is amazing'. There was little deviation of the main path and if there was it just led to a green star. There was also something hilariously bad about the physics which I noticed if I ever fell off the stage...you don't accelerate as you fall! I know it sounds minor but the jumping mechanic is just so different to Super Mario 64 and SMW; it just felt amateurish. Of course, my girlfriend liked it and she did say at one point that it felt like the game was aimed more at her than me, which sums up my experience with it. I would love this game more had I not played Super Mario 64 before it tbh. That game still excites me and I remember the feeling of exploration I had EVERYTIME I entered a level. The one star that sums that game up is the star at the end of the game in the Rainbow cruise level..it's called 'Somewhere Over The Rainbow' and the first time I played that level I thought to myself that it'd be awesome if they got you to explore the rainbow, which I worked out you could do but you needed to open to canon by speaking to a random bom-omb. It just had that open world feel that few games have had since; you arrived in a level where you could get most stars in any order I would be interested in knowing why @Zell hasn't picked up a Wii U for Mario though...I mean, it's Mario right? And there's also Donkey Kong coming and great sequels like Wii Fit and NSMBU out as well! Edited February 7, 2014 by Goron_3
Sheikah Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 I think from Galaxy onwards 3D Mario levels have become more 'bitesize'; almost Crash Bandicoot in nature. For most levels while you can still move in 3D, platforms are often polarised in one direction (ie. a section of ground that extends far further in length than it does in width). This makes the levels somewhat linear and less free roaming like with most levels in Super Mario 64.
Dcubed Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) I get what @ZeldaWard82 is saying though. This is brand new hardware that is significantly more powerful that the Wii; where are the new games that show off gameplay and worlds that just aren't possible in older hardware? Outside of games that utilise the Wii U's unique functionality (Gamepad/TV 2 screen setup, 3DS connectivity, Miiverse, Spotpass, NFC, Cameras, Gamepad motion controls and touchscreen controls etc), those kinds of hardware-driven gameplay enhancements simply don't exist anymore. More powerful hardware alone is simply not capable of doing anything that can't be done on PS2/GCN calibre hardware on a conceptual level. That's partly why Nintendo moved away from that hardware rat race to begin with. Look at the PS3 and 360 (or even PS4 and Xbone) in comparison to the PS2 and you'll see absolutely nothing gameplay wise that couldn't have been done on previous generation consoles. All they added was shinier and prettier graphics (you also had other things like more convinient online functionality and downloadable content without the need for seperate storage but that has nothing to with the actual gameplay of these games in question). So new forms of gameplay and entertainment have to come via other means. Instead of trying to push for bigger, more detailed and expansive worlds in SM3DW, Nintendo rather choose to focus on other gameplay aspects that offer something different. Whether it be the multiplayer focus, the Gamepad or Miiverse features; coupled with the bevy of new gameplay ideas and features (like the Cat Suit or the Double Cherry), SM3DW offers just as much originality and fantastic gameplay as any other 3D Mario game (if not, moreso!) They're not interested in making another Mario 64 style game because they've already done that twice (thrice if you count SM64DS) and more powerful hardware alone won't provide anything interesting or new. So instead they're more interested in exploring other forms of 3D gameplay. Even Mario Galaxy moved away from that kind of open world 3D gameplay, so it's not a sudden change here... Edited February 7, 2014 by Dcubed
Sheikah Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 New forms of gameplay can still be developed on new consoles, it's just rare that anything with any lasting substance that's new comes about through peripherals like the gamepad. It's mostly innovation in software - gameplay elements not done before. It's not about having a second screen to play on, really.
dazzybee Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) Yeah I don't understand the "could've been done on the wii" argument either... Surely everything could, in theory, be scaled down to work on the wii, or PS2, PS3 or whatever... Just bizarre. What about Knack, Ryse, Kill Zone couldn't have been done on the ps360?! Because the graphics of mario and donkey TF couldn't have been done on the wii so this argument clearly means in gamely terms... New forms of gameplay can still be developed on new consoles, it's just rare that anything with any lasting substance that's new comes about through peripherals like the gamepad. It's mostly innovation in the form of new software - gameplay elements not done before. It's not about having a second screen to play on, really. So "lasting" gameplay innovations don't come from perhirperals? (you do love your caveats with the "lasting".. But funny, I thought the shoulder triggers, analogue sticks did create lasting gaming innovations... And with the rise of interacting with mobiles and such, I think second screen gaming WILL last. Edited February 7, 2014 by dazzybee Automerged Doublepost
Sheikah Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 I said peripherals like the gamepad. Nobody is going to adopt that, and I doubt Nintendo will ever make another console with the gamepad. So no, in terms of innovations the gamepad itself will bring, they will not be lasting. Those other things you listed are also not peripherals.
Goron_3 Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) Yeah I don't understand the "could've been done on the wii" argument either... Surely everything could, in theory, be scaled down to work on the wii, or PS2, PS3 or whatever... Just bizarre. What about Knack, Ryse, Kill Zone couldn't have been done on the ps360?! Because the graphics of mario and donkey TF couldn't have been done on the wii so this argument clearly means in gamely terms... We haven't seen new I.P's from Sony yet (other than DriveClub which is going to be amazing ) but look at Sony's output on PS3; Uncharted, Heavy Rain, LittleBigPlanet to name a few...those are games that justified NEW hardware. A bit unfair to use games like Knack and Killzone; their purpose is to just have something pretty out their at launch, like NSMB was. I have NEVER purchased new hardware if it doesn't bring new experiences and I'm sure most people are the same. Have you ever seen someone purchase a console for a new FIFA or CoD? Nope, although they may treat the console as an investment for future titles, like many of those on this board have done, as they know new, big games are coming. The N64, Gamecube, Wii, GBA, DS, 3DS...I purchased those consoles because I wanted games that were a clear step up from what I played before. Even the 3DS was an 'investment' (launch wasn't great) but it was definitely worth it. I also completely disagree that hardware can't drive innovation. Look at some games from last gen like Bioshock, Batman, The Last of Us, Assassins Creed. Yes, you could scale them down to run on a PS2 but let's face it, they would look terrible and not be immersive at all. Each of those games drove new experiences and created brilliant gaming worlds. Entering Rapture for the first time (Bioshock 1) justified new hardware for me because I couldn't believe how immersed I was...I hadn't felt that way since Ocarina of Time. Edited February 7, 2014 by Goron_3
liger05 Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 That's partly why Nintendo moved away from that hardware rat race to begin with. Look at the PS3 and 360 (or even PS4 and Xbone) in comparison to the PS2 and you'll see absolutely nothing gameplay wise that couldn't have been done on previous generation consoles. All they added was shinier and prettier graphics (you also had other things like more convinient online functionality and downloadable content without the need for seperate storage but that has nothing to with the actual gameplay of these games in question). Really? If you can find any developer which agrees with this and doesnt think more horsepower allows them to do things which were not possible on a PS2 then please do go ahead. Its not simply about shiner graphics.
Dcubed Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) New forms of gameplay can still be developed on new consoles, it's just rare that anything with any lasting substance that's new comes about through peripherals like the gamepad. It's mostly innovation in software - gameplay elements not done before. It's not about having a second screen to play on, really. These innovations will last as long as the enabling hardware exists (and in Nintendo's case, it certainly still does - they're still making games that utilise motion controls, touch controls, two screens, Streetpass etc and will do seemingly for as long as the company continues to make games) Many of these technologies have become standard now (certainly touch controls have been and motion controls in various forms have become standardised). After all, everything is a gimmick (who needs shoulder buttons, or a d-pad? Pfft, one button and a joystick is all we'll see need!) until it gets copied by everyone Really? If you can find any developer which agrees with this and doesnt think more horsepower allows them to do things which were not possible on a PS2 then please do go ahead. Its not simply about shiner graphics. Name me a single (non motion control enabled) game on the PS360 (or even the PS4 and Xbone) that couldn't have been made on the PS2... Edited February 7, 2014 by Dcubed
Sheikah Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) You guys, seriously. Changes to the movement input on the controller/console hardware improvements are not peripherals. If you look back to my post I clearly said 'peripherals like the gamepad'. Are you guys misinterpreting on purpose? The gamepad is an expensive peripheral that has not caught on. Nintendo most likely will not roll with it again. If it was bringing an awesome level of innovation to the scene that people really wanted then it would be copied. Much like the Wii Remote was, although the interest in that has pretty much died down (again, it doesn't last). As for innovation, I'll say it again, but I'd much rather have innovations in gameplay as a result of bright ideas. Like Journey or Dark Souls, which offer a different experience to what has gone before. For me, I much prefer to play new and fresh gameplay than similar gameplay with a new peripheral. Others may disagree on that, but that's my view. Edited February 7, 2014 by Sheikah
Goron_3 Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) These innovations will last as long as the enabling hardware exists (and in Nintendo's case, it certainly still does - they're still making games that utilise motion controls, touch controls, two screens, Streetpass etc and will do seemingly for as long as the company continues to make games) Many of these technologies have become standard now (certainly touch controls have been and motion controls in various forms have become standardised). After all, everything is a gimmick (who needs shoulder buttons, or a d-pad? Pfft, one button and a joystick is all we'll see need!) until it gets copied by everyone Name me a single (non motion control enabled) game on the PS360 (or even the PS4 and Xbone) that couldn't have been made on the PS2... ANY online game for a start wouldn't have been as great. Bioshock wouldn't have been as immersive as the world wouldn't have been as detailed. Same for Arkham Asylum, The Last of Us, etc etc. Also, Journey. That game. Stronger hardware means for bigger, better worlds and doesn't limit developers and their talents. Edited February 7, 2014 by Goron_3
liger05 Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 Name me a single (non motion control enabled) game on the PS360 (or even the PS4 and Xbone) that couldn't have been made on the PS2... I'm not saying a game couldnt be made, I'm saying the experience wouldnt be the same. Of course a game can be scaled down but why would anyone want that when more and more sacrifices have to be made? Surely if hardware allows developers to implement ideas they have with less restrictions then thats a good thing. When I was playing GOW on the 360, I wasnt wishing I could play a worse version on the original Xbox.
Hero-of-Time Posted February 7, 2014 Author Posted February 7, 2014 I've completed the game 100% with my girlfriend but I rarely (if ever) sat down and thought 'this is amazing'. There was little deviation of the main path and if there was it just led to a green star. There was also something hilariously bad about the physics which I noticed if I ever fell off the stage...you don't accelerate as you fall! I know it sounds minor but the jumping mechanic is just so different to Super Mario 64 and SMW; it just felt amateurish. Of course, my girlfriend liked it and she did say at one point that it felt like the game was aimed more at her than me, which sums up my experience with it. I would love this game more had I not played Super Mario 64 before it tbh. That game still excites me and I remember the feeling of exploration I had EVERYTIME I entered a level. The one star that sums that game up is the star at the end of the game in the Rainbow cruise level..it's called 'Somewhere Over The Rainbow' and the first time I played that level I thought to myself that it'd be awesome if they got you to explore the rainbow, which I worked out you could do but you needed to open to canon by speaking to a random bom-omb. It just had that open world feel that few games have had since; you arrived in a level where you could get most stars in any order Yeah, having played Mario 64 not long after SWM3D really showed me how linear and lacking in certain areas SMW3D was. It's still a fantastic game but for me it's simply not as good as Mario 64.
tapedeck Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 I have NEVER purchased new hardware if it doesn't bring new experiences and I'm sure most people are the same. Have you ever seen someone purchase a console for a new FIFA or CoD? Nope, although they may treat the console as an investment for future titles, like many of those on this board have done, as they know new, big games are coming. I am the same. I prefer to buy new hardware only if it brings a new experience. However, I know a ridiculous amount of people who bought/were gifted PS4's and XBone's at Christmas primarily for the new FIFA and COD. Playing FIFA 14 in GAME/at the football on the demo pods was enough for them to update... I've never really understood the 'buying a new console as a future investment' idea. Seems like a great 'trick' to disassociate yourself from cognitive dissonance. Investing insinuates you benefit from your decision. But by buying a system at launch there are hardware flaws you must avoid, fewer games, lack of functionality (such as media playback removal) and a higher price. The only general benefit is social prestige. Consumerism at its finest perhaps.
Serebii Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 It's 2D Mario gameplay in a 3D world, similar to 3D Land on 3DS. You can't even compare it to say Mario 64 or Sunshine, don't even try. COMPLETELY different styles of games. 3D world barely pushes the Wii U other than some pretty graphics at times. It's a very self contained and simple game and it wouldn't surprise me if they could have just made the whole thing on the Wii. I get what @ZeldaWard82 is saying though. This is brand new hardware that is significantly more powerful that the Wii; where are the new games that show off gameplay and worlds that just aren't possible in older hardware? At the moment they have just made sequels and remakes of previous games, which makes it very difficult to justify the hardware as the games could easily have been done on different hardware. It is still a Mario game and it is still a 3D one. If anything, it's closer to a true 3D Mario than Super Mario 64 and Super Mario Sunshine were. It's also not a simple game. Go try Crown-Crown...I dare you. Its gameplay also isn't 2D Mario. Just because you go from A to B and it has a flagpole does not make it so. Mario 64 isn't even that different. You go from A to B to get a star, with the level changing slightly. You can maybe get another star while doing so, but it's still linear, just with the same levels over and over and over again, whereas Super Mario 3D World has variety.
Cube Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 I'm pretty sure there exist a few people who would love to see a game closer to Mario 64, while having absolutely no interest in 3D World. It's a different kind of Mario game, and some people just don't like or want it.
tapedeck Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 SMW3D reminded me of playing Super Mario Word, in 3D. (Funny that!) The tall structures sitting behind platforms, simple 'mini' bosses, varied world (forest levels in particular), enemy design and the bitesize levels. Even the way you fell off ledges was more '2D’. I can almost imagine every level in the game functioning in a 2D Mario game as well. I think that's where it's genius lies. They finally merged 3D Mario with 2D sensibilities. Would love more Mario64-esque platforming but would also rather a game was inclusive rather than excluding of gamers enabling subsequent multiplayer enjoyment out of a title. (Which seems logical in a Mario game).
Clownferret Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 the industry has definitely peaked, which in many ways is a good thing. The leap from generation to generation seems to get smaller every time. You've only got to look at the charts to see that the majority of games on next gen are already available on current gen. This has never happened before. I think the top 40 consists of 3 games that are only available on next gen consoles. There is little room for improvement with graphics and online, motion controls have been ironed out, I can't see where the next big leap will come from.
Goron_3 Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 I am the same. I prefer to buy new hardware only if it brings a new experience. However, I know a ridiculous amount of people who bought/were gifted PS4's and XBone's at Christmas primarily for the new FIFA and COD. Playing FIFA 14 in GAME/at the football on the demo pods was enough for them to update... I've never really understood the 'buying a new console as a future investment' idea. Seems like a great 'trick' to disassociate yourself from cognitive dissonance. Investing insinuates you benefit from your decision. But by buying a system at launch there are hardware flaws you must avoid, fewer games, lack of functionality (such as media playback removal) and a higher price. The only general benefit is social prestige. Consumerism at its finest perhaps. Well I'd like to see a benefit when I pay for a new console, and I'd like to see that benefit be in new games It is still a Mario game and it is still a 3D one. If anything, it's closer to a true 3D Mario than Super Mario 64 and Super Mario Sunshine were. It's also not a simple game. Go try Crown-Crown...I dare you. Its gameplay also isn't 2D Mario. Just because you go from A to B and it has a flagpole does not make it so. Mario 64 isn't even that different. You go from A to B to get a star, with the level changing slightly. You can maybe get another star while doing so, but it's still linear, just with the same levels over and over and over again, whereas Super Mario 3D World has variety. I've completed the game, 100% (including post game), it's not that difficult if you played previous Mario games (especially 3D Land). You say the game has variety but the levels follow an identical theme to older games (snow, water, grass levels'). The level's are also very small in most cases, although they seemed to get a bit harder in the post game. Anyway, this is the wrong thread, so let's not do that here. And Mario 64 is very different; you enter a world and can explore an area that isn't even part of that 'mission' and end up with a completely different star. The ghost level is a great..I don't think I got any of the stars in order there! The Bowser levels are your typical 'point A to point B' though, I'll give you that.
Serebii Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) Well I'd like to see a benefit when I pay for a new console, and I'd like to see that benefit be in new games I've completed the game, 100% (including post game), it's not that difficult if you played previous Mario games (especially 3D Land). You say the game has variety but the levels follow an identical theme to older games (snow, water, grass levels'). The level's are also very small in most cases, although they seemed to get a bit harder in the post game. Anyway, this is the wrong thread, so let's not do that here. And Mario 64 is very different; you enter a world and can explore an area that isn't even part of that 'mission' and end up with a completely different star. The ghost level is a great..I don't think I got any of the stars in order there! The Bowser levels are your typical 'point A to point B' though, I'll give you that. I disagree. You can make it from start to finish on most Super Mario 3D World levels in around the same time as you can levels in Super Mario 64. Also, funnily enough, Mario 64's levels are based on old things. Grass level, castle level, lava level, 2 snow levels, 3 water levels, a desert level, a flying level. All I'm saying is that Super Mario 3D World is not any less or more a 3D Mario game (though I did imply it using your logic, but it isn't the case), or less of a "proper" Mario game, than Super Mario 64. Just because you may not like it does not make it true Edited February 7, 2014 by Serebii
Goron_3 Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) the industry has definitely peaked, which in many ways is a good thing. The leap from generation to generation seems to get smaller every time.You've only got to look at the charts to see that the majority of games on next gen are already available on current gen. This has never happened before. I think the top 40 consists of 3 games that are only available on next gen consoles. There is little room for improvement with graphics and online, motion controls have been ironed out, I can't see where the next big leap will come from. Well you have to remember that new generation franchises are still in development and haven't come out yet. It'll be a different story in 2-3 years time. Old consoles (other than Nintendo consoles as they can't seem to support a console for more than 4-5 years) sell VERY well once new systems are out as they are cheap and have a huge backlog of great games. Of course, it's easier to see cross generation games this time round due to the way technology has moved forward. As for the next leap? Oculus Rift. Sony's VR headset is supposed to be as good as Oculus as well. @Serebii, just seen your reply. Of course the levels in SM64 are going to be short by todays standards, that game came out on a bloody N64! Look at the specs of the damn system. The Wii U is like what, 3 generations of home consoles later? I do love SM3DW, just highlighting why MANY are not excited by it and therefore aren't buying a system for it. It was different for Super Mario 64; people were desperate to play that game as it was such a step up from World. People were itching to play Galaxy too, if I recall correctly. I remember the thread on this board was going crazy just weeks before it launched! Edited February 7, 2014 by Goron_3
tapedeck Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 Replace Mario with the FPS genre... Games arguably need to engage this generation quicker now. More distractions? (Just an opinion of course.)
Serebii Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 @Serebii, just seen your reply. Of course the levels in SM64 are going to be short by todays standards, that game came out on a bloody N64! Look at the specs of the damn system. The Wii U is like what, 3 generations of home consoles later? I do love SM3DW, just highlighting why MANY are not excited by it and therefore aren't buying a system for it. It was different for Super Mario 64; people were desperate to play that game as it was such a step up from World. People were itching to play Galaxy too, if I recall correctly. I remember the thread on this board was going crazy just weeks before it launched! Ah, so I countered your arguments and you're now moving the goalposts. Gotcha.
Daft Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 Replace Mario with the FPS genre... Games arguably need to engage this generation quicker now. More distractions? (Just an opinion of course.) Except if you do something like the left map now in an FPS, which is pretty much what Killzone Shadowfall does, loads of people complain that they don't know where to go and constantly get lost. It's hilarious and sad.
Goron_3 Posted February 7, 2014 Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) Ah, so I countered your arguments and you're now moving the goalposts. Gotcha. I highlighted why I didn't like SM3DW as much as 64. I explained why and @tapedeck has just posted above yours explaining, pretty well, what I was referring to. I explained earlier on that people want to see bigger, better worlds with more powerful hardware and you compared the length of SM64's missions to levels in SM3DW, which makes no sense as like I said a post or two ago, one is on ancient hardware where the worlds were HUGE for their time. I also don't understand why you are arguing as we have both agreed that it's a very different game to a game like Mario 64. You're doing it again. You are ignoring everyone's opinion that is different to yours. Why should I, or anyone else for that matter, post on this board when you're not even going to contribute and just go off on one? Funnily enough, they had this exact discussion on a Nintendo World Report podcast a week or two before the game came out. It's probably the best Nintendo podcast you could ever listen to (I believe @Rummy listened to it on my recommendation and liked it) and the fact that they seemed a bit down from what they had played (they are Nintendo enthusiasts, through and through) sums it up. Edit. Okay, I shouldn't have tried to have a conversation on this board, even though it's a Wii U thread, because I should've known that this would happen. Ironically, this all started because I replied to a guy who was a NEW member, and it still gets derailed like this? No wonder we aren't getting loads of new members on here. Edited February 7, 2014 by Goron_3
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