Machete attack in London

[Ville]

A bit unfair. Religion also gives people hope and gives them a belief that they will go to a better place when they die. Let's not turn this into a "religion is shit" thread.

 

True, and that is also the reason why religions have such a strong pull even today. I'm just not sure if it's enough to counter the inevitable extremism and brainwashing of people that always comes along with every ideology and religion...

 

Also, what about Anders Breivik? Killing 77 and injuring 151 as he felt that Norway's Christian values were being undermimed. This was only two years ago.

But that's still only a single case. With Islamist extremists it seems to happening all the time. I mean even the Westboro Baptists only resort to flapping their gums.

 

Not sure if serious.

Do you not have Muslim/Islam education in your country? It is taught in schools, along with the other "main" religions of the world (Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Sikhism) Islam, by definition, is meant to be a peaceful religion. Being brought up as a Muslim by my family has taught me that you should respect your elders, you shouldn't look to start arguments, fights or confrontations and that you life should be led in a peaceful way. The majority of Muslims you will ever meet will say the same thing. The principals of the religion are about charity, caring for others and taking care of your family.

Yes, we do have multireligious education, but just like with the other religions, how many people even remember what they were taught? And even if they do, what does it matter when the news are telling you something totally different? Also, the school education is just theory, so it's not going to get the children into a real touch with any of the other religions. Thus why I think segregating the classes into different religions is a stupid idea, because it helps build more walls between people. Even with the Christians, as I remember one Orthodox boy saying how he thought all the Lutherans were just stupid. Age: 7; mental walls: already built.

 

Unfortunately, there are people out there who commit atrocities and who kill others in the name of Islam. They are NOT Muslims because you are not taught to do this. You are taught to do the opposite. People like those attacks from yesterday are not committing these crimes for the good of Islam, they are doing it for their own benefit and to cause further disruption between groups of people.

Yes, of course. But still there is some connection to Islam, why else would they be claiming it? I mean you have a million different forms of Christianity, and they all claim to be right. Yet who is to say which is the correct version? Isn't this kind of the same thing? Edited May 23, 2013 by Ville

[The fish]

Finally, the term "Allah hu Akbar" (or other spelling variations) is used during prayer and at times to praise God. It should NOT be used in conjunction with any act of violence. Doing so is wrong.

 

This.

 

I lived in Turkey for a while, you hear it 5 times a day from loud speakers. And, frankly, people say it in a similar way to how people say "oh my god" here, albeit a little less readily.

[Shorty]

A bit unfair. Religion also gives people hope and gives them a belief that they will go to a better place when they die. Let's not turn this into a "religion is shit" thread.

Funny that you see that as a good thing. In all honesty, I wish I could believe in God, wish I could flip a switch that made me believe in life after death. How good would that feel? So much less fear of your mortality throughout your life.

 

However I actually think this is one of the most dangerous things about religion. It can lead to lowering the value of human life.

 

The attackers in this incident believed they were going to be rewarded in heaven, that's why they thought it was ok to kill, that's why they thought it was ok to die...

[Murr]

Not quite as in depth as the conversation has been the past few pages, but to some it up rather easily...

 

 

Extremists Muslims are to Islam what the KKK are to Christianity.... an embarrassment to their respected religion.

[Debug Mode]

The one thing that completely boggles my mind even further is the reaction that followed. Because it was a solider, people seem to have easily bit on the fucking bait set by the stupid cunts over at the EDL. And of course, the night that followed, absolutely sickening. Any body who went should be utterly ashamed of themselves, way to feed the media hype machine.

[Rummy]

You can't really compare. Nobody was hurt in the drawing of a cartoon.

 

True, I should have said simulated/mocked up or something, for the equivalence. It'd still be pretty disgusting to see.

 

Yes it might be a cultural difference, but in my opinion getting so riled up about a picture on paper (or a film like here) is just ridiculous. Even if something is offensive to you, people have no right to start manhandling others for that. The Western countries have freedom of speech for a reason, and it includes the freedom to criticise and make fun of. Turning to violence is just a sign of immaturity and living in a fantasy world filled with egoistical pride, where all criticism must be stiffled with extreme force.

 

For the record, when I said 'we' I meant the greater general public and included myself. As for the above; in your opinion is the cultural difference. That video isn't one sided either, one or two men stood up for the film to be turned off and it wasn't being(again let's pretend it's faked child porn or something), THEN RATHER QUICKLY the place is stormed with police. That is an immediate inflammation of the situation; trying to do the right thing in what you believe and being immediately suppressed by authority. Mob psychology combined.

 

 

Many of your other points are quite fair, though, I can't find myself disagreeing with them. As said, I might be more aware of more religions and cultures both for being from a different ethnic background, and being in a very diverse area. I'm actually sure that, without realising, being friends with a muslim guy definitely topped up the basic knowledge they taught me in school. I should add he's one of the safest guys I know too.

[Happenstance]

Actually, a lot of South Koreans have been hurt in the drawing of cartoons...but that's a different issue.

 

Finger cramp doesnt count

[The fish]

Shit the bed, this is a video from the Mirror of the moment the police arrived (not for the faint hearted, I warn you).

[Shorty]

They didn't die, and the video isn't great, can't see how that would upset too many people.

[MoogleViper]

They didn't die, and the video isn't great,

 

Yeah, fish, show us more people dying, that would be a great video.

[The fish]

They didn't die, and the video isn't great, can't see how that would upset too many people.

 

No, but hey, it's still not exactly U-rated...

 

I didn't realise from the earlier reports quite how close he got to the police car.

[Rummy]

Especially from seeing that, I'm still convinced they must have had some drugs in their system. Either that or seriously conditioned themselves.

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

To me this appears to be a more complex issue than simply blaming Islam or not. There are different levels to it, and we need to look at them separately.

 

First of all, we can't simply blame all the things that have been linked to mentally disturbed murderers - we as gamers should know that more than anyone. Countless Muslims live perfectly good, moral lives, and tarnishing them with the brush of psychopaths has no place anywhere.

 

On the other hand we can't ignore that, overall, Islam produces a higher level of religiously fuelled violence than any other religion today. It may have tenets of peace, but like with any other religion there are countless interpretations of often self-contradictory scriptures, and, compared to other religions today, a disproportionately high number of those are violent, aggressive and downright ruthless. Nobody would fear for his life for drawing a caricature of Jesus, Thor or Apollo.

 

Still, that's on a completely different level than regular, everyday Muslims who go about their lives without ever as much as wanting to hurt anyone. We need to separate the debate between objective criticism of the organised religion of Islam and hateful prejudice of Muslims.

[Pancake]

Why is everyone even focusing on the religion angle? The killer clearly said, on camera, that what they did was a protest/threat/blackmail over this government's foreign policy. And specifically their occupation of countries like Afghanistan. The fact that people end up getting murdered over there, and no one here gives a shit.

 

Not that that excuses what those sick fucks did. But needless killing (or even deliberate) gets done abroad too, and it’s barely acknowledged here. How about we all stop acting like freaks and killing eachother, regardless of where it happens?? Just an idea.

 

The “crazy religious extremists”* angle seems like an easy way out of having a difficult discussion about foreign policy, which is what seems to be fueling all this to begin with (as far back as 9/11, when Bin Laden stated that the killing of muslims as a result of Western foreign policy was the motive for the attack).

 

* Not that they’re *not* batshit crazy, they clearly are.

 

Cameron’s speech was lame too. Full of sentimental avoidance of the actual issue bullshit. Nothing’s ever going to change if we carry on like this.

[Rummy]

Why is everyone even focusing on the religion angle? The killer clearly said, on camera, that what they did was a protest/threat/blackmail over this government's foreign policy. And specifically their occupation of countries like Afghanistan. The fact that people end up getting murdered over there, and no one here gives a shit.

 

Not that that excuses what those sick fucks did. But needless killing (or even deliberate) gets done abroad too, and it’s barely acknowledged here. How about we all stop acting like freaks and killing eachother, regardless of where it happens?? Just an idea.

 

The “crazy religious extremists”* angle seems like an easy way out of having a difficult discussion about foreign policy, which is what seems to be fueling all this to begin with (as far back as 9/11, when Bin Laden stated that the killing of muslims as a result of Western foreign policy was the motive for the attack).

 

* Not that they’re *not* batshit crazy, they clearly are.

 

Cameron’s speech was lame too. Full of sentimental avoidance of the actual issue bullshit. Nothing’s ever going to change if we carry on like this.

 

Because he mentioned islam, and I believe specifically the killing of muslims abroad. It's all the rage to rage against islamic terrorists don't you know! I think I did read Cameron somewhere saying that this attack was nothing to do with islam, and people shouldn't attribute it to that, which is nice, but in the same breath he was also saying it's nothing to do with foreign policy - which from the perpetrators statements is moreso is. For some reason I feel like they both have to go together in this, though. Generally though, I rather share the same opinions as yourself - but I don't want this to move on to foreign policy and the killing of people abroad. I don't condone what they did at all, but the point IS somewhat true...western military kill people abroad every day.

[Pancake]

Because he mentioned islam, and I believe specifically the killing of muslims abroad. It's all the rage to rage against islamic terrorists don't you know! I think I did read Cameron somewhere saying that this attack was nothing to do with islam, and people shouldn't attribute it to that, which is nice, but in the same breath he was also saying it's nothing to do with foreign policy - which from the perpetrators statements is moreso is. For some reason I feel like they both have to go together in this, though. Generally though, I rather share the same opinions as yourself - but I don't want this to move on to foreign policy and the killing of people abroad. I don't condone what they did at all, but the point IS somewhat true...western military kill people abroad every day.

 

Yeah but on the most basic level it’s a protest by a group of people, over the mistreatment over another group of people that they feel an affinity for (in this case, because they share religious beliefs). Killing should be wrong in any case, but here, they’re concerned about their fellow muslims. That’s what they’re saying.

 

But I still think the religious aspect of this is just a side issue. They’re protesting (in a batshit crazy, not acceptable way) over people getting killed abroad. Which is happening, and which is causing these terrorist attacks, which will keep happening, cos nothing will change policy-wise. There’s not even been a suggestion of discussing policy change. It's just not even considered a related issue, cos the West has this arrogant “we’ve done nothing wrong, poor us” victim mentality.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Pancake

[Rummy]

If only people were a little more like you Pancake, I don't think I'd be quite so bothered by it all.

 

If you've got your facebooks, I quite liked this when I saw it;

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151596685813984