Machete attack in London

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

This may sound silly - but when does such an act become terrorism? Is it always terrorism? Is it because of the religious associations, or the extremity of the act? Is it because of the victim? Is this just a horrendous act, or is it terrorism?

 

I was thinking the same thing.

[Ashley]

It does seem to be a bit of a muddled definition. If it is religion-based, then the attacks on Essex mosques last night were terrorism, as was this attack on a 75 year old Pakistani man in Birmingham. Yet, we don't hear them being called that.

 

And let's face it, everything EDL does is terrorism.

[Fierce_LiNk]

I have had a very bizarre day at work. I had a free period and visited one of the learning support assistants in his room, just as he was about to start a lesson with a Year 9 lad. The kid had no idea what had gone on yesterday, so the assistant and I were basically informing him. He has a Father in the armed forces who once told him that "reading is for fags"...

 

After about half an hour of explaining to him why this sort of violence is wrong and why we shouldn't blame a whole race of people based on the acts of a few, another kid entered the room and after being filled in on our conversation merely said: "We should just burn all of the Mosques."

 

Amazing.

 

The first kid didn't have any idea what to say to that. He looked to us as if to say that what the other kid said was wrong, but he was saying those same things an hour ago.

 

A few quotes:

 

"You're Muslim? But, you don't look brown enough..."

"Do you speak Muslim?"

"Why don't we just bomb all of them in their country?"

"Maybe we should just send them all back home?"

 

Aaaaand, as I was walking in the car park at the end of the day, a kid who is by himself on the front lawn decides to run the whole length of the field, trying to catch me before I left. Genuine conversation.

 

"Hey, did you hear about yesterday?"

"Yeah, it's really awful..."

"My Dad is on high alert in London (in the army), he's worried."

"I hope he'll be ok."

"Do you know what's going to happen next?"

"Hmm...well...I imagine things will be tense for a few days, some people have apparently started attacking Mosques..."

"No, I mean...do YOU know what's going to happen next?"

"Me?"

"Yeah...because you're Muslim..."

"I don't know any of these people..."

"Ok, if you hear anything will you let me know because my Dad asked me to find out."

...

 

What the fuck did I just witness?

[The fish]

This may sound silly - but when does such an act become terrorism? Is it always terrorism? Is it because of the religious associations, or the extremity of the act? Is it because of the victim? Is this just a horrendous act, or is it terrorism?

 

As it stands, I'd say it's just a horrendous murder with a quasi-religious motive. Yes, the victim was a solider (and likely targeted as such), but I'm not sure it qualifies as terrorism.

 

Half my degree is in international relations, and the term "terrorism" is generally used to mean systematic indiscriminate attacks on non-combatants, generally with a short term goal of causing fear and division in order to achieve a long term goal. That happened in Woolwich seems to not quite match that.

[MoogleViper]

I do wonder why more of the muslim community don't speak out against this. I'm not saying that they support it, far from it, the vast vast majority condemn the extremists. But imagine if they were more vocal. Imagine if there was as much of a fuss about extremists as there was about the Danish cartoons. I'd say that extremists are the biggest threat to Islam. A huge public outcry from the muslim community would surely ostracise the extremists, and help to curtail the amount of muslims from being radicalised. It would also improve relations between muslims and non-muslims.

 

Thoughts?

[Rummy]

I have had a very bizarre day at work. I had a free period and visited one of the learning support assistants in his room, just as he was about to start a lesson with a Year 9 lad. The kid had no idea what had gone on yesterday, so the assistant and I were basically informing him. He has a Father in the armed forces who once told him that "reading is for fags"...

 

After about half an hour of explaining to him why this sort of violence is wrong and why we shouldn't blame a whole race of people based on the acts of a few, another kid entered the room and after being filled in on our conversation merely said: "We should just burn all of the Mosques."

 

Amazing.

 

The first kid didn't have any idea what to say to that. He looked to us as if to say that what the other kid said was wrong, but he was saying those same things an hour ago.

 

A few quotes:

 

"You're Muslim? But, you don't look brown enough..."

"Do you speak Muslim?"

"Why don't we just bomb all of them in their country?"

"Maybe we should just send them all back home?"

 

Aaaaand, as I was walking in the car park at the end of the day, a kid who is by himself on the front lawn decides to run the whole length of the field, trying to catch me before I left. Genuine conversation.

 

"Hey, did you hear about yesterday?"

"Yeah, it's really awful..."

"My Dad is on high alert in London (in the army), he's worried."

"I hope he'll be ok."

"Do you know what's going to happen next?"

"Hmm...well...I imagine things will be tense for a few days, some people have apparently started attacking Mosques..."

"No, I mean...do YOU know what's going to happen next?"

"Me?"

"Yeah...because you're Muslim..."

"I don't know any of these people..."

"Ok, if you hear anything will you let me know because my Dad asked me to find out."

...

 

What the fuck did I just witness?

 

Wow. Young ignorance. Bit amazing from secondary school kids though, surely? Or is that what the current generation are? 9/11 happened when I was in year 10; I never thought 'the muslims' knew what was going on - I should think nobody I knew then did! Of course, I'm not only brown but it's fairly diverse here(even more so now than then).

 

As it stands, I'd say it's just a horrendous murder with a quasi-religious motive. Yes, the victim was a solider (and likely targeted as such), but I'm not sure it qualifies as terrorism.

 

Half my degree is in international relations, and the term "terrorism" is generally used to mean systematic indiscriminate attacks on non-combatants, generally with a short term goal of causing fear and division in order to achieve a long term goal. That happened in Woolwich seems to not quite match that.

 

Yeah, I don't think this 'qualifies' as terrorism really. Still waiting to hear more about the victims so I can have a facebook status along the lines of 'fucking black british university students need to fuck off home!' - it's good that it isn't the 'current' terrorist stereotype and I'm hoping that might confuse some/get them to question themselves.

[Jonnas]

I thought terrorism referred to any sort of public attack designed to cause fear in the general populace. This attack fits the description.

 

@Fierce_LiNk: Wow, that's just... Damn.

[Fierce_LiNk]

Wow. Young ignorance. Bit amazing from secondary school kids though, surely? Or is that what the current generation are? 9/11 happened when I was in year 10; I never thought 'the muslims' knew what was going on - I should think nobody I knew then did! Of course, I'm not only brown but it's fairly diverse here(even more so now than then).

 

It's scary as hell. These kids are army kids and they are living in a part of the world where they don't have a great deal of exposure to people of different races, nationalities and religious beliefs. Plus, some of the parents don't help as they come from a generation that disliked people who were different in any way to them. I can understand why people are like this and hold these views, because a lot of them simply don't know any better.

 

But yes, awkward as fuuuuck. Basically stood in the car park reassuring kids that Muslims don't just go to Mosques to plan terror attacks.

[Rummy]

I do wonder why more of the muslim community don't speak out against this. I'm not saying that they support it, far from it, the vast vast majority condemn the extremists. But imagine if they were more vocal. Imagine if there was as much of a fuss about extremists as there was about the Danish cartoons. I'd say that extremists are the biggest threat to Islam. A huge public outcry from the muslim community would surely ostracise the extremists, and help to curtail the amount of muslims from being radicalised. It would also improve relations between muslims and non-muslims.

 

Thoughts?

 

I do agree. In part. What are they to speak out against, though? This was a horrible crime perpetrated by someone who identified himself as muslim and justified it, sort of, as such - but was it presented in the name of islam? Why should muslim communities speak out yet, when some aspects of media aren't accurately reporting the islamic related aspects of this attack?

 

It's almost a guilty conscience just coming forward to denounce this so quickly, imo; I don't think it'll be entirely as well perceived as hoped. Really, what SHOULD be being done; is the media should be seeking representatives of the islamic communities to pass comment on this, rather then them having to come forward and speak out.

 

An not entirely comparable contrast as they haven't killed anyone, but when last did the pope or great christian community speak out against the westboro baptist church? They do disgusting things in the apparent name of christianity, so why don't the wider christian community speak out against it?

[Fierce_LiNk]

I do wonder why more of the muslim community don't speak out against this. I'm not saying that they support it, far from it, the vast vast majority condemn the extremists. But imagine if they were more vocal. Imagine if there was as much of a fuss about extremists as there was about the Danish cartoons. I'd say that extremists are the biggest threat to Islam. A huge public outcry from the muslim community would surely ostracise the extremists, and help to curtail the amount of muslims from being radicalised. It would also improve relations between muslims and non-muslims.

 

Thoughts?

 

As far as I'm aware, there have already been an outcry about this from Muslims. I'd personally rather see more action than words. Muslim leaders haven't done enough to change or influence the attitudes of youngsters and encourage them not to do this sort of thing. Too many heads are buried in the sand. From both sides.

[Jimbob]

People have a one track mind, not all muslims are terroists. Flinky what i read above seems to fit into a one track mind, people blame all muslims for the attacks. That is not the case, most muslims (minus the ones who are terroists) are fine. And they feel the same as us about attacks like this, disgusted and upset.

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

I do wonder why more of the muslim community don't speak out against this. I'm not saying that they support it, far from it, the vast vast majority condemn the extremists. But imagine if they were more vocal. Imagine if there was as much of a fuss about extremists as there was about the Danish cartoons. I'd say that extremists are the biggest threat to Islam. A huge public outcry from the muslim community would surely ostracise the extremists, and help to curtail the amount of muslims from being radicalised. It would also improve relations between muslims and non-muslims.

 

Thoughts?

 

I'm not entirely sure I agree. Are we really at the point where people need to come out and say they don't condone psychopathic murders? I do understand what you're saying, though, and it might improve relations. I just can't help but think we're moving into absurd territory when people need to actively distance themselves from such horrors.

[Rummy]

Thought I just posted, dammit.

 

Anyhow, Danny's essentially managed to say it better than I could. The muslim community shouldn't have to come out and speak against it. The larger world should hopefully realise that this is not representative of islam as a whole - but people see it skewed the other way with all the recent terror threats.

 

As far as I'm aware, there have already been an outcry about this from Muslims. I'd personally rather see more action than words. Muslim leaders haven't done enough to change or influence the attitudes of youngsters and encourage them not to do this sort of thing. Too many heads are buried in the sand. From both sides.

 

I don't doubt there has, but where's their representation? The media fails for not putting that across. It's a huge media issue, imo.

[MoogleViper]

An not entirely comparable contrast as they haven't killed anyone, but when last did the pope or great christian community speak out against the westboro baptist church? They do disgusting things in the apparent name of christianity, so why don't the wider christian community speak out against it?

 

Too many heads are buried in the sand. From both sides.

 

Welcome to religion.

 

Are we really at the point where people need to come out and say they don't condone psychopathic murders?

 

I was thinking more about denouncing them from the religion, than simply condoning them. These people think that they're sacrificing themselves for the greater good of Islam. If the Immams (what's above an Immam? Sheikh?) denounced these extremists as non-mulsims, surely that would deter people from being radicalised in the name of the faith?

[Ashley]

Well they did issue a statement yesterday denouncing them and they were not behaving in an Islamic manner.

[Rummy]

But...where's the decent, solid, islamic religion based link so far? It's not universally reported, I think it should be an action to be taken when there's a much more official story/line out on this incident. (this was to moogle's post)

 

Well they did issue a statement yesterday denouncing them and they were not behaving in an Islamic manner.

 

Who's the they and is there any sort of link? I'm interested in how things are being phrased and what not.

[Ashley]

Sheesh Rummy, I've got things to do

 

Mentioned in part here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/23/woolwich-attack-backlash-british-muslims was also mentioned in other articles in the Guardian yesterday (within articles about it, rather than a "Muslim society responds" article itself).

[Ville]

Well it's a religion, and as we all know religions can lead to incredibly stupid things. Thus I don't get why everyone is so eager to give Islam a free pass when Christianity is almost systematically torn to shreds everywhere. Yes, it might be a minority religion here, but that shouldn't make it immune to criticism. I mean at least the Christian extremists don't bomb the shit out of people or hack their heads off. Plus women can do whatever they want here.

 

Anyway, the burden of proof is definitely on the Muslim communities. The public face of Islam is that of extremity, i.e. "bomb, rape and kill" in the news. What can you expect of people to think of that? It's stories like this and this that make you think that something is awfully wrong with the religion. If they want to change that impression, they need to a) explain why Islam is so prone to producing such life-shattering extremism and b) provide more information about what the religion even is. Europe's majority religion is Christianity, so most people don't have a clue about what Islam really is, especially when it's taught and practised privately. The only things people see and hear are atrocities like this. Constant and majorly bad press, which is not a good thing for any minority in any country.

[Rummy]

I dunno, I was taught about Islam in school - nobody told me then it was some sort of terrorist religion or any different to the others; why is it suddenly so now? Why do they need to prove or admit or denounce something because some mental people do terrible things and identify it? Shouldn't we know better?

 

Public face of islam is 'bomb rape kill in the news' - ok. I won't deny that's quite probably accurate. How do the non-raping non-bombing non-killing muslims get themselves in the news then? They don't control it. Extreme acts and things against the norm get reported in the news; what news channel is going to carry a big story on 'Normal muslim man goes to mosque, lives life just like average white man!' - none. Maybe even lives life BETTER than average white man. (that's morally, of course, I'm sure plenty are already claiming that headline on a material front )

 

Consider this contentious point - There was no muslim terrorism in the UK until Iraq

 

As for the phrase Allahu Akbar - it means as far as I'm aware that 'god is greatest'. The phrase in itself I'm sure evokes negative, terrorist connotations in many a folks mind - but it can equally be uttered as a prayer or declaration against perceived horrors, to purify oneself by praising god in the face of this adversity. I mainly mention this as it's subtitled and mentioned frequently in @Ville's video. Now, the page says all are aware and affiliated etc; but it seems...peculiar you'd have so much attendance(including people with children) and police to hand already - I will take it with a pinch of salt. The video also to us, may not be that offensive, but if your religion and culture says that such things are so sacred they shouldn't be depicted let alone desecrated - it's not unreasonable for them to be highly offended by such. It's difficult to make a christian equivalent, but maybe someone squeezing out a turd on a picture of jesus's face - would that equally offend? They chant muhammad, it looks militant - but what if it's to speak of someone so great to them that it overcomes such offensive and disgusting behaviour? To remember his teachings and take them forward in the face of perceived injustice? Not retaliation, but a rallying around a cause and focus to move forward.

 

 

EDIT: let me sum this way - it will sound extreme but let me just put it like this. You get told you're going to see a film, it's highly graphic and highly offensive. You will most likely be offended. You still attend to watch - within seconds it's child porn. Would you ever have expected it? Maybe it's beyond the limits of offensiveness you'd never even consider it, it's something so unbelievable and offensive you wouldn't even have considered it a possibility. What if, for muslims, this is that for them? We don't think it, it's not our culture, but you could understand such a response if I frame it in such a context of child pornography. I'm not saying it's equivalent, but the culture is different - it may be just as extreme for them as child porn is for us. What would you do with that, @Ville?

You protest such a display, and you're suppressed by the authorities for such an action - how do you feel NOW? Take in addition, you're in a crowd - a large crowd. That's mob mentality on a very strongly held issue.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Rummy

[MoogleViper]

But...where's the decent, solid, islamic religion based link so far? It's not universally reported, I think it should be an action to be taken when there's a much more official story/line out on this incident.

 

I thought it had been confirmed? Was it not confirmed that he was chanting Allahu Akbar?

 

If not, then I agree.

[Rummy]

I thought it had been confirmed? Was it not confirmed that he was chanting Allahu Akbar?

 

If not, then I agree.

 

It is, and it isn't. I've seen various media reporting various things - but as said; they previously described him as 'muslim looking' they reported it as a 'terrorist attack', they've implied it was an 'immigrant'. I won't take confirmed until I can see some decent, official, sources. Apparently there's a video where he's saying islamic things - but then again is that a decent and solid link to islam? Can islam be blamed for it? Or is a perpetrator justifying his actions with his perceived views of his religion? Just cause he killed a man and 'chanted' Allahu Akbar(with being pedantic, there's no sources saying he 'chanted' it, he said possibly said it - leading to the next contention - when is it a phrase uttered and when is it a chant)

 

I could go kill someone and shout whatever I like to do with anything - that doesn't mean it holds enough weight to implicate that faction. I actually believe from the carefree and casual attitudes of both of these gentlemen that they were not entirely free of intoxication.

 

There have, I'm more than sure, been people who do crazy stuff and kill people and they're so deluded they say they're doing it in the 'name of God' - what's the difference? Who comes out to condemn that? What if they've mental health issues or drug induced psychosis?

 

 

Most of all from all of this, and some will highly disagree; I'm glad they were shot and left alive that we might get a truer story at the end of all of this; straight from the horses' mouths; hopefully.

[Fierce_LiNk]

Well it's a religion, and as we all know religions can lead to incredibly stupid things.

 

A bit unfair. Religion also gives people hope and gives them a belief that they will go to a better place when they die. Let's not turn this into a "religion is shit" thread.

 

Thus I don't get why everyone is so eager to give Islam a free pass when Christianity is almost systematically torn to shreds everywhere. Yes, it might be a minority religion here, but that shouldn't make it immune to criticism. I mean at least the Christian extremists don't bomb the shit out of people or hack their heads off. Plus women can do whatever they want here.

 

I'll put this one down to you being in a different country to me/many people here, but Islam is certainly not given a free pass at all...

 

Also, what about Anders Breivik? Killing 77 and injuring 151 as he felt that Norway's Christian values were being undermimed. This was only two years ago.

 

Anyway, the burden of proof is definitely on the Muslim communities. The public face of Islam is that of extremity, i.e. "bomb, rape and kill" in the news. What can you expect of people to think of that? It's stories like this and this that make you think that something is awfully wrong with the religion. If they want to change that impression, they need to a) explain why Islam is so prone to producing such life-shattering extremism and b) provide more information about what the religion even is. Europe's majority religion is Christianity, so most people don't have a clue about what Islam really is, especially when it's taught and practised privately. The only things people see and hear are atrocities like this. Constant and majorly bad press, which is not a good thing for any minority in any country.

 

Not sure if serious.

Do you not have Muslim/Islam education in your country? It is taught in schools, along with the other "main" religions of the world (Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Sikhism) Islam, by definition, is meant to be a peaceful religion. Being brought up as a Muslim by my family has taught me that you should respect your elders, you shouldn't look to start arguments, fights or confrontations and that you life should be led in a peaceful way. The majority of Muslims you will ever meet will say the same thing. The principals of the religion are about charity, caring for others and taking care of your family.

 

Unfortunately, there are people out there who commit atrocities and who kill others in the name of Islam. They are NOT Muslims because you are not taught to do this. You are taught to do the opposite. People like those attacks from yesterday are not committing these crimes for the good of Islam, they are doing it for their own benefit and to cause further disruption between groups of people.

 

You'll never hear anything about Muslims (or even about many Christians or Jews for that matter) doing good because that news doesn't sell. Look at the top stories on BBC News right now aside from this one:

 

Obama defends "just drones" war (War)

April accused Paedophile denial (murder)

Tour Chief sorry for "coloured" remark (racism)

Hidden Camera GP jailed for abuse (intrusion...)

Arrests in Nursery Sex Assault probe (sexual assault)

Global Markets fall on growth fears (the next depression)

Briton in French prison found dead (murder)

Inquiry call over NHS 111 debacle

 

This is all off the front page.

 

Finally, the term "Allah hu Akbar" (or other spelling variations) is used during prayer and at times to praise God. It should NOT be used in conjunction with any act of violence. Doing so is wrong.

[Ville]

Shouldn't we know better?

 

But it's really not about us, but the general public. Many people don't give a rat's ass about other cultures or religions, and for them it's the news that paint the picture. If it's always negative, so is their conclusion.

 

Public face of islam is 'bomb rape kill in the news' - ok. I won't deny that's quite probably accurate. How do the non-raping non-bombing non-killing muslims get themselves in the news then? They don't control it. Extreme acts and things against the norm get reported in the news; what news channel is going to carry a big story on 'Normal muslim man goes to mosque, lives life just like average white man!' - none. Maybe even lives life BETTER than average white man. (that's morally, of course, I'm sure plenty are already claiming that headline on a material front )

Like I said, the problem is not knowing, which only increases the fear. No matter how zany some Christians may be at times, at least people know the general idea behind the whole thing. We've been to churches, we've listened to sermons, learnt about it on school, gone through confirmation etc. Even if it's crazy, it's still our crazy, plus they don't horribly murder our whole family if we criticize them. Islam, however, is just unknown. How many people have even visited a mosque, let alone heard sermons there? Not me, and I'm probably not alone in that. Even the children at school go study it separately, at least in here. It's private and hidden, which coupled with the extremely negative news is not a good combination.

 

Consider this contentious point - There was no muslim terrorism in the UK until Iraq

Yeah, I think that's a good attitude.

 

EDIT: let me sum this way - it will sound extreme but let me just put it like this. You get told you're going to see a film, it's highly graphic and highly offensive. You will most likely be offended. You still attend to watch - within seconds it's child porn. Would you ever have expected it? Maybe it's beyond the limits of offensiveness you'd never even consider it, it's something so unbelievable and offensive you wouldn't even have considered it a possibility. What if, for muslims, this is that for them? We don't think it, it's not our culture, but you could understand such a response if I frame it in such a context of child pornography. I'm not saying it's equivalent, but the culture is different - it may be just as extreme for them as child porn is for us. What would you do with that, @Ville?

You protest such a display, and you're suppressed by the authorities for such an action - how do you feel NOW?

I would probably just rise up and leave. If it was something illegal, then of course you'd also have to report it. The difference here is the violence, just like with the cartoons. Yes it might be a cultural difference, but in my opinion getting so riled up about a picture on paper (or a film like here) is just ridiculous. Even if something is offensive to you, people have no right to start manhandling others for that. The Western countries have freedom of speech for a reason, and it includes the freedom to criticise and make fun of. Turning to violence is just a sign of immaturity and living in a fantasy world filled with egoistical pride, where all criticism must be stiffled with extreme force. Edited May 23, 2013 by Ville

[MoogleViper]

EDIT: let me sum this way - it will sound extreme but let me just put it like this. You get told you're going to see a film, it's highly graphic and highly offensive. You will most likely be offended. You still attend to watch - within seconds it's child porn. Would you ever have expected it? Maybe it's beyond the limits of offensiveness you'd never even consider it, it's something so unbelievable and offensive you wouldn't even have considered it a possibility. What if, for muslims, this is that for them? We don't think it, it's not our culture, but you could understand such a response if I frame it in such a context of child pornography. I'm not saying it's equivalent, but the culture is different - it may be just as extreme for them as child porn is for us.

 

You can't really compare. Nobody was hurt in the drawing of a cartoon.

[Ashley]

Actually, a lot of South Koreans have been hurt in the drawing of cartoons...but that's a different issue.