Skin Colour, Races and Racism

[Rummy]

@Jonnas I'd like to actually explore the cultural differences in racism with you in a bit but first I do wanna pop a couple things in here but particularly to @Pestneb:

Convo isn't happy or easy bro; I get that. But please don't withdraw from it. We gotta work together to move forward - again as I said I got a lot of respect for you throughout your time as a member here and I wouldn't put you in any category that falls into the racist lines(tho you gotta admit irony in frustration of being labelled as something because of your ethnic origins )

 

ANYHOW. I think I posted this here before; maybe I did not. It is ~15 minutes and it is well worth a watch. PLEASE everybody do and reply - because ai have follow ups; but I wanna keep it dynamic too.

 

 

[Will]

It’s been a while since I’d seen that but it’s still super interesting. It’s amazing how quickly views can take hold and just become something that causes ongoing discrimination of whatever kind it may be. While we’ve moved on (for the most part) from the absolute racism of the past there are still far too many systems and constructs that lead to inequality in our society. Even with the very best of intentions I think most of us have some sort of bias on other people for no good reason.

On a personal level I find all of this quite hard to deal with or know what the right thing to do is. As a relatively well off white British person you’ve pretty much won the social lottery and never have to experience a lot of what other people go through. I want to do whatever I can to support equality for everyone but don’t really know what that should look like to actually make a meaningful change.

[Jonnas]

17 hours ago, Rummy said:

@Jonnas I'd like to actually explore the cultural differences in racism with you in a bit 

Sure, I can try, at least. I'm part of the majority in my own country, so my perspective is what it is. Anything in particular you have in mind?

Regarding the blue and brown eyes video, I had stumbled upon it before, yes (and its variants). Serves well as an introduction to racism, how arbitrary it can be, and how oppressive it feels, even if it is one very focused on U.S. society. It is ultimately only an introduction, but anything that teaches the majority about the experience of minorities is valuable.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Jonnas

[Rummy]

21 hours ago, will' said:

It’s been a while since I’d seen that but it’s still super interesting. It’s amazing how quickly views can take hold and just become something that causes ongoing discrimination of whatever kind it may be. While we’ve moved on (for the most part) from the absolute racism of the past there are still far too many systems and constructs that lead to inequality in our society. Even with the very best of intentions I think most of us have some sort of bias on other people for no good reason.

On a personal level I find all of this quite hard to deal with or know what the right thing to do is. As a relatively well off white British person you’ve pretty much won the social lottery and never have to experience a lot of what other people go through. I want to do whatever I can to support equality for everyone but don’t really know what that should look like to actually make a meaningful change.

For the first - I did not know Jane Elliott's name before a few weeks back as #BLM was re-invigorating following George Floyd's murder, tho just before I had been looking at a few of the older US cases - Amadou Diallo being one. Maybe spurred by Ahmaud Aubery's murder I can't recall.

 

Then someone posted about her and oh man. She is one badass white lady - if you wanna know how to be when you're white and privileged in all this?? Be lile Jane Elliott(random ~4mins ive pulled);

 

I had NOT before Floyd's murder, in plain daylight, known she continued to replicated her experiment throughout her life(nor her name; i clocked her by voice in a video like the above). With adults and young adults too. Oh boy now THAT is even more interesting. This one is long; with a snippet of where she makes one participant cry to showcase it beforehand; but the full video follows and it is good to see again but now in a much more curious context as you are dealing with more 'matured' individuals;

 

The full vid of the above(please watch; i have another to come too - the point is to note the differences in each of the experimental groups each time) at ~40min;

 

[Will]

2 hours ago, Rummy said:

I had NOT before Floyd's murder, in plain daylight, known she continued to replicated her experiment throughout her life. With adults and young adults too. Oh boy now THAT is even more interesting. This one is long; with a snippet of where she makes one participant cry to showcase it beforehand; but the full video follows and it is good to see again but now in a much more curious context as you are dealing with more 'matured' individuals;

Well, now I feel stupid. I've seen these before and never put it together that they were from the same person.

One thing I'd not seen before is the full 40-minute version of that clip. Going to grab a cup of tea and watch that now. Looking forward to seeing the aftermath of that clip. From the shorter version you see it's very easy to be against racism and agree with what people are saying, but as soon as it's directly on you and your actions it's very hard to change and stand up and say you were at fault. I don't think I've ever been in that kind of situation but I'm sure I would find it just as difficult.

2 hours ago, Rummy said:

if you wanna know how to be when you're white and privileged in all this?? Be lile Jane Elliott(random ~4mins ive pulled);

I do agree, but how do I translate that to practical real-life action that makes things better?

[Will]

Watched the 40 minute video and it really is a good expansion on the clips, everyone should watch it. The main takeaway I have from is that we have to recognize people’s identity (race, sexuality, whatever) and work towards a society where those things do not matter to people having equal opportunities and a protected way of life. Of course that should be obvious, but it’s good to write it down and think about it.

The quote at the end is really quite depressing “When am I going to quit? When racists quit. Do I have a job for a lifetime? I’m afraid so” - it’s the one time you see her get completely cut up by it all and just terrible that even now we have so far to go.

We’re in such a weird time, we seem to have an even mix of people who are all about division and “me first” mentality and others who want everything sanitized so we don’t even have to think about anything that might upset us.

From my observations the UK is better than most, with the vast majority of people having the right mindset though probably not actively doing anything to drive things forward (I guess I’m in this group). We have such a bad past though it’s hard to know what to do. I agree with the remove of slave trade statues but what the hell do you do about someone like Churchill? He was at the very least a supporter of our colonial past and held views that would be abhorrent today, but he was also our leader at the darkest time of the last century and symbol of us coming through that - so what do you do about the statues? I don’t see a solution where all people can be happy.

Other things such as the monarchy really have no place in modern society yet we have it and many people (myself included) quite like it - what do you do there?

It’s very hard for people to let go of the past and things that benefit them, there is still a very long way to go.

[Rummy]

20 hours ago, will' said:

Well, now I feel stupid. I've seen these before and never put it together that they were from the same person.*1

I do agree, but how do I translate that to practical real-life action that makes things better?*2

Quote system annoys me on phone.

*1 hahaha; you know I juat realised it was actually @Kav who shared some vid of older Jane Elliott on FB and I lost my shit on hearing that voice. I had to binge on her. This video even came up and it is perfect in some ways(~45seconds);

 

*2. Well. This is awkward. Its real nice to hear but...barely anyone gave us a manual on how to navigate being black* in a mostly white world; let alone one on telling white people how to deal with black people in their white world!! My main advice - get some correct spirituality from the correct sort of people; but sadly your eye will probably not discern those people well right now.

So what else to do? You say yourself to be white, privileged - in some ways naive. So you gotta educate yourself brother - and that means doing what we do every single day. Carrying on no matter how tiring it is. Have mpre conversations with every 'non-british' you can get your hands on AND 'non-white' or 'non-english' British people. Sure converse with them debate etc. but don't make the mistake(and it is an understandable one) of trying to always relate or defend a point that you feel attacks you because you do NOT relate. The real big point we have to make right now and oh my god it upsets so many fragile white egos because they're so unused to this basic fact of the moment; this basic fact of existence for a small temporary while for them - This. Is. NOT. About. YOU. You have all of currently written and taught history can we literally get just like ten minutes or so for a bit here please??

If you know you are ignorant why take then the arrogance of a position to argue with us as if you were not? You twat yourself off. Then we roll our eyes at 'just another white fool' and its the same cycle all over again. Stop expecting us to fix YOUR problems - we barely treading water and you're asking us to swim over and rescue you because you were privileged/ignorant enough to not know the dangers of the deep end.

We will still rescue you, mind. But we will roll our eyes and think 'just another white fool'. Hopefully our token of love will change you; most likely it will for a but then you return to your ignorant white world and forget. There you have the same problem as us - you need to fit. Standing up for niggers ain't fitting.

So in essence many know deep down what they need to or should do - but they are scared of the risk and loss to themselves(mentally too - admitting you've been passively racist and complicit in a timeless racial oppression when you dont believe you have a racist bone in your body can shock you hard and make you question a lot, if you are brave enough not to run). It's all in essence about having the righteous conviction, the passion, the belief and the understanding - all like what Jane Elliott has and never letting it go because you want to fit into your comfortable white society. For everything if I could give - I would name her as black* as if not even blacker* than us and give her every bit of love and welcome in our communities as a respected elder. Strive to be that if you're white.

 

(also; talk to some LGBT+ or other margianilised groups too - find the similarities of prejudice and discrimination even between differences - so you can see and challenge/change it).

 

/longrant

 

 

*black; - i use this a few times. the honest truth is this whole convo is complex. it is NOT black and white - but for now, to start, it is neccessary to keep it simple whilst others do not understand. I am NOT 'black' by any traditional sense of genes heritages etc. however maybe it could be argued by many other lines that I am.

However for now until we tell that, for these conversations and BLM etc. I'll be every bit the nigger haters want me to be and I will fight that fight. My heritage is a whole other chapter to this story and - don't worry; I am coming back to @Jonnas eventually too - it contains its own realms of racism that may be interesting to some here too.

 

***yes i dropped the n bomb. yes it is a violent word; but I guess the world made me a violent man through all of these things. I will not be told to cut my language here - unless someone with a good right/case asks me to. I do realise it IS offensive and I personally tend to not use it around certain people with black heritages but I do as of the last few years use it and I will do it in this debate too. If it makes people flinch just because it is forbidden and hurts their sensibilities - well again golly gosh try living every day of your life being black.

[Will]

1 hour ago, Rummy said:

Quote system annoys me on phone.

I find the entire quote system to be a pain at the best of times.

1 hour ago, Rummy said:

*1 hahaha; you know I juat realised it was actually @Kav who shared some vid of older Jane Elliott on FB and I lost my shit on hearing that voice. I had to binge on her. This video even came up and it is perfect in some ways(~45seconds);

Yeah that’s another great clip that shows the acknowledgement that nobody wants the situation for themselves but allow it to continue through inaction.

1 hour ago, Rummy said:

*2. Well. This is awkward. Its real nice to hear but...barely anyone gave us a manual on how to navigate being black* in a mostly white world; let alone one on telling white people how to deal with black people in their white world!! My main advice - get some correct spirituality from the correct sort of people; but sadly your eye will probably not discern those people well right now.

Sorry, I didn’t mean that as a “hey black people, tell me how to navigate this situation because I’m too lazy”, I meant it in more of a rhetorical way that despite trying to understand all of this more, I still don’t know the best way to actually participate in improving our society. I think it’s easy to not be actively racist but what’s becoming clear is that it’s not enough. Right now I’m trying to figure out what that means for me and how to be a positive (rather than just neutral) contributor to this cause.

I’ve been thinking a lot about how our fundamental systems and players within them are the root cause of these problems and pushing them from the inside is a way to effect real change. Considering looking into how to become politically active to drive things forward.

[Rummy]

I mean actively and actually - its literally just talking to 'the other side'. Sorry I myself didnt mean to be so long and preachy but given public thread went at it - actively you will improve society by improving yourself. You can improve yourself with education; and that can be via conversation and stories of people which is far richer than books. It sounds simple; but it really is. You don't need to be a hero or a preacher; if you and everyone else in your position or your sense of feeling overcome it all personally and continue to do so - will it not then start to shrink and reduce in society? A problem is socities have longer lifetimes than average humans do at any point of their perspective and they can therefore be very bad at understanding that their contribution is longer term; longer term than their lifetime. You can't get instant gratifaction fighting this fight I'm afraid bro. You need a LOT of confidence and self-security if you wanna be a warrior in this battle - again Jane Elliott personifies it. And oh btw!!

I ain't done with her yet. My final vid will be my driving point; but the whole journey valuable to also enrich that one. It's going to be the most curious of all; and once you have seen it you will know why I kicked this off as a topic to discuss.

[Will]

The thing is I’m just not sure that’s enough anymore. While I don’t expect to turn myself into Jane Elliott, I think we need to do more than being passively non-racist. There are a lot problems endemic in our systems and society that will not change unless we take an active stance in making it happen.

[Rummy]

7 hours ago, will' said:

The thing is I’m just not sure that’s enough anymore. While I don’t expect to turn myself into Jane Elliott, I think we need to do more than being passively non-racist. There are a lot problems endemic in our systems and society that will not change unless we take an active stance in making it happen.

You didn't listen to a single thing I said about shutting up listening to me not making it about you and stopping thinking YOU can fix it in a lifetime(although you CAN do a lot...what you just did is NOT it). Start with yourself and get that down to a T; the rest will follow. You yourself MAY once you have done this be someone with much power to undertake actions that bring big change - odds basis it is not likely from what I know or see. In that...just focus and work very hard on yourself...the rest will follow if you do it genuinely; and don't spend it looking to a future you cannot achieve in your lifetime as if you actually might. It will be your ego distracting you and failing in the fight to be useful.

 

However you give me my reason to come to the most curious of the Jane Elliott videos. The reason too why I tagged @Pestneb. You may or may not notice it but something notably huge differs in this replication - and it is the British replication. It is ever so very curious to see(~47min);

 

 

[Will]

28 minutes ago, Rummy said:

You didn't listen to a single thing I said about shutting up listening to me not making it about you and stopping thinking YOU can fix it in a lifetime(although you CAN do a lot...what you just did is NOT it). Start with yourself and get that down to a T; the rest will follow. You yourself MAY once you have done this be someone with much power to undertake actions that bring big change - odds basis it is not likely from what I know or see. In that...just focus and work very hard on yourself...the rest will follow if you do it genuinely; and don't spend it looking to a future you cannot achieve in your lifetime as if you actually might. It will be your ego distracting you and failing in the fight to be useful

I’m not saying that I or any one particular person is going to fix this. We can’t just sit back and think as long as I am not a racist and do everything right then others will follow. People that hold racist views or support systems that enable it are not just going to wake up one day and change their mind. We need to actively do things to bring on that change. Of course that starts with educating yourself and acting accordingly - but it won’t be enough to drive any real change - and isn’t that what this is all about?

[Will]

1 hour ago, Rummy said:

However you give me my reason to come to the most curious of the Jane Elliott videos. The reason too why I tagged @Pestneb. You may or may not notice it but something notably huge differs in this replication - and it is the British replication. It is ever so very curious to see(~47min);

This one is really interesting. I remember watching it at the time and I was definitely of the view point of a lot of the white people involved - that I don’t need to learn about this stuff and I live my life in the right way - I don’t see these problems so they don’t exist. Watching it again now it says something totally different to me, and it’s what I’ve been getting at in my other comments, that we live in a system that benefits us and it’s too easy to think we do enough and ignore the more difficult aspects or things that would lead to us needing to do anything more than be passively not racist.

I think all reasonable (white) people at at least passively not racist, what we need to work out is how to be actively anti-racist, and this is what I find myself personally struggling with at the moment.

[Pestneb]

On 6/18/2020 at 8:33 AM, Rummy said:

@Jonnas I'd like to actually explore the cultural differences in racism with you in a bit but first I do wanna pop a couple things in here but particularly to @Pestneb:

Convo isn't happy or easy bro; I get that. But please don't withdraw from it.

 

 

Hey, not withdrawing, just don't have time to really engage with this, (I don't even really have time to type this!) tbh the time I have doesn't allow me to communicate properly  which is fine on some topics but I'm sure you agree that this topic requires a bit more respect I suppose is the best word that comes to mind. Still reading through from time to time when I get a few minutes.

[Rummy]

Aye no worries! Do try the Jane Elliott stuff(but leave the British one til last).

9 hours ago, will' said:

Watching it again now it says something totally different to me, and it’s what I’ve been getting at in my other comments, that we live in a system that benefits us and it’s too easy to think we do enough and ignore the more difficult aspects or things that would lead to us needing to do anything more than be passively not racist.

I think all reasonable (white) people at at least passively not racist, what we need to work out is how to be actively anti-racist, and this is what I find myself personally struggling with at the moment.

Being passively not racist as you say is not really enough. Individually if everyone starts being actively not racist however - even tho they are starting and working with themselves - is the very first step.

So far for me I have had some confusions and will continue to have them. Firstly I was amazed at the passion of some white folk I know - yet early on one was going VERY hard om the issue and ACAB(soz coppers but yes ACAB regardless of you I will gladly explain to all who wish to know why it is so even if you think my sentiment echoes racism - it doesnt btw. because we get no choice of uniform beyond that with which we are born) but even so there was a bit where I almost wanted to tell a white person to 'Calm Down' and stop 'Virtue Signalling' and then I realised even *I*, a brown man, was indoctrinated in a system that itself discourages race complainaints. I quickly realised I was wrong and now I disregard that thought.

 

Another funny...actually hold that thought I may just upload it some pics...

 

(Sneaky shout to THE forum's Destiny man @DriftKaiser on this chuckle)

But yeah. That's a weird thing. I have been called an 'ally' before but that was by folks of a rather liberal social group of genderqueer and sex workers etc. I did not really see the need for or lile it at the time - as if I would be anything less than an 'ally' to my fellow good hearted humans(and really some of these bunch have the richest hearts you will ever experience) - but I have to say this recent BLM rising has made me appteciate it more. I see the ones who fight, who stan, I see the ones who do not. I see the ones who wish to and have intent and do their best - and I see the ones who come to me and talk to me; as well as I see the ones who do not.  This whole issue is barely even started - sure it has sent massive shockwaves but I agree somewhat with you and your sentiments will - there is a whole heap of shit yet to go. The current appearance of the world and the force of the recent BLM rising is in real essence barely a fracture line in the nut/skin of the fruit; no matter how much it seems to currently be a big deal.

 

On a tangent from that - did you happen to see the video of the woman doing the monopoly analogy? her most powerful words for me(no doubt seized upon aa aggressive and violent etcetc) was that 'y'all' are lucky blacks are still out here only asking to be treated equal and not seeking revenge. If you did - how did it sit hearing it from the privileged white view(my apologies for steering this a bit already) @will'?

 

[Will]

1 hour ago, Rummy said:

On a tangent from that - did you happen to see the video of the woman doing the monopoly analogy? her most powerful words for me(no doubt seized upon aa aggressive and violent etcetc) was that 'y'all' are lucky blacks are still out here only asking to be treated equal and not seeking revenge. If you did - how did it sit hearing it from the privileged white view(my apologies for steering this a bit already) @will'?

I hadn’t seen it before - glad you brought it to my attention. I completely agree with everything she says.

I think this is the very difficult thing that we, as white privileged people, need to come to accept and work to change. There was a time where I was very much in the camp of “I wasn’t a slave owner, I’ve never persecuted anyone, I’m a good modern thinking person so what do I have to be sorry for or what change do I need to make”, but this is far too short sighted a view. As she so rightly puts, the game has been rigged in our favour for centuries, and it’s these systems we now need to work on to create a better future for everyone. 

I hope more people see that video to help them understand how we got to where we are and why the privileged people also have an important role to play in this.

Kind of reminded me of this one showing how the advantages we have play into life.

Letting go of the advantages we have? That’s going to be really tough.

[Rummy]

Now you see maybe where I am coming from(not to suggest you didnt before this has been a MOST excellent conversation so far and I thank you foe it) about the longer term nature of this struggle and how it is bigger than your lifetime. It came before you and it will continue after you. It is one of the factors as to why the racists often win small battles - the field is tilted in their favour. The war however? That is a different story. Yes you think you are not guilty and of course you are not - but yes you are benefitting off land soil food and riches nourished by the literal blood sweat and tears of my ancestors. You DO owe us - the challenge and solution or reparation is to start paying back(and with interest). The British however have committed so many crimes and atrocities in their time however that their actual reckoning in front of Truth terrifies them. Admitting even one crime is a very dangerous precedent for them - as all the others mau subsequently come out and be tried. And they know they done a whooolle lot of wrong.

Look even right now in the news - why will we not return the Elgin(alol) Marbles? Why is our kohinoor, the cursed diamond, still within your crown jewels? They say it was stolen originally as one of the eyes of a motger goddess statue; adorned with rarity wnd beauty in tribute. It was not a point of wealth or money - not until the British came. However stories of lead to gold immortality and the ability to gain such only if you do not seek to profit is a whole other story with its own whole line. /rwnt

 

I've seen that quite literal race video before; very powerful. Iirc at the time I had some issues with it but still found it powerful as an eye-opener. In some ways I guess it oversimplified things too much for *me*.

 

Did you ever see Dave's performance of 'Black' at The Brits? I happened to be wathcing live for the first time in very very many years and had never heard of him even before that. He won some notable awards but for me his song and performance was pure hot fyah and I haven't quite been the same since;

 

[Will]

3 hours ago, Rummy said:

Look even right now in the news - why will we not return the Elgin(alol) Marbles? Why is our kohinoor, the cursed diamond, still within your crown jewels? They say it was stolen originally as one of the eyes of a motger goddess statue; adorned with rarity wnd beauty in tribute. It was not a point of wealth or money - not until the British came. However stories of lead to gold immortality and the ability to gain such only if you do not seek to profit is a whole other story with its own whole line. /rwnt

I guess this plays off the point of it’s a longer standing problem than any one lifetime. Here it becomes a problem because these things have been “ours” for as long as we remember, and weren’t “stolen” by us therefor we can keep them and others have no right to them. We really need to change our thinking in these areas.

4 hours ago, Rummy said:

I've seen that quite literal race video before; very powerful. Iirc at the time I had some issues with it but still found it powerful as an eye-opener. In some ways I guess it oversimplified things too much for *me*.

I agree it’s a little simple, but as an introduction to white privileged I think it’s a solid and easy to understand demonstration. It does need to be followed up with proper education though.

4 hours ago, Rummy said:

Did you ever see Dave's performance of 'Black' at The Brits? I happened to be wathcing live for the first time in very very many years and had never heard of him even before that. He won some notable awards but for me his song and performance was pure hot fyah and I haven't quite been the same since;

I’d never seen this or heard of him. It’s a very powerful song and must have taken a lot to come out with some of that like that.

[Rummy]

Me either. I will make this point tho - he is a shit rapper. He should not have to be in that and he maybe is because he is black. He is a fantastic poet. A brilliant artist. His rap is shit. Shit rapper.

 

Now though @will' before I turn to Jonnas and my point there I'm gonna ask you a question that may cause an immediate lurch in your heart and you will tell yourself there is a trick and not to tell me the truthful and honest answer - overcome and do not do that.

 

My name is Rummy. Rummy Singh if you know it. If you did not know it - what image of me as an ethnic person existed in your mind? Has my name just changed that form? What is it now?

 

Nobody here of worth will judge you; nor will you be held to your honesty as a flaw. My personal guarantee. Tell any bitch who tries to go see Papa Rum and to sit the fuck down shut the fuck up and start listening because in 4 seconds a teacher will begin to speak; and I will deliver then a fresh fine lyrical beatdown with an education attached for good measure 

[Will]

1 hour ago, Rummy said:

My name is Rummy. Rummy Singh if you know it. If you did not know it - what image of me as an ethnic person existed in your mind? Has my name just changed that form? What is it now?

I started thinking on this and had something very specific in my head. Immediately I was thinking of an English person of Indian descent with a big messy beard. I realized I’d recently watched one of your videos from the Covid-19 thread so I’m not sure how fair that is.

More generally the name Rummy wouldn’t mean anything to me, I don’t think I’d be able to place that at all. The surname Singh immediately makes me think of a Sikh and for whatever reason that’s a guy in a suit with a turban who’s working in an office.

[Rummy]

On 21/06/2020 at 10:57 AM, will' said:

I started thinking on this and had something very specific in my head. Immediately I was thinking of an English person of Indian descent with a big messy beard. I realized I’d recently watched one of your videos from the Covid-19 thread so I’m not sure how fair that is.

More generally the name Rummy wouldn’t mean anything to me, I don’t think I’d be able to place that at all. The surname Singh immediately makes me think of a Sikh and for whatever reason that’s a guy in a suit with a turban who’s working in an office.

Excellent, excellent! I think excercise like this are genuinely a useful thing for moving forwards. I often don't manage to form too much judgement of 'white' people but I do ofc very much just as you do often still try and 'judge' people and those of ethnic origins as to what they might be. Why do we do it?

I am british born(saaaf eest landan). My accent came to me more from the streets; and maybe having to fit in in the SE of england where UKIP BNP NF etcetc along with all the old paramilitaries that would have existed all the way up to essex and whatnot in the 90s. Luckily I was just about young enough to miss major violences but obvs had my own share and plenty or racisms.

Rummy isn't actually a given name per se - again it was given to me by the streets places and people I used to hang with - at 15 I smashed some bacardi steeet drinking and a 15 year old on hard spirits without a tolerance built very quickly led to a hospital visit  My actual name is an exceptionally Christian one but not many people know of it nor use it(called by Rummy or Singh).

The surname Singh! Now this is a once. Aye often used by Sikh men(middle name technically) - but apparently a number of Sikhs used it for surname when emigrated or the old systems got fed up with so many Singhs they just started to allow then all or something lol(dunno if too many foreign surnames to process too).

 

My heritage tho? My parents are both Indian Guyanese(of british guyana, tip of south america and considered by of West Indies/Carribean by some British measures). I don't have a lot of family history to hand my the British stole my people and relocated them to labour in their colony of British Guyana and here I am. I most likely have some black in me somewhere apparently a bit of chinese and pretty sure buck runs in my dad's side family too - so I am for myself a curious entity. Mostly tho everything DOES look indian - and my surname does not help.

 

Which brings me back to what I was gonna raise with @Jonnas earlier. What for this I guess is 'non-white' racism which often confuses me - racism or discrimination within groups of people of colour or ethnicity who then as still despite oft no doubt suffering discrimination themselves - discriminated against others.

A classic example for me is when I get chatting to people actually from India ans Asia by more recent roots - theres often amongst some a bit of a dropped 'Oh.' tone when I tell them I am guyanese. Many indians I have met love to know where other indian seeming folks are from - but some have often seemed almost hugely disappointed that I'm not as close to the mainland and convo fizzles. It doesn't bother me tons too much but I have found it curious enough to note amongst some of the more Indian folks.

[Beast]

I have been having big discussions as of late about everything and I think this has been the time where I have actually realised just how much I've faced and put to the back of my mind and it's taken me by surprise. I'm speaking solely on my experiences when I say this but as far as I am aware, I have been given a fair shout at most things such as jobs and schools and colleges. For me, it's been more personal experiences than anything and I've found that my tolerance over the years have changed because of them.

For example, on a personal level, I dislike it when anybody uses the word "nigger" and I hate it when white people use it and then use the argument that black people use it too so it's okay. It's not too bad in a joke that isn't derogatory but even then, I sort of cringe a little inside. I don't necessarily say "HOW DOUBLE-DARE YOU!" but at the same time, I think they kind of realise I feel a little uneasy about it. I've had a couple of black people even approach me about the subject on how I feel and when I say I don't like it, I got the "Oh, you're that type of guy", which kind of bugs me and makes me feel a little odd- kind of like I should be okay with another black person saying it. Personally, I just think that it should be something that should never be said by anybody. The word and its meaning is derogatory and I don't really like it. The whole "We're taking the word back" is something that annoys me too. Again, I don't judge anybody using the word in a non-derogatory way (I know it sounds like I do but truly, I don't) but I can't deny my feelings behind it.

Another thing I've kind of faced over the past few weeks is the whole "us vs. them" attitude, which I believe is something that was touched on earlier. I've had to explain it to people that it's not directly aimed at them whatsoever but I even had a friend be truly mis-informed and say that black people want it so they overrule everybody. I just said "All it is is nothing more than to be treated equally. I don't get what's so bad about that".

My worst experience was in one of my work places where I worked for over a year and a bit and I was hearing some disgusting comments but I was too afraid to say anything and believe me when I say this, it's one of the biggest regrets of my life. I mean, some of the things they came out with were absolutely foul to the point it made me an angry person and I almost came to blows with one of the head staff in the shop. I remember the last occasion where the manager brought me and two other supervisors into the CCTV room to find a Black man robbing make-up, which is very obviously wrong and I was about to call security so they could find whether he was a police alert and the manager shouted "GOT YOU, YOU BLACK BASTARD!" and then looked straight at me and said "No offence". I just replied "I'm not going to lie, that's made me feel awkward" and she just dismissed my comment and carried on. I looked at the other two supervisors and none of them really batted an eyelid so I just clearly said "I can see this place clearly now" and I left.

For me, I just think that people are not going to change their minds so easily. Don't get me wrong, it's great to see people be against anti-racism but it is getting to the point for me where I'm hoping it will stay that way but I'm not holding my breath.

On 23/06/2020 at 10:51 AM, Rummy said:

Which brings me back to what I was gonna raise with @Jonnas earlier. What for this I guess is 'non-white' racism which often confuses me - racism or discrimination within groups of people of colour or ethnicity who then as still despite oft no doubt suffering discrimination themselves - discriminated against others.

A classic example for me is when I get chatting to people actually from India ans Asia by more recent roots - theres often amongst some a bit of a dropped 'Oh.' tone when I tell them I am guyanese. Many indians I have met love to know where other indian seeming folks are from - but some have often seemed almost hugely disappointed that I'm not as close to the mainland and convo fizzles. It doesn't bother me tons too much but I have found it curious enough to note amongst some of the more Indian folks.

It's weird you say this because a lot of my experiences has been from non-white people because I'm mixed race. With white people, it's the usual derogatory racial slurs but with non-whites, I'm not black enough/an abomination/race traitor/watered-down black man/fake black/etc. I also get it a lot from Indians who think I speak their language and then, when it turns out I don't understand it, they look at me in disgust and carry on talking in their own language. Depending on how I have my hair or my facial hair, I apparently look Indian or Turkish when in actual fact, I'm white and black Caribbean.

I think if I'm truly being honest here, apart from the obvious shit that I've had over the years, the thing that truly bothers me is the "Equal Opportunities" forms. I understand them but it's quite rare to actually find a box for "Mixed (Please specify). I ticked "White" and "Black Caribbean" for my job at the shoe shop and she asked "You've ticked both?" and I said "Yeah. Nothing against you but I'm tired of not being able to choose "Mixed" because it's not in there. I'm a mixed race man. I'm not just White and I'm not just Black Caribbean either" and she actually smiled, laughed and said "Ha! 'Equal Opportunities' my arse" and years later, I'm still there and the new forms have been updated to include Mixed people. I doubt it had anything to do with me but it's just nice to see it finally being recognised.

[bob]

 

22 hours ago, Animal said:

I have been having big discussions as of late about everything and I think this has been the time where I have actually realised just how much I've faced and put to the back of my mind and it's taken me by surprise. I'm speaking solely on my experiences when I say this but as far as I am aware, I have been given a fair shout at most things such as jobs and schools and colleges. For me, it's been more personal experiences than anything and I've found that my tolerance over the years have changed because of them.
For example, on a personal level, I dislike it when anybody uses the word "nigger" and I hate it when white people use it and then use the argument that black people use it too so it's okay. It's not too bad in a joke that isn't derogatory but even then, I sort of cringe a little inside. I don't necessarily say "HOW DOUBLE-DARE YOU!" but at the same time, I think they kind of realise I feel a little uneasy about it. I've had a couple of black people even approach me about the subject on how I feel and when I say I don't like it, I got the "Oh, you're that type of guy", which kind of bugs me and makes me feel a little odd- kind of like I should be okay with another black person saying it. Personally, I just think that it should be something that should never be said by anybody. The word and its meaning is derogatory and I don't really like it. The whole "We're taking the word back" is something that annoys me too. Again, I don't judge anybody using the word in a non-derogatory way (I know it sounds like I do but truly, I don't) but I can't deny my feelings behind it.

 

 

 

The whole 'n' word thing has always seemed a bit counterintuitive to me.

When it comes to insulting words, it seems like you have two options:

1) Stop everyone saying it, and eventually it dies out. I guess there are hundreds of words like this throughout history that we don't use anymore, and thus don't have any power behind them.

2) Reclaim the word in a positive way until the meaning no longer works as an insult. The gay community successfully reclaimed the word 'queer' this way for example.

Trying to reclaim the 'n' word while at the same time stopping others from using it seems to be an unworkable combination of the two, where you end up with the word still having the power to insult, whilst remaining a common word. You end up in a ridiculous situation where you have a sliding scale of skin colour, where if you have some level of melanin where you suddenly become allowed to say a word.

I also remember that time a black rapper got a white girl up on stage to sing along to one of his songs, and then it got all awkward when she got to a lyric with the 'n' word and said it along with him, but the crowd reacted negatively, and the rapper backtracked etc.

I realise it's difficult because there is no 'council of black people' making decisions, but imo someone needs to make a decision and stick to it!

 

 

Edited June 25, 2020 by bob

[Goafer]

The thing with "the n word" is that white people will never be able to understand the weight it carries. We've never been on the receiving end of it, or any of the other prejudices that minorities face. For white people to say it is just a big no from me.

As for black people saying it, that's up to them. They understand the weight of it, and whilst I personally wouldn't use it if I were black, it's not for me to dictate what they can and can't say. If it brings a kind of solidarity, then so be it.

[Jonnas]

On 23/06/2020 at 10:51 AM, Rummy said:

Which brings me back to what I was gonna raise with @Jonnas earlier. What for this I guess is 'non-white' racism which often confuses me - racism or discrimination within groups of people of colour or ethnicity who then as still despite oft no doubt suffering discrimination themselves - discriminated against others.

A classic example for me is when I get chatting to people actually from India ans Asia by more recent roots - theres often amongst some a bit of a dropped 'Oh.' tone when I tell them I am guyanese. Many indians I have met love to know where other indian seeming folks are from - but some have often seemed almost hugely disappointed that I'm not as close to the mainland and convo fizzles. It doesn't bother me tons too much but I have found it curious enough to note amongst some of the more Indian folks.

Discrimination is, at its core, "othering" people who are unlike you. This mostly comes down to cultural backgrounds: If you feel a group of people doesn't share the same cultural references as you, you feel out of place. Boiling it down to appearances is reductive, and a small part of the puzzle. Sure, you may look Indian at first, but you don't know what it's like to be part of an Indian family, hence the disappointed looks: they first think you're part of their group, but you're part of an "other" group. Cultural background, and not the colour/look, is what dictates the dynamic in that conversation.

(Reminds me of how Portuguese media is always on the lookout for celebrities with connections to Portugal. They borderline harassed Tom Hanks with questions about his grandmother before realising he truly feels no connection to our culture, despite his genes.)

Considering stereotypes and such, racism amongst minorities is a logical thing to occur. Like, if my group is labelled as a bunch of simpletons, that sucks in a specific way, "but I don't see what that has to do with those thieving Poles/Gypsies, or those swindling Jews/Chinese, or those delinquent Ukrainians/Turks". Even if you were to recognize these stereotypes as bullshit or unfair, it's still not quite the same experience. And if you do believe in them (which is the most common response), all the more arguments/excuses to disrespect other groups.

(On a side-note, the idea that racism is "Prejudice + Power", or else it doesn't count, is bullshit. Power, prominence, and influence affects how much harm one's particular brand of discrimination brings, but evidently, a victim of racism has to deal with a whole spectrum of offences and disrespect.)

Going back to your experience, the conversation might shift in tone when Indians find out you're not Indian, but you can still find commonalities, because it's still entirely possible to be respectful towards people "not like yourself". When in Germany, I found it oddly easy to make friendly conversation with Turks, Iranians, Greeks, etc. even though those groups don't have much presence in Portugal (or not sharing quite the same religion, even), so it's possible, as long as there's a will. If they're still cold or unpleasant despite your attempts to connect, then, well, they're just rude, aren't they? As people, I mean.

3 hours ago, Animal said:

I think if I'm truly being honest here, apart from the obvious shit that I've had over the years, the thing that truly bothers me is the "Equal Opportunities" forms. I understand them but it's quite rare to actually find a box for "Mixed (Please specify). I ticked "White" and "Black Caribbean" for my job at the shoe shop and she asked "You've ticked both?" and I said "Yeah. Nothing against you but I'm tired of not being able to choose "Mixed" because it's not in there. I'm a mixed race man. I'm not just White and I'm not just Black Caribbean either" and she actually smiled, laughed and said "Ha! 'Equal Opportunities' my arse" and years later, I'm still there and the new forms have been updated to include Mixed people. I doubt it had anything to do with me but it's just nice to see it finally being recognised.

I hate forms like these, they make me livid. I find it outrageous that places like the US have it built into their census. Portugal does not have such forms, but some controversy arose a year or so ago when a personal questionnaire meant for schoolchildren included a question like that ("What's your ethnicity and/or cultural background?"). It doesn't matter how carefully you set it up, the mere act of acting the question, the options you're given, they always carry unfortunate implications, the first one being "Which races are there supposed to exist, according to this official-looking document?" and the second being "Why are they separate options?".

The children's questionnaire in Portugal included options such as "Portuguese", "Brazillian", "Black African", and "Gypsy" as entirely separate options, which is awful. If you're a Portuguese-born child of black Brazillian immigrants (and you know that means African descent), what the hell are you supposed to choose? Gypsy communities raised a fuss over it, and rightfully so.

I once applied for a British job network, and the CV form included such a question: there were like 5 different highly-specific shades of white, 5 different highly-specific shades of dark skin, and even 3 highly-specific shades of mixed, yet none of the options included "Southern European". Or simply "European". I'm pretty sure it was also missing Asian ethnicities other than Indian, Chinese, or Pakistani.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Jonnas