Skin Colour, Races and Racism

[Will]

UFC is not something I follow at all but good on him I say. Bring attention to the cause without any of the negative stuff that is all too often picked up on this kind of thing and is making people talk about it.

I hope more sports people continue to push these things where they can, the more people that are aware this is an ongoing battle the better.

[Rummy]

10 minutes ago, Will said:

UFC is not something I follow at all but good on him I say. Bring attention to the cause without any of the negative stuff that is all too often picked up on this kind of thing and is making people talk about it.

I hope more sports people continue to push these things where they can, the more people that are aware this is an ongoing battle the better.

I used to be into it quite a bit after the UFC game came out - just playing the demo got me interested in the people. Fell off quite a while ago whilst Jon Jones was just constantly on top but agree it's very interesting. Apparently Tyron Wooley actually made points to Dana White back since 2016 and the Brown killing that he wanted to try and utilise the platform and be a voice for BLM but it wasn't really taken to. I don't know much at all about Colby Covington beyond the name.

My kinda 'issue' here is what power it gives to either side who are vested in a race-conflict and the outcome. Getting off a bit more into religion but when McGregor kept trashing Kabib for being Muslim the sanctioned violence turned ugly post-match. I don't agree with any of the ring run-ins that occured but I did see Kabib being very passionate about how insulting McGregor had been to his culture and religion and that it wasn't particularly...polite? respectful? disciplined? I dunno quite the phrasing. Again for me with martial and all my interests(and a reason i enjoy martial arts and MMA) is that it can very starkly highlight lines and boundaries in 'acceptable' and 'sportly' behaviour. Not sure everyone always sees it the same though. Not even sure I'm making sense tbh.

[Will]

Yeah I don’t really know enough to comment on it. Generally I would say highlighting an issue should be allowed and encouraged, using race/religion/others as fuel to attack someone should be stamped out as fast and as harshly as possible.

[Rummy]

29 minutes ago, Will said:

Yeah I don’t really know enough to comment on it. Generally I would say highlighting an issue should be allowed and encouraged, using race/religion/others as fuel to attack someone should be stamped out as fast and as harshly as possible.

Traditionally a reason I liked the UFC is that despite its immense brutality the sportsmanship of the competitiors was generally pretty immense. Can you imagine having some guy kick the fucking shit out of you for 15-25 minutes break your nose bust your eyes and after it all you embrace him in a hug? There is a weird peace found within the violence of martial people like that - but I'll end up taking this all too far off topic with this - I'm going to be curious to see the result come Sunday/Monday and the general reaction of things to it by tinternets and medias.

[Beast]

On 13/09/2020 at 11:51 AM, Rummy said:

It's been a while and I still do want to address previous posts but oart of it is an eternal tiredness of fighting and making effort. I just came across this video on Reddit and oh man; it rings such a chord. This is such an invisible thing if you arent visually differentiable - but if you are you'd be amazed how quick or how often idiots and fools decide they have a right to resort to violence against you. I am personally somewhat quite martial in those arts but thankfully I had wise Senseis. I never was a fighter originally as a youth tho - I actually sadly had to learn to become capable just to survive from time to time. It is not something I neccessarily woulf have chosen even though I am glad for it now.

 

This the true Art of War though imo - Capability with Restraint. You'd be amazed how often targets of societal opporession have to do this - in mental and spiritual realms too beyond the physical alone.

 

 

I remember watching this a while back and thought it was disgusting then. It annoys me that cunts like this exist, it truly does. How fucking entitled and thuggish they are just makes my piss boil. 

I've never understood this in the first place though. Why are people so bothered about skin colour? I'm being serious. It's pigmentation. I mean, will they avoid the sun in case they get a tan and be mistaken to have brown skin? I honestly get truly depressed when I see shit like this and it kind of triggers me. I don't actually mean trigger as in crying but as in fucking angry. The worst part of it is it's happening more and more now. 2020, so far, has been truly awful for racism. 

The thing that pisses me off is when I put on some rock music and they always say "I would've thought you'd like grime or rap"...I always get that. When I ask why, I always either get "Well, you all normally like that sort of stuff" or the more blatant "usually black people do". Or they get shocked when I don't understand today's slang which, honestly, is fucking dreadful anyway.

[Rummy]

On 18/09/2020 at 8:12 AM, Rummy said:

Whether it's smart or not deliberately conflating violence into these issues(and I don't know these fighters) - it seems one UFC fighter is bringing the #BLM to the Octagon;

 

Not seen the event/fight probs won't catch it. But;

Spoiler

Woodley apparently went down to a TKO rib injury around 1.20 into 5th and final round. Not followed or looked at aftermath yet - will be curious to see if the race issues were just fight hyping more serious or a mix of both

 

[Rummy]

7 hours ago, Beast said:

I remember watching this a while back and thought it was disgusting then. It annoys me that cunts like this exist, it truly does. How fucking entitled and thuggish they are just makes my piss boil. 

I've never understood this in the first place though. Why are people so bothered about skin colour? I'm being serious. It's pigmentation. I mean, will they avoid the sun in case they get a tan and be mistaken to have brown skin? I honestly get truly depressed when I see shit like this and it kind of triggers me. I don't actually mean trigger as in crying but as in fucking angry. The worst part of it is it's happening more and more now. 2020, so far, has been truly awful for racism. 

The thing that pisses me off is when I put on some rock music and they always say "I would've thought you'd like grime or rap"...I always get that. When I ask why, I always either get "Well, you all normally like that sort of stuff" or the more blatant "usually black people do". Or they get shocked when I don't understand today's slang which, honestly, is fucking dreadful anyway.

Aye sorry. Ofc I hope its somewhat implied this thread will have content of a heavy nature(and I don't do trigger warnings much soz) but I'm with you. I think being not only west indian but Guyanese I've always been rather different/unique/slightly lonely island over my life growing without much of 'my own tribe' - again I kinda throw back to the Indians who recognise my heritage but drop/change tone and approach when they find I'm not recent mainland in heritage.

As for music etc. I was 'in' with a pretty alt crowd but not really for the music. Thursday night 'rock nights' were a little commune of my ends for quite a few years - the legacy was pretty fairly all akin to the people themselves around the area and a few brave folks putting the events on for the crowd at the time - and ofc it worked well for the local pubs and establishments. I knew a fair few folks across the board(just kinda how I am) so was also lowkey involved in helping for bands and crowds when they were peeps I knew too(cos they take door money cuts so a good draw is good for them etc.)

Given that - and its just a reflection for my ends - the 'brown' presence at such things was still fairly minimal. Now I didn't give too much of many shits for the music(see even still a 16 year old me with a walkman in my blazer pocket packed with Bob Marley or Pato Banton or just a weird old medly of those kinda 90s reggae pop tracks etc) but I'm all about the people and so I was always about there. It was curiously kinda the opposite to you - I'm in a 'tribe' or 'scene' unified by a musical taste and I don't particularly even care for it 😂

That kinda got me too. People being confused why I was there if I wasn't big into the music - as if the labels and tastes of musics should be the boundaries that should unite or divide us; more so than...uh...humanity and liking people's characters?

 

(credit tho when diff promos died others came up a three local boys took up a pretty successful 'rock night' run for a few years at local venues with local bands etcetc. and one was brown one white and one...i dunno, never asked, but a mix with a lighter side look to him - but again that might just be metropolitan nature of london/my se ends)

[Rummy]

Gonna be a total old man but I've been laid up at my parents for the past week and my mum is a bit of an LBC fan via J-O'B and also Maajid Nawaaz. The last hour today was about the idea of taking the 'E' out of the OBE MBE etcetc because of the ills of the 'Empire' and whether this should be done? One guy who rang in was honestly so in affinity and agreement with myself you would almost believe it was me.

https://www.globalplayer.com/catchup/lbc/uk/b8FPiKG/

https://vocaroo.com/1d0OoccNA8J1

[Will]

Nice! funnily I've started listening to some of the clips from these shows as they come up as recommendations via YouTube. Really quite shocking how insane some people are that call in, glad you weren't one of that group.

I agree with your general point completely, but I do think they should scrap the "empire" part of the titles. We don't have an empire anymore and I think people need to move on from the notion that we do, that it makes us special and that we can hold it as something of a good thing. I think having these honours is great, and they mean a lot to a lot of people, like you say let's be proud of the country and what people do within it, but times change and things need to move on. It doesn't take away from it in any way but does show we're making an effort to move on and be better people.

Going to give the whole hour a listen to now, as I think it's a really interesting topic.

Maybe not your thing @Rummy, but did you have any opinion on the controversy surrounding the last night of the proms use of certain music? Feel like it's kind of similar to this.

[Will]

The caller after you had a good idea to reform it:

• CC - Contributor to the Community
• CS - Contributor to Society
• CN - Contributor to the Nation

The top two would be voted on and the Nation level would be those people who sit in the House of Lords (or whatever new name you might give it). I quite like this concept, think it would work rather well.

[Rummy]

3 hours ago, Will said:

Nice! funnily I've started listening to some of the clips from these shows as they come up as recommendations via YouTube. Really quite shocking how insane some people are that call in, glad you weren't one of that group.

I agree with your general point completely, but I do think they should scrap the "empire" part of the titles. We don't have an empire anymore and I think people need to move on from the notion that we do, that it makes us special and that we can hold it as something of a good thing. I think having these honours is great, and they mean a lot to a lot of people, like you say let's be proud of the country and what people do within it, but times change and things need to move on. It doesn't take away from it in any way but does show we're making an effort to move on and be better people.

Going to give the whole hour a listen to now, as I think it's a really interesting topic.

Maybe not your thing @Rummy, but did you have any opinion on the controversy surrounding the last night of the proms use of certain music? Feel like it's kind of similar to this.

Haha yeah some callers are absolute mentalists. JOB and Maj are great hosts(i genuinely only pay attention if/when my friends or my mum tell me). Mum says JoB will only ever let Maajid sit in for him if he's off too(for ref btw I had to read 'Face' by Benjamin Zephaniah in school but he is also an amazingly smart and talented orator - VERY deserving of honours).

Next - its weird calling in(and the cut is diff to the reality; but de minimis). Also less than a minute before I was on my dad returned with my brother and I swear to God I was so scared he would walk into the dining room I was sitting in and rip a live fart of something on LBC and kill all my credibility I literally body-barricaded the room/door 🤣

 

 

Without getting hard into the first part again I wouldn't want to kill 'Empire' because I am a man as I said to Maajid - I have had to study to regain my stoleb culture. I do not want tit for tat erasure. The British for whatever they are or may be or may have been(and in fact because of this, because Knowledge is Power) sit upon a lot of riches of knowledge and tradition. This includes symbology and ideas and institutions associated very much with ideas of OBEs MBEs etc(and just take me on this unless I can get a more seeing man than me in this thread - these are not exclusively British things they are modelled on what they stole and even more ancient ideas of 'Order' and may even serve a positive purpose in ways of lineage). I can go into this specifically and generally both but it gets very...subjective? As I said to Maajid I really have had to study very many things(and I do, as some here may already know - my breadth and depth is beyond many people I tend to speak and converse with generally). To truly explain me would need a whole biography though - that's how complex it is and I only have that complexity due to my skin and heritage. Just...don't be arrogant enough to believe that this whole world was 'white-built' just because 'whites' conquered the 'power structures'.

I reffed Dave's "Black";

"Black is...telling us we used to be Barbaric we had actual Queens....Studying for ages, appreciatin' the chance you got 'Cause black is in your blood, and you ain't even got the heart to stop....Black is strugglin' to find your history or trace the shit, You don't know the truth about your race 'cause they erasin' it...And standin' by your children when you haven't proven karma wrong...Black is my Ghanaian**** brother readin' into scriptures Doin' research on his lineage, findin' out that he's Egyptian"

Trust me brother - I can preach to the Heavens and to the Hells; but sometimes people mistake my restraint for ignorance or weakness over the ideas of mercy and grace - and I can tell you some deepers bits of analysis I could make of Maajid too and his reponses to me(especially the heritage question) that probably glossed much past most - tho that's more about him than anything generally. He's a very good skeptic(dont @ me I learnt my parapsych module under THE Prof. Chris French I know skeptics and can teach a thing or two too :p)

 

As for the proms? Hmm. Not not my thing at all @Will. However if the above didn't already imply - yes I very much followed it. A load of fluff and bluster over nothing. Left hand distractions. Find me and point me to an actual real person who cared and then give me the totals of actual real persons who cared. I have a most perfect quote for it you may have already seen around it - but if not I think it's an apt sign off to this post(dont worry tho - I am still well here for this convo )

Quote

The Land of Hope and Glory - by Edward Elgar;

"Alice and I went to the Coliseum tonight and they played Land Of Hope And Glory not once, but twice; the whole audience joined in. I could not. I regret very profoundly how this song has become an anthem to war."

 

Edward Elgar 11 November 1918

***got a fee Ghanain brothers and sisters. I am NOT ghanain tho. Ghana is NOT Guyana  - despite what all the western folks insist to me after insisting on asking where I am from from 

[Rummy]

3 hours ago, Will said:

The caller after you had a good idea to reform it:

• CC - Contributor to the Community
• CS - Contributor to Society
• CN - Contributor to the Nation

The top two would be voted on and the Nation level would be those people who sit in the House of Lords (or whatever new name you might give it). I quite like this concept, think it would work rather well.

Why must we apply reform to old ideas in attempts to arrange history though? Why can we not do the work to move forward and enrich the words and terms themselves again? Do WE not have a responsibility to uphold legacies?

Iirc there was a caller David before me(again calling in is weird cos you arent even fully engaged due to the distraction of engaging which is completely counterproductive) who did suggest changing the 'e' to 'Excellence' which I'd actually be far more down with. I think though these are far more ancient legacies than we are giving them worth for and we need to be careful with them and changing too hard original forms/symbology.

Also re: Land of Hope and Glory you see my quote above. I have explained already I am actually quite a martial man - in mind body spirit and soul. I can tell you many things about war and conflict but I shant - my surname Singh has an ancient connection just the same to Simba of the Lion King and it means Lion too - it is a mark of belonging to the ancient Indic Varna of the Kshatriya - I will not preach her but those who wish to look further can do so.

 

Tell me this with the above last point - why are there Three Lions on your English native pride? Can you show me the history or the evidence of the time that Lions were ever even present upon this geographical piece of land we now call Britain? If no - then do tell me please. Why is my namesake a symbol of YOUR national pride when you have never even truly experienced it?

 

[Will]

2 hours ago, Rummy said:

Without getting hard into the first part again I wouldn't want to kill 'Empire' because I am a man as I said to Maajid - I have had to study to regain my stoleb culture. I do not want tit for tat erasure. The British for whatever they are or may be or may have been(and in fact because of this, because Knowledge is Power) sit upon a lot of riches of knowledge and tradition. This includes symbology and ideas and institutions associated very much with ideas of OBEs MBEs etc

I don't think this counts as tit-for-tat erasure, nobody is saying we should forget the past, just that there might be better ways to move forward into the future. Absolutely we should keep the traditions and symbols where is makes sense to do so, but we can pick and choose how and when we use it. Personally I'm of the opinion we should continue with the good and the positive, and leave the rest for the history books.

2 hours ago, Rummy said:

As for the proms? Hmm. Not not my thing at all @Will. However if the above didn't already imply - yes I very much followed it. A load of fluff and bluster over nothing. Left hand distractions. Find me and point me to an actual real person who cared and then give me the totals of actual real persons who cared. I have a most perfect quote for it you may have already seen around it - but if not I think it's an apt sign off to this post(dont worry tho - I am still well here for this convo )

I found it quite interesting, and yeah I had seen that quote before. For me it's not about whether people care or not about the particular item, it's the attitude that people take to it. It seems all that discussion did was create outrage on both sides. Outrage because your traditions are under attack, or outrage because your heritage is under attack, no middle ground and nobody wants to listen to the other side. I kind of see it in the same way as the other talk, make some positive changes and let's move to the future without the bad side of it all.

2 hours ago, Rummy said:

Why must we apply reform to old ideas in attempts to arrange history though? Why can we not do the work to move forward and enrich the words and terms themselves again? Do WE not have a responsibility to uphold legacies?

We do, but we don't have to be chained to it. Like I said, I don't think it's about changing history, it's about the path we're on to the future.

2 hours ago, Rummy said:

Iirc there was a caller David before me(again calling in is weird cos you arent even fully engaged due to the distraction of engaging which is completely counterproductive) who did suggest changing the 'e' to 'Excellence' which I'd actually be far more down with. I think though these are far more ancient legacies than we are giving them worth for and we need to be careful with them and changing too hard original forms/symbology.

I'd be down for this too, I don't think the specifics of how it eventually changes are important, it's the act of moving on from the bad and maintaining the good that's important.

2 hours ago, Rummy said:

Tell me this with the above last point - why are there Three Lions on your English native pride? Can you show me the history or the evidence of the time that Lions were ever even present upon this geographical piece of land we now call Britain? If no - then do tell me please. Why is my namesake a symbol of YOUR national pride when you have never even truly experienced it?

The Three Lions are hundreds of years old and I really don't have a clue how the original individual crests came to be lions or what contact people back then had with them. My (very) limited understanding is that they may have originally been intended as European leopards and only later become lions. I don't particularly see the relevance though, do the three lions cause controversy or anything like that?

[Rummy]

46 minutes ago, Will said:

I don't think this counts as tit-for-tat erasure, nobody is saying we should forget the past, just that there might be better ways to move forward into the future. Absolutely we should keep the traditions and symbols where is makes sense to do so, but we can pick and choose how and when we use it. Personally I'm of the opinion we should continue with the good and the positive, and leave the rest for the history books.

Oh yeah I wasn't saying that IS waht it is - saying I don't want that to be what it is. You change the name - but it isnt just a name is it? There's ceremony. The queen is involved. There's a whole medal/symbol that is centuries years old. Non-human idols and symbols. If a picture if worth a thousand words - how powerful or strong is a symbol? Should we be wary of erasing these ideas and symbolic measures that have evolved over time to represent old Truths?

Quote

I found it quite interesting, and yeah I had seen that quote before. For me it's not about whether people care or not about the particular item, it's the attitude that people take to it. It seems all that discussion did was create outrage on both sides. Outrage because your traditions are under attack, or outrage because your heritage is under attack, no middle ground and nobody wants to listen to the other side. I kind of see it in the same way as the other talk, make some positive changes and let's move to the future without the bad side of it all.

We do, but we don't have to be chained to it. Like I said, I don't think it's about changing history, it's about the path we're on to the future.

I'd be down for this too, I don't think the specifics of how it eventually changes are important, it's the act of moving on from the bad and maintaining the good that's important.

The Three Lions are hundreds of years old and I really don't have a clue how the original individual crests came to be lions or what contact people back then had with them. My (very) limited understanding is that they may have originally been intended as European leopards and only later become lions. I don't particularly see the relevance though, do the three lions cause controversy or anything like that?

Forget that 'discussion'. There is a LOT of concerted effort at creating disinformation and false controversy at the moment - another reason why we need to be wary smart intelligent and constantly educate ourselves to a point of Wisdom(I'm being lofty but it's a kinda base from the DIKW paradigm).

IF the path to the future is not about changing or erasing history - why change it? Literally? Why change it? IS there shame? Are you a toddler who knows they were meant to go to the toilet but shat in the corner cos they couldn't hold it and hid it in shame? Why deny and change? Why not let it stand to the evidence of time? Obfuscation is not something I often agree with in general purposes - but it's a lot of the method of the world atm imo.

Excellence idea - I like it because it keeps a lot of traditonal symbology intact.

Hundreds of years old is fine - but Lions as far as I know only exist on the African continent now. Not even upon the Asian continent from which I draw my Yogas. My point IS - why if they never existed geographically upon this landmass in the last 'hundreds of years' are they a symbol for this landmass? Can you ever show me WHEN lions existed natively here - and if not then you must have to acknowledge that your very own symbology heritages and motifs are not even yours and taken from another geopolitical culture or time. Time and Space are laws of physics, and I don't even know when the landmass of 'the UK' was even still attached to that such that Lions would have been present for the currently surviving culture to have observred and preserved as a symbol of something with meaning. Call it a European Leopard if you like but how does that become a Lion when a leopard cannot change its spots? We don't sing 'three leopards on a shirt' do we? Plus if we got it wrong and we want to correct things why are we still calling them Lions and not Leopards?

 

My issue isn't about it causing controversy - not everything has to to be relevant or worthy of discussion(and a problem now is people only want to seem to discuss things particularly as a point of outrage and ego) - my point is that Britain utilises a motif it barely even considers the relevance or lineage of; yet wants to also try and stand proud of the ideas and leagacy of Empires - as if that idea even belongs to them with exclusively rights. IF you steal from another people - or take/copy even - at least have the decency to acknowledge it. Imho.

 

(...tep.)

[bob]

Mate, the national animal of Scotland is the fucking unicorn, so I don't think we have to worry about lions not being from England.

[Rummy]

49 minutes ago, bob said:

Mate, the national animal of Scotland is the fucking unicorn, so I don't think we have to worry about lions not being from England.

I would take it - but Richard didn't calm himself the Unicornheart(tho tbh in battle I'd be well happy to get stabby stabby stabby with the horny horny bit)

[Will]

Honestly, @Rummy, I’m not even sure I understand what points you’re making with a lot of this stuff. I like having this conversation with you but I think we’ll just keep bouncing back the same stuff at each other if I go into what you’re saying directly.

Do you really think that changing the name of our stately awards is akin to erasing history? As far as I can tell nobody is suggesting we should forget the past, just that the naming of them might not be fully appropriate as things stand. Even if you take ignore any offense that could be caused, it is kind of weird to have “x of the British Empire” when there isn’t a British Empire anymore. I’d see it like pulling down the statues of slavers, we don’t have to forget it - it just doesn’t belong as part of public ceremony anymore.

Your point with the Lions is what exactly? That because we have a coat of arms from 800 years ago that features animals that aren’t native to the country we can’t move on with anything else? I don’t get how it’s relevant to this discussion at all.

[Rummy]

Oh. I don't neccessarily have an actual 'end' point - so I can see why that's an issue. I don't HAVE the answer to the question - I just like it as a question and pose it for the sake. I find it peculiar to consider the utilisation of a motif which...when you try to analyse its difficult(exactly as you're saying) to determine how it ends up here? Again tho for me this is more because my surname is Singh - akin to how the Sikh males all take it for their middle name because of its relation to Lion/Ruler/Governor akin to the Varna caste system. I did try to say its complex! I was a bit surprised when(a much older me) came to find out Simba as the name from Lion King despite as being as obvious as it was was akin to Singh as my surname. I literally just as a kid did not know or realise how much old cultures shared and flowed together - and in a topic about racism where cultural differences seem to divide us I'm looking more to consider what we share. Ideas cultures symbols motifs etc. I don't believe we were ALWAYS divided and I'd like to hope we won't always be. Unfortunately atm and probs due to perspective of being here - I don't/haven't got examples of similar sort of peculiarities in another culture to compare it to(say...I dunno...some really British animal that doesnt exist on another landmass becoming a national animal/motif? What if china or india has 3 badgers on their flag, assuming they never had badgers on their land? I genuinely dont know if badgers exist in those countries now tho or ever did).

 

Etymologically I was just trying to kinda trace and show its history - I enjoy also studying how Buddhism supposedly travelled down the Silk Road from India and Hindu/Indus river links to develop and evolve into Buddhism - so it isn't neccesarily a question with an end point either of us can answer - and I like to hear speculation for that! lf we are using something in our identity that we don't readily own/have to hand - why? Where did it come from? Is it not an indicator or some shared history or union rather than division? I absolutely understand that it is a stumping question - its why I like it!

 

As for the name - yes I think its actually worse than pulling down a statue. A statue to one person is a bit idolistic to that person - but a medal of an empire isn't quite so(even tho its often 'tied' to the regent and crown of the time) - its less ... hmm. All I can draw as a word is idolistic? As for the idea of not having an 'empire' any more(and the caller before me on LBC said very much the same) - is that a relative point just because it is smaller now than it once was? Or because we have less dominion or power over the rest of the world?

 

How 'big' does an empire have to be to be an empire - and why can't or "don't" we have one anymore? I really don't take much issue with the ideas or language - I actually think keeping the traditions of it reflect the history better. I guess personally on the topic I just think behaviour changes are needed on the whole because they're more fundamental bottom-up things rather than some commitee renaming or changing the 'E' in an term like OBE MBE which feels more top down and probably won't actually reach the people who are most affected at the bottom levels by all these issues? I guess maybe that's it at a crux for what it is now - top down approaches just don't/won't work or last?

Again this is not a simlpe topic. It has spanned lifetimes and generations. I guess sometimes I look at it like that too scale/scopewise. I don't have the answers or full solutions tho - if I did I'd ideally be running the world!

To sign that off and break a loop of us going back and forth as you rightfully say - its not exactly totally topic relevant but I always enjoy this half silly video of the 'history of the world'. Mostly because it humbles me into thinking what we are doing now is so small a drop in a massive ocean of time - are we even making a difference?? If not then how?

We probably have far more in common than that which divides us - but we need to leave history intact whatever it was in order to know that. I guess there us nothing to suggest a rename would erase that - but that's a whole other topic and longevity and why things last(ie why do some empires survive qhy do others not - but this getting into the macro over the micro of racial divisions).

[sumo73]

Three lions goes back to the 12 century. The First lion came from King Henry I who was known as the lion king of England and he had this on his standard after taking power in 1100 AD/CE. The king married Adeliza of Louvain whose father had a lion on his shield so Henry added a second lion. In 1154, King Henry II married Eleanor of Aquitaine who also had a lion on her family crest so the king added the third lion.

Lastly, evidence was dug up possibly when building Trafalgar Square in London of the bones of lions, hippos, elephants and bears.

 

Edited September 21, 2020 by sumo73

[Rummy]

Giving a wee bump having seen this story come up today - interest if any folks have PoVs to offer? I have a few myself but I'll explain a bit later why I'm holding off.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/family-of-man-who-died-in-custody-condemn-disproportionate-use-of-restraints-b921150.html

Kevin Clarke.

[Rummy]

Forget my last post(alol) but here's what I want EVERYONE to be aware of - coming in Nov to BBC and also Amazon Prime - The Small Axe Anthology.

"If you are a big big Tree....we are a Small Axe....

(Sharp and Ready!)

Sharpened to cut you down...Ready to Cut you Down. (-personal remix of unexmployment benefits form 40 and the prince of reggae hisself bob marley)

 

 

 

 

 

Obvs my leanings are West Indian buy they are London too. If you know about Notting Hill but you don't know about the Mangrove or indeed the Mangrove Nine and the first time in recent history the British Judiciary actively called and ackonwleged the Police as racist acting with racial hatred(a statement they tried rather hard to get retracted and failed) or even that 2 of the Mangrove Nine forewent formal legal and represented themselves then you really really rwally need to be there for the first film of this anthology. I haven't seen it yet and I am SO excited for when it comes because tbh not just cast alone but Steve McQueen has rarely if ever failed to impress me.

 

Srsly. 15th November. BBC. Put it in your calendars.

 

[Rummy]

On 10/10/2020 at 4:01 PM, Rummy said:

Giving a wee bump having seen this story come up today - interest if any folks have PoVs to offer? I have a few myself but I'll explain a bit later why I'm holding off.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/family-of-man-who-died-in-custody-condemn-disproportionate-use-of-restraints-b921150.html

Kevin Clarke.

Following on a bit from this came across this via something probs algorithms on FB the other day and its REALLY worth a read for all those who have been interested in this whole topic so far - because it will again potentially show many a face of this world that you never realised you do not see;

 

https://www.menshealth.com/uk/mental-strength/a34415128/black-minds-matter/

And yes. You do recognise David Harewood there on the left.

[Sheikah]

On the subject of institutional racism, it was alarming to see how low the percentage of over 70s accepting the vaccine was for some groups:

• White - 91%
• Pakistani - 74%
• Bangladeshi - 73%
• Black Caribbean - 69%
• Black African - 59%

This is basically what happens when there is a history of mistreatment and underrepresentation in clinical trials, leading to lack of trust.

[Rummy]

On 30/03/2021 at 12:26 PM, Sheikah said:

On the subject of institutional racism, it was alarming to see how low the percentage of over 70s accepting the vaccine was for some groups:

• White - 91%
• Pakistani - 74%
• Bangladeshi - 73%
• Black Caribbean - 69%
• Black African - 59%

This is basically what happens when there is a history of mistreatment and underrepresentation in clinical trials, leading to lack of trust.

Have you got anymore background data into this? Any potential ideas as to causes and why etc?

Not related to covid per se and not quite racism itself but I was trying to explain a little bit to my mate just in passing the other dag about bias in healthcare - a major main basic one being women not always getting addressed/diagnosed as much as men despite equitable symptomatic presentations etc. Then how it's kinda echoed in any minority group and exacerbated between - ie black women getting less despite equala symptom presentation etc.

[Jonnas]

I've seen videos about the subject before. About historical discrimination in medicine, I mean:

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

Both of these are US-centric, but I believe a lot of it applies to other countries as well. The basic gist of it is that doctors discriminate against minority patients in a variety of ways (dismissal of symptoms, erroneous assumptions, generally unpleasant behaviour, etc.), which leads to an increasing distrust from said minorities in the entire health system. Something that contributed to this situation is that, for a long time, even medical research itself was racist ("Blacks feel less pain" being the most notable aspect of this, but John Oliver's piece brings some appalling sexist examples as well).

While I don't know how much of this applies to the UK, it's easy to assume similar underlying reasons. In order to trust health care services, you need to trust "the system", and that won't happen if minorities don't feel included enough in society.