Foreign languages

[dan-likes-trees]

Decided I want to resume learning French, which I was doing alright at last year, until i stalled and have since forgotten alot of it.

 

Being N-Europe there's obvs lots of people on here who speak more than one language fluently.

 

Any tips on learning? Obvsiously living in a place is the best way but aside from that? Podcasts? Exercise books? Classes?

[Frank]

Podcasts and, preferably, movies with subtitles. I think movies are the best given that you get really good aural practice (which I find the most difficult) but in a very entertaining way. Plus, you get to see how grammatically-correct sentences should look. That's what I think.

 

I'm learning French, German and Italian at the moment and it is such a beautiful thing to learn any new language. You feel brand new. Like, I take on a different persona (subconsciously :p) when I speak French, for example. Definitely keep it up! It's strange -- I feel you learn much more than just the language while studying. I can't define it.

 

*Back on topic!* I'd get really solid at being able to hear a language 1st. Just like how we learn our vernacular. It's so easy to download free global radio stations. Do some every day, like 10 minutes or so. I find exercise books are pretty average, they're good to start off but they'd never teach slang terms etc. which is essential if you want to speak a language "properly".

 

Good Luck

[Jonnas]

Films with foreign subtitles (and vice-versa) are good, yes.

Actually, anything that allows you to keep in touch with the language on a somewhat regular basis is good (books, videogames, movies, etc.), which is why classes where you regularly speak/hear the foreign language are so effective, you can even get your teacher to talk about those countries' culture.

 

I'd say the most important thing is trying to think to yourself in the language you're learning. Try to adopt that mindset, and using the language will start to become second-nature to you.

 

As for myself, I can speak Portuguese, Spanish and English, some French and currently learning German (Glaub mir, es ist eine schwere Sprache). I suppose German is the only one I've started learning after reaching adulthood, though.

Edited December 4, 2011 by Jonnas

[Will]

I'm currently learning Japanese, the key for me is constantly using it and practicing as much as possible. Work has been crazy lately so I'm not going to classes until January. Reading has been interested but I'm certainly getting there. Aiming to be able to read without much difficulty by the time lessons start. It really helps that there are a lot of people speaking Japanese at work, without that I think I'd be finding it super hard.

[Supergrunch]

Aiming to be able to read without much difficulty by the time lessons start..

Kana, sure. Kanji... nope. Unfortunately the Japanese writing system isn't phonemic so if you learn to read it fluently, it'll almost definitely be after you've mastered the spoken language.

 

But yeah, I guess you mean learning the kana plus a load of basic kanji, in which case, cool.

 

As for general language-learning advice, mine is: alongside everything else, make sure you learn the grammar of the language, explicitly. Some Europeans might think this is odd advice, but in England (and the UK generally?) there is so little focus on grammar at school that some people may not realsie how fundamental this is to "getting" a language.

Edited December 4, 2011 by Supergrunch

[Will]

Oh for sure, Kanji is going to take a long long time to get a good grasp of. Currently we're only using Hiragana and Katakana in lessons, the first of which I have completely got and probably about 50% of the second - just need to really lock both down.

 

Definitely a good point on the grammar, I'm terrible at English grammar and it really shows with the learning of others. I find learning languages super super hard, but I'll carry on trying.

[Paj!]

I hate that I know no other languages. So many people at uni with me can speak at least 2.

 

I wasn't very good at them in school at all (C at GCSE French woop) but I still wish I'd somehow...been decent/done a language anyway. There's so little emphasis on language learning here as opposed to like...anywhere else in the universe. It must be something to do with the teaching as well as me just being bad. Like if it was taught differently I wonder if I would've been better at French/more bothered? Maybe not.

 

But yeah, living with an Italian who speaks english fluently, a dutchman who speaks english fluently (and effectively French too) makes me annoyed I don't know anything. I want to, in reaction, become fluent in Scottish Gaelic, just to have something as my own. Even though I could speak to no one I know with it.

[Wesley]

I wouldn't bother.

 

English is the best anyway.

[The fish]

I can speak a moderate amount of German, and, at a push, "tourist" levels of French, Czech, Turkish and Italian.

 

Foreign films with English subtitles and English films with foreign subs/dubs can help - hearing the language used in context work wonders. You'd be surprised what you can learn from simply exposing yourself to the language. I, for example, learned the German for where (wo) from the original Call of Duty, a year or so before I was taught it in school.

[EddieColeslaw]

I just wrote a big post that disappeared somehow

 

Immersion is key. Watch movies/shows, read books, newspapers, blogs, sites, listen to music and podcasts, find a native speaker. Learn and try to experience the cultures too. Having a really big interest in a language is the best, it really accelerates learning. It's kind of stupid how I learned Irish for...13 years and promptly forgot it as soon as I left school (loooool hated it), but learned how to read Korean in like, a day.

 

Try sites like eduFire, I've heard good things about it. Smart.fm (now iKnow) used to be really good, but it charges now. Find sites with good notes and audio clips, make a list and learning plan/timetable, be motivated

Edited December 4, 2011 by EddieColeslaw

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

I speak Danish and English fluently, and I know some German as well, though my vocabulary is lacking. I've studied Latin and Ancient Greek and gymnasium for three years, and at the moment I've almost finished my first semester of studying those languages at university.

[Eenuh]

Yeah the best way to learn a language really is to just immerse yourself into it. Try to use/listen to it as much as possible, through books, internet, radio, films etc. Of course being able to speak it with someone is the best thing to do, but that's not always possible.

 

And like Supergrunch said, grammar is very important. I've been trying to teach some Dutch grammar to Jim, but so far it's not really paid off yet heh.

 

I learned most of my English through videogames and television, way before I learned any English in school. So it helps a lot to use sources like these. And use it regularly or you'll simply forget everything again.

 

My French for example is horrible, even though I had it in school for 8 years... But I've not used it since so it's all gone. Well I still understand most of it, but I can't write or speak it anymore myself. Same with Latin which I did for 6 years. As soon as you stop using it, it'll start fading away. =(

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

I learned most of my English through videogames and television, way before I learned any English in school. So it helps a lot to use sources like these. And use it regularly or you'll simply forget everything again.

 

Yeah, it was exactly the same for me. Especially video games gave me an amazing head start.

[Oxigen_Waste]

Kana, sure. Kanji... nope. Unfortunately the Japanese writing system isn't phonemic so if you learn to read it fluently, it'll almost definitely be after you've mastered the spoken language.

 

But yeah, I guess you mean learning the kana plus a load of basic kanji, in which case, cool.

 

As for general language-learning advice, mine is: alongside everything else, make sure you learn the grammar of the language, explicitly. Some Europeans might think this is odd advice, but in England (and the UK generally?) there is so little focus on grammar at school that some people may not realsie how fundamental this is to "getting" a language.

 

This is why I refuse to learn the chinese written alphabet... who the fuck makes a strictly non-phonetic alphabet??? To me, it's just useless.

[Diageo]

Can someone please correct the thread title, I'm getting a headache here.

[Sméagol]

I wanted to make some joke about the title, but I’m sure at least 10 people before me refrained from doing so.. So never mind.

 

A lot of good advice has been given already.

 

- I personally prefer classical courses. I think these are the most practical and best way to start a new language, apart from going to the regarding country itself (for non-holiday reasons).

 

- Indeed, grammar is important. Can’t imagine learning a new language by repeating various typical holiday sentences. I want to know how to construct sentences.

 

- Very important: keep up with the language apart from your course. Make sure you’re regularly exposed to it. I tried Spanish a while back, but it doesn’t really stick because I didn’t “surround” myself with Spanish. The occasional Spanish film, but that was it. Films are good, but depending on how busy you are, they can take up a lot of time. I’m not sure if one film a week is good enough.. Magazines/newspapers, and perhaps the occasional TV would be good. Arte is a good TV channel, but they also have a lot of dubbed series, and I personally hate dubbing. If you’re into anime, I hope you can receive Kaze, they have dubbed and subbed anime. For French in particular, keep in mind French rarely subtitle their DVD’s or Blu-rays in other languages (unlike Spanish films for example). Some may regard that as better, but I personally would like to have both subtitles in a language I know, and captions (for the hearing impaired) in the original language, if I want to learn a language (so you can focus on either the spoken or written language). Anyway, France has a rich cinema history, if you have an arthouse nearby, you should have a steady stream of new French films coming your way. That said, you’ll have to go to Amazon.fr or Fnac.fr to get the French blockbusters.

 

- Some European countries / languages (perhaps most of them) have some organisation which promotes their languages, or at the very least arrange exams which will get you a widely recognised certificate if you pass. For French, this is the Alliance Française. Look for a location near you at the UK site: http://www.alliancefrancaise.org.uk/ Or go to Paris! http://www.alliancefr.org/en/

That’s the place where I’d look first, and in fact, I’ve requested a brochure myself a few days ago. Most of these organisations adhere to [CEFR], so you can compare your level of knowledge of different languages.

 

Anyway, like I said, I was thinking of taking up a French course myself. In addition, I intend to take up German and even English as well. Like there is the Alliance Française for French, you have the Goethe Institut for German, and perhaps not familiar to you “natives”, Cambridge/The British Council for English. I’ve done Spanish in the past, but like I said, it didn’t really stick (yet), but I fully intend to take that up again in the future. And there are various other languages I’m interested in. I’m doing French and German because they’re immediately useful to me (gets asked a lot in job requirements), and unlike Spanish, I should be able to pick them up more easily since I’ve had French and German classes for years in highschool. I’m doing in English because, although I’m pretty confident in my English, I’d love to have some sort of “official” proof of my abilities.

[Supergrunch]

Oh for sure' date=' Kanji is going to take a long long time to get a good grasp of. Currently we're only using Hiragana and Katakana in lessons, the first of which I have completely got and probably about 50% of the second - just need to really lock both down.[/quote']

Sounds like a good start to me - hiragana is inevitably easier to learn than katakana because it comes up so much more frequently, but it helps that both systems are (nearly) identical, so the hiragana/katakana distinction is somehwhat similar to the difference between upper and lower case in English (though from a usage perspective, katakana is more like italics).

Definitely a good point on the grammar' date=' I'm terrible at English grammar and it really shows with the learning of others. I find learning languages super super hard, but I'll carry on trying.[/quote']

There's an important distinction to make here between learning grammar and analysing grammar. As a native speaker of English, you already have a perfect grasp of English grammar, but without being taught how to analyse English grammar, you won't know why some sentences are right and others are wrong - you'll just know they are. For instance, any native speaker knows that in "John is eager to please," John is doing the pleasing, but in "John is easy to please," John is being pleased, but without analysing your grammar, it's pretty much impossible to say why this is. However, analysis of your own grammar doesn't seem to be important unless you're a linguist, but as soon as you learn a foreign language, you don't know the grammar at all, and all of a sudden it's incredibly helpful to apply the insights you've learnt form analysing your own grammar. Unfortunately, in England for the most part you're neither taught to analyse the grammar of your own language, nor the grammar of foreign languages, so language learning is all a bit of a mess. The only exception to this is Latin, where (a somewhat old-fashioned) grammar is formally taught, but then hardly anyone does Latin at school these days.

 

(note also that even if your dialect isn't the same as what you might think of as "proper" English, it still has a grammar, just as every variety of English does)

It's kind of stupid how I learned Irish for...13 years and promptly forgot it as soon as I left school (loooool hated it), but learned how to read Korean in like, a day.

This is partly because (in stark contrast to Japanese), Korean has one of the most perfect writing systems ever, so it's very easy to learn.

This is why I refuse to learn the chinese written alphabet... who the fuck makes a strictly non-phonetic alphabet??? To me, it's just useless.

It is fairly unfortunate, although strictly speaking, it's not an alphabet at all. And no alphabets are phonetic (apart form the International Phonetic Alphabet, used for scientific purposes), as alphabets represent the distinctive units of speech, rather than the actual sounds that are produced. Although as any writer of English will know, in many alphabets, this representation is far from exact.

Can someone please correct the thread title, I'm getting a headache here.

Done. Although I hadn't noticed until you pointed it out, thanks to my chunking strategy.

[Diageo]

Haha, well I noticed straight away. Maybe that's why I read so slow.

[dan-likes-trees]

Embarrassing for me, the i before e except after c rule has clearly let me down.

 

Anyway top tips all round, lovely stuff all.

[Jimbob]

I learned some Polish and Lithuanian just from my work on the phones. Not a lot, and i certainly can't write it.

 

If you listen to the language, those Rosetta stone tapes work well. Interactive and they help you memorise phrases that can be used in day-to-day life. I suppose it helps if you can listen to interpretors as well.

[Fierce_LiNk]

I love languages. It's beautiful how the World is made up of so many countries, many with their own individual language.

 

I wish I had more time to properly learn Dutch. There doesn't seem to be time to sit down and learn it properly. If I was 10 years younger, it would be so much easier. Sucks being old. Grumble grumble.

 

Trying to also re-learn Spanish. A kid in school is teaching me, aha.

 

My Dad (mainly) can speak Urdu and Punjabi, but I haven't studied those languages for a long time. It's very true that when you don't use those languages, you gradually lose the ability to use it. Also studied French in school, and Welsh, and I could read Arabic but not translate it well.

 

I do feel bad that English is the only one that I really know well, and even then, I abuse it badly. Baaaadly.

 

Mega-jealous that Ine can speak other languages.

[EEVILMURRAY]

Pretty much every time I go abroad on holiday I come back intending to learn their language - German, Spanish, American (those crazy cats) but soon the novelty wears off.

 

I've never fisted animé enough to want to learn Japanese. Plus it'll probably become Engrish soon.

[The fish]

I've never fisted animé enough to want to learn Japanese. Plus it'll probably become Engrish soon.

 

I'm pretty sure you mean tentacled...

[Diageo]

Embarrassing for me, the i before e except after c rule has clearly let me down.

 

Anyway top tips all round, lovely stuff all.

 

I'm pretty sure there are more words with e before i than the other way around.

[Supergrunch]

I'm pretty sure there are more words with e before i than the other way around.

This is a good example of something that you couldn't possibly know without researching, so I did a quick and dirty check.

 

I searched the headwords of the Oxford English Dictionary for the following strings (where * is a wildcard ranging over strings of any length, including empty strings):

 

*ie* = 5500 matches.

*ei* = 2500 matches.

 

So while we might expect some of these to be obsolete quirks or false positives, it looks fairly clear that you're wrong.

 

And for a bit of fun:

 

*cie* = 300 matches.

*cei* = 181 matches.

 

So "i before e except after c" doesn't really seem to work either... but then we knew that already, I guess. (it is, however, said to work better as "i before e except after c, when pronounced [i:]", although that'd be harder to verify, and probably wouldn't work for all dialects)

Edited December 5, 2011 by Supergrunch