Feminism and Political Correctness

[Ashley]

Sun: Is that why the masses are stupid sheep?

Mirror = Pointless

Star = Crap Sun

 

The Guardian seems to hate Govternment oppression; yet seem to love dishing out thought-crime accusations, PC-bullshit and seems so unbelievably up it's own arse etc. It just has such an everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others attitude. I can't stand it.

 

Its largely a personal thing but as soon as someone dismisses "PC" as being "bullshit" (or similar such things) I disregard that view. It's just a go-to statement that it implies (to me) a lack of thought. Its a knee jerk reaction, often to mis/false reporting. "Oh a school won't allow their lunch staff to be called 'lunchladies'? POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD!"

[Ashley]

And your idea isn't a knee-jerk reaction with a lack of thought?

 

Political Correctness doesn't need to "go mad", it is, and always has been an insulting term, and almost always uses inane reasoning (unless for selfish/twisted reasons).

To use "PC gone mad" certainly is used with a lack of thought, especially since it implies you'd be using PC as an insult without suggesting it mad.

 

 

It's probably not a good idea stereotypes/straw-men to fight against a point I've not even made. It's good to see you not (yet) fall into the typical pit of throwing words like bully and racism* like so many others seem to do *coughguardiancough* however.

 

Actual non-stupid people use the term political correctness to save writing an entire essay every time someone whines about something. Just because some retards misuse words, it doesn't mean everyone who uses it does. Political Correctness covers a lot more than just word use of course.

Is there a non-PC reason someone shouldn't be called a lunchlady? I can't honestly think of one. Please enlighten me.

 

No. My idea has been developed over the last seven years but I couldn't be bothered to fit all this thought into a late night post

 

I'm confused however. First you say it has always been "an insulting term" then you seem to go on to say it can be used correctly. I honestly can't recall the etymology of the word but its original notion was one of good intent, its just been given a bad name by certain outlets to undermine the issue.

 

And in terms of lunchlady it infers that its a female job and I'm not comfortable with defining jobs as male or female (particularly in a school setting as that's an important part of the socialisation process). And it's not because I'm some crazy lefty who wants political correctness, its because I'm a crazy feminist.

[The fish]

And in terms of lunchlady it infers that its a female job and I'm not comfortable with defining jobs as male or female (particularly in a school setting as that's an important part of the socialisation process). And it's not because I'm some crazy lefty who wants political correctness, its because I'm a crazy feminist.

 

As much as I hate to admit it, Ashley knows his shit. : peace:

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

its because I'm a crazy feminist.

 

Please tell me you see the irony in the fact that it's called "feminism" when it's about fighting for equal rights.

 

Am I the only uncultured one who thinks newspapers are a complete waste of paper and just reads everything on the internet when it happens for free, instead paying 30p to read about it 12-24 hours later?

 

Nah, I'm with you there.

[McPhee]

Please tell me you see the irony in the fact that it's called "feminism" when it's about fighting for equal rights.

 

Since when was Feminism ever about equal rights?

 

[EddieColeslaw]

Since when was Feminism ever about equal rights?

 

 

Equality > Feminism : peace:

[heroicjanitor]

Mustn't... Talk about feminism...

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

Since when was Feminism ever about equal rights?

 

Equality > Feminism : peace:

 

Feminism is about equal rights, but a lot of so-called feminists aren't feminists; they're man-hating lunatics, popularly known as feminazis.

 

Feminism is still a silly thing to call it, though.

[Ashley]

Feminism is about equal rights, but a lot of so-called feminists aren't feminists; they're man-hating lunatics, popularly known as feminazis.

 

Feminism is still a silly thing to call it, though.

 

They are feminists, they're just radical feminists. There's a whole host of different kinds of feminisms, of which radical is the most extreme.

 

Also you're inferring that hating men is crazy. Arguably its rather logical

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

They are feminists, they're just radical feminists. There's a whole host of different kinds of feminisms, of which radical is the most extreme.

 

Also you're inferring that hating men is crazy. Arguably its rather logical

 

If you believe women are better than men and should have privileges, you don't believe in gender equality, and I fail to see how you can then call yourself a feminist.

 

You could say the same for women, to be fair.

 

(If this continues, we're going to need a thrip.)

[Ashley]

It's the notion that the scales are so unbalanced that it needs something radical. But obviously radical feminists want the scales completely inverted, which isn't equilibrium equality (i.e. we're all equal now) but more equal in the sense that we've lived under a patriarchal society for so long that it's there term. I believe that its the basic jist of their argument but its been a long time since I really looked into RF. But again there is a plurality of feminisms and that's what I was getting at.

 

And you seem to be assuming I'm a radical feminist...

 

(and I think discussions of gender inequality is perfectly within place in a thread about News International )

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

It's the notion that the scales are so unbalanced that it needs something radical. But obviously radical feminists want the scales completely inverted, which isn't equilibrium equality (i.e. we're all equal now) but more equal in the sense that we've lived under a patriarchal society for so long that it's there term. I believe that its the basic jist of their argument but its been a long time since I really looked into RF. But again there is a plurality of feminisms and that's what I was getting at.

 

Gotcha. We agree on the terms, then.

 

And you seem to be assuming I'm a radical feminist...

 

Not at all. The "you" was used in the meaning "anyone, any unspecified individual".

 

(and I think discussions of gender inequality is perfectly within place in a thread about News International )

 

Could be, I wouldn't know.

[EEVILMURRAY]

(and I think discussions of gender inequality is perfectly within place in a thread about News International )

Yeah, it's not as if News International has high-up female staff... Oh...

I agree. There'll be 5 million printed and quite a lot of people will have the same idea.

Most likely, but maybe they'll be thinking the same as you and won't be keeping theirs, whilst I'll be a fox and keep mine.

 

Either way, it's only a pound. Actually 90p with staff discount, smash the system.

[Ashley]

Yeah, it's not as if News International has high-up female staff... Oh...

 

Wow. Do you really think putting a female in a top position makes the whoooole of NI equal?

[EEVILMURRAY]

Wow. Do you really think putting a female in a top position makes the whoooole of NI equal?

Well, the Guardian's got to do find something else to investigate.

[Kurtle Squad]

No. My idea has been developed over the last seven years but I couldn't be bothered to fit all this thought into a late night post

 

I'm confused however. First you say it has always been "an insulting term" then you seem to go on to say it can be used correctly. I honestly can't recall the etymology of the word but its original notion was one of good intent, its just been given a bad name by certain outlets to undermine the issue.

 

And in terms of lunchlady it infers that its a female job and I'm not comfortable with defining jobs as male or female (particularly in a school setting as that's an important part of the socialisation process). And it's not because I'm some crazy lefty who wants political correctness, its because I'm a crazy feminist.

 

But a lunchlady is a lunchlady.

You seem to be under the impression that childeren are idiots. Treating them as such will certainly cause them the aquire such an attribute though.

 

The etymology of Political Correctness is that is was originally used as an insult towards those who put ideas/actions which were politically correct over everything else. At least, that's what I've found. It's irrelivent really.

 

By using the term PC correctly, I meant not over using it or using it inaccurately; y'know, like people do with the R word.

Political Correctness covers quite a wide variety of things/ideas; there's a definate grey area between PC, politeness and other things. It doesn't just cover negative things, but someone wouldn't use it for certain ideas really, such as things concerning basic morality.

 

Anyway, you must be pretty bigotted to believe that anyone who comes to the conclusion that something is PC must be somehow deluded/knee-jerking. Stereotyping everyone as a Daily Mail stereotype really does undermine the issue.

 

 

P.S. Crazy Feminists should be jailed under the Equality Act 2010.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Kurtle Squad

[Ashley]

But a lunchlady is a lunchlady.

You seem to be under the impression that childeren are idiots. Treating them as such will certainly cause them the aquire such an attribute though.

 

The etymology of Political Correctness is that is was originally used as an insult towards those who put ideas/actions which were politically correct over everything else. At least, that's what I've found. It's irrelivent really.

 

By using the term PC correctly, I meant not over using it or using it inaccurately; y'know, like people do with the R word.

Political Correctness covers quite a wide variety of things/ideas; there's a definate grey area between PC, politeness and other things. It doesn't just cover negative things, but someone wouldn't use it for certain ideas really, such as things concerning basic morality.

 

Anyway, you must be pretty bigotted to believe that anyone who comes to the conclusion that something is PC must be somehow deluded/knee-jerking. Stereotyping everyone as a Daily Mail stereotype really does undermine the issue.

 

 

P.S. Crazy Feminists should be jailed under the Equality Act 2010.

 

A lunch lady is a lunch person (or 'lunch staff', which sounds less awkward) who also happens to be a lady. I'm not saying we shouldn't allow people to call themselves lunch lady if they so choose but in job descriptions and such it shouldn't be classed as 'lunch lady'. It's pretty close to gender discrimination for one thing (it implies males can't apply for the job and it is definitely not exempt from the gender discrimination act). It also helps impregnate the idea that there are male and female job types. And I'm not treating children like idiots. Research has shown that children tend to genderise jobs anyway even when they're non-gender specific (e.g. nurse, cleaner, teacher vs. firefighter, doctor and builder) yet alone when they specifically have the word 'lady' in them.

 

I didn't say must be a knee-jerk reaction. I said I tend to find it is used as a knee-jerk reaction. I also tend to find pear cider preferable to apple but that doesn't mean its a rule.

 

I never mentioned the Daily Mail. I believe they call that projecting...

 

And finally I hope you realise I used the phrase "crazy feminist" ironically and was simply turning the phrase "crazy lefty" I used just a few words prior.

[chairdriver]

Radical feminism isn't concerned with scales or equality, it's concerned with the fact we live a world that revolves around gender, and men. Talking about equality is irrelevant, because it'd be equality within a patriarchal system.

 

Feminism is my favourite thing. Because only through feminist liberation will queer liberation follow.

 

---

 

As for political correctness, often it's correct for a reason.

 

Conversation I had 2 days ago:

My Mum: Eenie meanie minie mo, catch a nigger by the toe [...]

Me: Mum! Don't say that, that's awful!

Mum: Well that's what we used to say when I was young.

Me: Doesn't change the fact that word is heavily associated with slavery, and exploitation of black people, and a whole lot of people would get angry at you if they heard that!

Mum: It's all political correctness.

Me: Yeah, correctness, because using it is essentially glorifying slavery, and is really quite repugnant.

Mum: ...

[Daft]

Disability theory is way forward.

[chairdriver]

Disability theory is way forward.

 

[Can't work out if you're being serious or not, but if you are, I agree, it's actually pretty interesting / really illuminating. How far are disabled people dis-abled? Do we allow mentally disabled people to vote? Do we allow Down's syndrome peeps to have sex lives? Should disability be celebrated? Is winning gold at the parolympics less impressive than a standard gold medal? Should we allow euthanasia? How far should we include disabled people in political ideology?

 

etc etc]

[Daft]

I never joke about identity politics.

[Goafer]

Still the best interview on racism I've seen. I take a similar view to pretty much everything to do with discrimination. Obviously if it's a serious problem such as harassment it deserves attention, but in day to day life I agree with Mr Freeman.

 

[chairdriver]

Still the best interview on racism I've seen. I take a similar view to pretty much everything to do with discrimination. Obviously if it's a serious problem such as harassment it deserves attention, but in day to day life I agree with Mr Freeman.

 

But then, I actually like being a gay man. Feminists like being women. Black activists / Malcolm X followers like being black. It's a celebration of identity.

 

Assimilation into patriarchal, heteronormative, white ideals should not be advocated. It's pacifist, let's-not-cause-a-stir, bullshit centrist politics.

[Yvonne]

I find this somewhat relevant:

 

 

Stewart Lee is one of the few comics who can actually get by without marginalising people.

 

Also I have to disagree with Morgan Freeman, I don't think issues go away when you don't talk about them, I think all that happens is people think the issue is gone because they haven't heard from it in a while. It's a silencing tactic and is used effectively against many marginalised groups.

 

Here's some great feminist links I've found in my travels:

http://www.feministe.us/blog/

http://tigerbeatdown.com/

http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/

 

And never thought you would find a feminist gaming site?

http://borderhouseblog.com/

 

The term feminazi is problematic for the reason that it diminishes the meaning of nazi, and in my opinion is disrespectful to those affected by the events of the time. Also, who do you know who epitomises a so called feminazi? I would argue that it is a strawperson/bogey figure and that when you actually think about it, barely anyone fits the bill.

 

I think what alarms people who've not encountered feminism before is that a lot of their assumptions get challenged. This makes them defensive and then less willing to listen. Maybe you bring up a point that they've responded to a hundred times already, and don't hold your hand through your encounter with feminist ideas. Confirmation bias kicks in and the person will go on to tell themselves "what an unreasonable feminazi bitch".

 

Contrary to previously made arguments feminism is the name of a movement for gender EQUALITY, not the overthrow of men. There can, are and should be feminists who are men. The name sticks as an acknowledgement of the past and current state of inequality. Who knows, maybe one day things will even out. I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

I basically agree with Morgan Freeman except on two points:

 

1) He is a black man. Why shouldn't we call him that? Why not call a spade a spade? The problem lies not in identifying someone as black/white/having any particular feature, but in making that particular feature their entire identity. That is the core problem. By not calling him black, we only worsen the problem, which leads me to ...

 

2) I don't believe in silencing issues to death. When has anyone ever made anything disappear by not talking about it? It only helps create taboos, sensitivity and fear about the topic. Quite the contrary, we need to bring issues like this to light, spread awareness, knowledge and reason about the topic. Only that way can ignorance, narrow-mindedness and stupidity be combatted.