Sheikah Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 From eating vegan stuff when I had a vegan girlfriend it was crap, and didn't make me feel better at all. Soya meat products taste incredibly processed. I would wager those saying they felt better from vegan diets are either anti animal cruelty or have a general dislike/stomach disagreement with meat. There's no reason why you couldn't eat parts of the vegan diet alongside lean meats to be even healthier. No sense limiting your pallet really if you quite like/have no qualms with eating meat.
EddieColeslaw Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 I don't think that you would evolve eating meat for thousands of years, then discover eating no meat is healthier For the vegetarians how many supplements do you take? (the ones that say it is not meant as a replacement for a proper diet :p ) Maybe we would evolve better without eating meat! Let's try! :p Even better, replace grains with quinoa, and take seeds and nuts every day! (I'm not seriously saying that everyone should do this. But it would be an interesting experiment.) I take Lidl Multivitamin & Iron, which is about 90c with 100% RDA of everything (too lazy to list everything out). I bought a jar of Solvita vegan multivitamins a couple of years ago with 1000% RDA of everything for about €30 - €50, but I ended up throwing them away because they were too strong for me, i.e. I got headaches :/ At least I got a free towel for buying it... Heres a famous little thread about eating habits that some of the newer members may not know about. Sit back and enjoy dynastygals posts (this is what not eating meat does to you!) http://www.n-europe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17481 All I've learned from this thread is that everyone has different preferences and they should all be allowed to make their own choices. And you shouldn't flame people who have a different diet to you However, despite not having had meat in almost 3 years, I don't think I've ever shouted at someone in caps on here :p Turn vegan, or I'll firebomb your butchers. My, what a forceful approach! You'll also have to firebomb all dairy product manufacturers :p Hell, why not just firebomb all supermarkets except for the health food stores Firebomb all farms as well! But...then you'd be killing animals... -- Out of curiosity, and this is potentially derailing, but animal cruelty/rights has been mentioned, and arab_freak kind of already answered this. How strongly do you feel about animals/animal rights, e.g. animal abuse, killing animals for their fur? Especially the people who eat meat. Do you equate it to killing animals to food and don't care/think it's ok, or is it different? If you do think that it's wrong, then surely you can at least understand where the mindset of the "moral" vegetarians/vegans come from (i.e. the ones who don't meat because they are animals which have been killed).
Supergrunch Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) I think evolutionary/biological arguments do have some merit, although of course they have to be assessed with scepticism. But they're not clearly in favour of meat, and lead to a bit of a (moral) paradox - it's fairly widely accepted that it was Homo erectus's starting to eat meat that gave the Homo line sufficient protein to develop the brains we have now, suggesting we're as we are because of meat-eating. But then current research also shows that higher animals are far more cognitively similar to us than we previously thought, which arguably makes meat eating worse. (interesting consideration: could people in the future view meat-eaters in the same way we view slave-traders?) That aside, of course, we've reached a stage of civilisation where we can exist without meat for food (other applications aside), but it's still kind of controversial whether this is better or worse for you. I think the jury's still out on vegetarianism v.s. omnivery, but it's clear that if you do eat meat, you should restrict the amount you consume, especially if it's red meat. And I'm pretty sure that veganism (as opposed to vegetarianism) is fairly indefensible in terms of being healthier, as so many aspects of a balanced diet have to be cut out and replaced. And while (potentially meaty) supplements can go some of the way to redressing these problems, they're not absorbed nearly as efficiently when they're not in food, so it's still kind of problematic. I take Lidl Multivitamin & Iron, which is about 90c with 100% RDA of everything (too lazy to list everything out). I bought a jar of Solvita vegan multivitamins a couple of years ago with 1000% RDA of everything for about €30 - €50, but I ended up throwing them away because they were too strong for me, i.e. I got headaches :/ At least I got a free towel for buying it... That's not surprising, as going above your RDA (especially by 10 times) isn't always a good thing - e.g. for Vitamin A (in forms other that beta-carotene) and selenium. Not everything's like portions of fruit and vegetables, where it appears to be a case of the more the better (though still within reason). Edited June 21, 2011 by Supergrunch Automerged Doublepost
EddieColeslaw Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 That's not surprising, as going above your RDA (especially by 10 times) isn't always a good thing - e.g. for Vitamin A (in forms other that beta-carotene) and selenium. Not everything's like portions of fruit and vegetables, where it appears to be a case of the more the better (though still within reason). Yep, learned my lesson there! Should have done some research before buying, especially with vitamin toxicity (overdose). I blame my parents though, they were like "NOT EATING MEAT = YOU WILL DIE!" so I was like "omg need a HQ vitamin to not die! *buys the strongest one*"
The Bard Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 I occasionally feel a twinge of guilt for the myriad of sources for my ridiculous daily meat consumption, but ironically, I'm intolerant to milk, wheat (and I'm suspicious of eggs also needing to be included in this - which is clinically unconfirmed at this point). Even eating a small amount of this ish makes me groggy, slow and prone to bouts of irreconcilable depression. Also, I've always found it weird to eat stuff that comes out of a cloaca.
Sheikah Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 My, what a forceful approach! You'll also have to firebomb all dairy product manufacturers :p Hell, why not just firebomb all supermarkets except for the health food stores Firebomb all farms as well! But...then you'd be killing animals... lol, sorry, I was just taking the piss out of my ex girlfriend (Dynastygal) who came on here and told a butcher (think it may have been McPhee) that she'd firebomb his butchers. Yeah, she was mental.
Dyson Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Sorry Sheikah, you're about a page late with that joke
Ramar Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 lol, sorry, I was just taking the piss out of my ex girlfriend (Dynastygal) who came on here and told a butcher (think it may have been McPhee) that she'd firebomb his butchers. Yeah, she was mental. I salute you, I don't think I could have put up with such a nutjob. First time you took her out for a meal must have been a complete fuck up.
Sheikah Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 I think she ate a bowl of leaves. What she deserved tbh.
Kurtle Squad Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) What I've never really understood with veganism and vegetarianism why make food that replicates the look of meat? What's the point of eating a fake sausage exactly? I don't particularly like fish, I sure wouldn't shape my substitute chicken into a fish shape just to fit in. Under that thinking there's no reason for a sausage to be sausage shaped either then.... Your false comparison with a chicken shaped like a fish is laughable: a sausage isn't pig shaped... Or do you think a sausage is in the same genus the haggis or something? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Veganism is stupid; there's no reason for someone not to eat eggs or milk products which you know are from a well looked after animal unless you're a lunatic. Buy British. Edited June 21, 2011 by Kurtle Squad
Sheikah Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 It's true that sausage isn't shaped like the pig itself but that particular shape is iconic for a meat sausage. He's arguing that the more recent vegan products harp on about not being meat yet adapt the 'shape of cruelty' so to speak when in actual fact they could make their food look completely different from meat products.
Ramar Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Under that thinking there's no reason for a sausage to be sausage shaped either then.... Your false comparison with a chicken shaped like a fish is laughable: a sausage isn't pig shaped... Or do you think a sausage is in the same genus the haggis or something? My example was poor but the point wasn't the example*, my point was why do vegetarians/vegans feel the need to replicate the look and name of meat products. I mean vegetarian meatballs, don't make a lot of sense, there's no meat in them. * And when I said fish shape, I didn't mean like turkey dinosaurs (a cut out shape of the creature). I meant more presented like a fillet of fish. It's true that sausage isn't shaped like the pig itself but that particular shape is iconic for a meat sausage. He's arguing that the more recent vegan products harp on about not being meat yet adapt the 'shape of cruelty' so to speak when in actual fact they could make their food look completely different from meat products. Spot on.
Eenuh Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 I don't see what else you could do with the shape of the replacement meats though? I mean putting it in the shape of a hamburger for example is just easy. Do they have to put it in squares then or something? Maybe you should go into the replacement meat business and come up with fancy shapes and names for all of it. =P
Sheikah Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 I don't see what else you could do with the shape of the replacement meats though? I mean putting it in the shape of a hamburger for example is just easy. Do they have to put it in squares then or something? Maybe you should go into the replacement meat business and come up with fancy shapes and names for all of it. =P I think the question to begin with is "why replacement meats"? Why combine soya and fuck loads of salt to begin with to produce a deformed 'sausage' that resembles meat? I guess this all goes back to human perceptions, and the fact that meat not only is tasty but looks delicious also. People who don't eat meat are still somewhat drawn to the look/general taste of it. That's why companies try at least to resemble some of the taste of meat with what they can.
EddieColeslaw Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 I occasionally feel a twinge of guilt for the myriad of sources for my ridiculous daily meat consumption, but ironically, I'm intolerant to milk, wheat (and I'm suspicious of eggs also needing to be included in this - which is clinically unconfirmed at this point). Even eating a small amount of this ish makes me groggy, slow and prone to bouts of irreconcilable depression. Also, I've always found it weird to eat stuff that comes out of a cloaca. I'm intolerant to milk too, but not cheese or yogurt (fermented stuff ok, ice-cream is also ok but not copious amounts). I figured this out after years of feeling extremely sick and groggy after eating Ready Brek/drinking milky tea as a kid. Apparently it's an Asian thing. Have you ever tried rice milk? It's so nice! Wheat intolerance sounds like a pain though :/
Eenuh Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 I don't know, I only eat some Quorn stuff (which is made from tiny mushrooms or whateverrr) and some vegetable burgers heh. The selection in our local store isn't big (only like, three or four products I think) so I can't really judge what's out there. I assume the replacement meats look like meat because that's what people are used to seeing. If you made it look completely different, people would probably be turned off by it and not buy it. Especially people who aren't in it for the moral issues. It's just a selling strategy really. Saying "meat is bad, but here you can have something that looks like meat, but is healthy!" etc. Don't think it helps though, people who eat meat will just keep eating it. =P
Sheikah Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Yeah, genetically people of European descent have much higher tolerance to dairy then from other parts of the world. Ready Brek for the win! Especially honey flavour.
EddieColeslaw Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Under that thinking there's no reason for a sausage to be sausage shaped either then.... Your false comparison with a chicken shaped like a fish is laughable: a sausage isn't pig shaped... Or do you think a sausage is in the same genus the haggis or something? But the point is that they are specifically manufactured to be meat analogues. Maybe the significance lies with branding/naming, then. I think the question to begin with is "why replacement meats"? Why combine soya and fuck loads of salt to begin with to produce a deformed 'sausage' that resembles meat? I guess this all goes back to human perceptions, and the fact that meat not only is tasty but looks delicious also. People who don't eat meat are still somewhat drawn to the look/general taste of it. That's why companies try at least to resemble some of the taste of meat with what they can. Correction: some (most?) people who don't eat meat are still drawn to meat, therefore these meat substitutes appeal to them. (They really don't appeal to me, especially since they're all highly processed like you said.) Meat substitutes are also a good way to slowly transition from eating meat to not eating any, I suppose - again for people who have no choice (cardiovascular health, etc.). Ready Brek for the win! Especially honey flavour. I loved the honey flavour! Too bad it made me feel like throwing up afterwards
Kurtle Squad Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) I don't see what else you could do with the shape of the replacement meats though? I mean putting it in the shape of a hamburger for example is just easy. Do they have to put it in squares then or something? Maybe you should go into the replacement meat business and come up with fancy shapes and names for all of it. =P Thanks; that was the second, unwritten part of my point. But the point is that they are specifically manufactured to be meat analogues. Maybe the significance lies with branding/naming, then. It's because there's nothing else they could be. Quorn and such is supposed to replace meat, so why not shape them like what they're supposed to replace? Not eating meat for moral reasons isn't about symbolism. Ironically it seems to be ignorant city types who seem to turn their noses up at food that does look like the animal it came from. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Meat Lasagne 'Recipe': Quorn mince mixed with meat in a lasagne actually makes it less greasy as it absorbs the meatgreaseness. It doesn't impact on the flavour as far as I'm aware - and is healthier (fat wise). Edited June 21, 2011 by Kurtle Squad
Supergrunch Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Yeah, genetically people of European descent have much higher tolerance to dairy then from other parts of the world. Following up from this, I remember hearing that 75% of the world population have lactose intolerance. Those who aren't have a mutation allowing them to retain lactase into adulthood (I'm sure Shiekah knows this already, but it's kind of cool).
Eenuh Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 I have Quorn mince in my spaghetti. I was never a fan of actual minced meat (too much crap in there, like all those white pieces, hard pieces etc, ew), so this works great for me. I find it tastes better, but that's just me probably. =) I have never liked meat (or most meats like cow and pig, I'm generally fine with fish and chicken). I used to be like Eddie, dissecting my food, picking out the icky pieces, hiding meat, secretly giving it to the cat or slipping it onto my sister's plate. It started at an early age too, 4-5. =P So yeah, for people like me, replacement stuff is lovely haha. I just think it tastes nicer generally (though there's some crap out there too).
weeyellowbloke Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 I've toyed with the idea before (Unnff, I love eating dead animals). I'm thinking of giving it a go. I can't see it happening but I'm willing to try. Anyone else here tried veganism? Dude, go for the halfway house of vegetarianism first. Don't surf before you can swim. I lived with three vegans and a vegetarian for a year. It was alright although the food got a little bland and unadventurous after a while. The thing you've got to consider though is that veganism is a right ball-ache to maintain. You've got to pretty much cook from scratch every night and constantly consider whether you're getting all the nutrients you need (or else you turn jaundiced like one of my housemates). Oh and when going abroad you have to plan well in advance and research restaurants you can eat in. Recently on a trip a group of 12 had to travel two hours to reach a restaurant acceptable to the vegan clan... only to find it closed. I also never really understood why people go vegan either; the reasons just don't stack up. If it's for ethical reasons it just seems that you're arbitrarily drawing the line on what living creatures are ok to consume. Also, as arab freak pointed out, so much of the modern world is derived in some way from animal expoitation it would be near impossible to avoid them all. If it's for environmental reasons then, yes, you are reducing the amount of impact by avoiding meat. However, parts of a vegan diet such as soya and chickpeas will have been imported from far-flung parts of the world such as India, Brazil and North America and in some cases been grown on formerly forested land, so hardly impact free. I don't know, I just think the most sensible approach is to try and buy local as much as possible, reduce meat based meals to only 3 or 4 times a week and maybe try goats milk rather than cow milk. Or else try breatharianism for a completely impact free diet.
The Bard Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 I'm intolerant to milk too, but not cheese or yogurt (fermented stuff ok, ice-cream is also ok but not copious amounts). I figured this out after years of feeling extremely sick and groggy after eating Ready Brek/drinking milky tea as a kid. Apparently it's an Asian thing. Have you ever tried rice milk? It's so nice! Wheat intolerance sounds like a pain though :/ Rice milk is my favourite thing in the world, absolutely love it. Yeah Wheat intolerance is a bugger, I only got diagnosed recently. Means I can't have beer =(
Sheikah Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Following up from this, I remember hearing that 75% of the world population have lactose intolerance. Those who aren't have a mutation allowing them to retain lactase into adulthood (I'm sure Shiekah knows this already, but it's kind of cool). Yeah, it's something ridiculously high like that for the rest of the world. Also might be of interest is that 10-15% of Europeans have a mutation in the CCR5 receptor which increases resistance to HIV. And the 1% or so that have two copies of the mutation are near enough immune to HIV. Not sure how those two compare in any way but there ya go.
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