3rd Parties. Where is the innovation?

[Choze]

I think as the Wii has been out several years its time to raise the question of have 3rd parties been innovative on the console?

 

Have EA or Activision really delivered? Or is it the small indie devs who cant hope to sell much? Or perhaps only really first party games are pushing the boundaries?

 

My personal complaint on all 3 home systems would be that the big 3rd party publishers just dont put any effort into innovating. The same big games that sell tens of millions are still the same games we play every year with hardly any meaningful changes. Whats funny is that recently EA made a statement amounting to the Wii needs to innovate in order to compete with Kinect or Move. I find that strange given that EA themselves never innovate.

 

Surely software quality is more important than free hardware marketing for a publisher to sell cheaply made shovelware at high prices?

 

Discuss.

[Retro_Link]

Yeah the Wii was a great tool for allowing developers to innovate and you're right that they haven't delivered.

 

It even feels like some existing franchises that could have fully utilised the Wii, have just been delivered in half assed attempts... such as Super Monkey Ball (whose Wii sequels have been worse than the originals), or EA's Grand Slam Tennis... that could have been built upon for a sequel this year, but wasn't.

 

It does seem to have been left down to First Party developers of late... Wii Sports/Fit, Little Big Planet etc... whilst third parties just jump on the band wagon with their own versions of such games like EA's sports active etc...

All most third party innovation ammounts to is changing the number of buttons on a guitar hero controller at the moment!

Edited August 8, 2010 by Retro_Link

[D_prOdigy]

Nobody needs to innovate for the sake of innovation. I'm happy so long as a varied range of fun software is continued to be provided.

[Choze]

I agree Retro Link. Would EA Sports Active even exist without Nintendo?

 

I am glad there are afew companies that manage to still excite me with games. But the main feature of those games are that they are well made or innovative. In many cases nowadays games arent even well made. PC gaming used to be innovative now its just console ports with more resolution, AA and degraded sound.

 

Nobody needs to innovate for the sake of

innovation. I'm happy so long as a varied range of fun software is continued to be provided.

 

The Wii especially doesnt have a wide variety of software. Its seen very much as a shovelware machine with some Nintendo games. Unless you mean wholly mediocre software? Would you play fps on the Wii for example?

[D_prOdigy]

The Wii especially doesnt have a wide variety of software. Its seen very much as a shovelware machine with some Nintendo games. Unless you mean wholly mediocre software? Would you play fps on the Wii for example?

 

Well someone with views this ignorant I would not expect to see posting around here anyway. Not every can be perfect, though.

[mcj metroid]

The wii has been more innovative than the rest of the consoles. You know this because the competition are now COPYING THEM!

 

I agree third party games could be better but third party was much worse on consoles like the n64.

[Retro_Link]

Though arguably at least the third party games we did get on the N64 (and even gamecube) were of higher quality. Now the Wii get's third party support, but a high percentage of it is half assed!

[Jonnas]

Just like in any other highly popular console, like the PSX and the PS2.

 

The real question is: the number of quality 3rd party games has increased or decreased since the GC days? because I think that increased as well, not just the number of crappy products.

[mcj metroid]

hm I'm not sure that's very arguable. There might have been some amazing second party games on n64 sure

 

lets see there was

NO mercy

Space Station: Silicon Valley

harvest moon 64

resident evil 2

rayman 2

tony hawks

Starcraft 64

Ogre Battle 64

some decent sports games

 

I know there's isn't as much shit but I'm pretty sure already the wii most have 4 times the amount of games the n64 had already.

 

I do believe gamecube has them both beat though. Probably because it was easy to port to it from the ps2 and xbox.

[Emasher]

Well someone with views this ignorant I would not expect to see posting around here anyway. Not every can be perfect, though.

 

I think what he's getting at is more the fact that well Nintendo did something different with the console, developers aren't really doing much different with the games. Developers working on titles for the other consoles, and the PC are using the hardware a lot better than the are with the Wii. We're seeing things like destructible environments, and larger worlds with a lot more to do in them on other consoles. We're not seeing very many games on the Wii that take advantage of the motion controls. Sure, you get the odd game like Zach and Wiki, but a lot of the software being released is either a rip off of a 1st party game, or something that would have worked equally as well on another console. I'm not trying to say the titles that do use the hardware well don't exist on the Wii, but there certainly aren't a lot of them.

 

In terms of the variety of games on the Wii, while there are a lot of different genre's covered, in many cases, you only have a very small selection of games, and sometimes, the ones that do exist don't really compare to anything on the other consoles. Look for instance at the racing genre. While there are a lot of cart racing games, and more arcade style racers, there really isn't anything on the console for someone who wants a realistic racing game. Looking at the FPS genre, you have some retro style shooters like The Conduit, and MoH:H2, and some more fast paced ones like CoD, but there isn't really anything slow and tactical. At the same time, there are some more well represented genres on the console like platformers.

 

What I don't understand is why consoles are stereotyped so much. Saying the Wii only has casual party shovelware is just as bad as saying the PS3/360 just have brown and grey shooters with bald space marines.

[Konfucius]

I actually think Nintendo hindered innovation with imprecise controls. For instance before motion plus devs couldn't do accurate swordfighting and steering with the wiimote also lacks the precision of a joystick. In pretty much anything I played I could trick the motion controls and sometimes the sensors had a different interpretation of what I was doing than I had. So far I felt that the Wii's controls only make sense for shooters, swordfighting games and Okami.

 

The other problem is that the graphics hardware is outdated. The controls would be brilliant for FPS but it's usually the FPS that push the graphics the most. Also imagine a game like Assassin's Creed without the high polygon count and flat textures instead. You wouldn't be able to tell which surfaces you can grasp most of the time.

 

When I have to think of an innovative Wii title No More Heroes springs to mind. While it could be done on any other console without any gameplay changes the Wiimote really adds a degree of immersion. I also found the gameplay rather fresh with a combination of swordfighting and wrestling and minigames.

[Pookiablo]

I agree third party games could be better but third party was much worse on consoles like the n64.

 

Bullshit was it! There were some great third-party efforts on N64, there just wasn't much third-party support with regards to the number of games.

 

Top efforts that come to mind are:

 

- The ISS series

- Mystical Ninja Starring Goemon games

- Body Harvest

- Space Station: Silicon Valley

- Beetle Adventure Racing!

- Battletanx: Global Assault

- Rainbow Six

- Star Wars: Rogue Squadron

- Star Wars: Battle for Naboo

- Snowboard Kids

 

I'm by no means saying these are the best games ever but a lot of effort was put into making them. Rogue Squadron and Battle for Naboo are the best examples, Factor 5 did a ton of researching and shit to push the 64 to the limits (the only others capable of doing so being Nintendo and Rare).

 

And third-parties can't be blamed for abandoning the 64, if I had the choice between 650MB storage for my games or a mere 64MB at most, and at far greater cost, I know what I'd go for!

[daftada]

Firstly, there have been loads of fun third-party games on the Wii, if you are willing and able to take a chance on some of the borderline good/great titles out there. I know it's down to personal taste but for me the Wii has provided so many great experiences outside Nintendo's in-house stuff - possibly more than any other Nintendo console (the last 18 months have been absolute heaven for me).

 

The trouble is they don't sell well, either because gamers aren't willing to try games that aren't part of their favourite series/genre, or because there just isn't the market there. Can you blame developers and publishers for not bringing out innovative gameswhen those titles that have shown innovation and originality have failed to bring the returns they expect?

 

There aren't many Publishers that haven't tried to bring something new to the table, here are my thoughts.

 

EA started off well with SSX Blur and My Sims, then eventually got things right with Tiger Woods. And of course there was Boom Blox, which was a fantastic puzzle game. The other sports titles have at least tried to do something cool with the remote even if they haven't pulled it off.

 

Capcom also started out with good intentions with Zack & Wiki; and Tatsunoko vs Capcom and Monster Hunter were both great titles. I'd also add the two Res Evil shooters and Res Evil 4 port as some of my Wii highlights.

 

Sega tried their best with HotD Overkill, MadWorld and Conduit - and while they weren't 90%+ titles they were all still fun to play. Must also mention the crazy Sakura Wars, a real treat for those that love quirky Japanese games.

 

Ubisoft got a lot of stick for their early Wii output and rightly so, but Red Steel 2 was an absolutely brilliant FPS, possibly my favourite of this generation. It has a great graphocal style, is a bloody huge game and has innovative controls (Skyward sword has enemies that you have to strike in a particular direction to dispatch, well RS 2 got there first and never got the same level of praise...)

 

THQ haven't had too many quality games, but De Blob and Deadly Creatures were awesome.

 

Activision gets a lot of stick, like EA a few years ago, but lets not forget how they squeezed the CoD engine onto the Wii. And had Neversoft not found a way around Nintendo's crap memory/sd card set up would we still be waiting for a solution to our horrid VC storage issues?

 

Finally, the best Wii publisher in my eyes is Rising Star - I've loved nearly every Wii game they've released: Little King Story, Murumasa, No More Heroes, Fragile Dreams, the Harvest Moon games, Rune Factory Frontier etc. They above all other publishers deserve a 'multi-million seller' because they've released all those amazing titles on a shoe-string budget when larger publishers (including Nintendo) might have overlooked them. They probably don't make a great deal of money out of them, but they've stuck with it and thanks to them we've been able to enjoy games we wouldn't have had a hope of seeing without them around.

 

 

In summation, Wii = all kinds of awesome, you just need to open your eyes.

[Fierce_LiNk]

Daftada, I agree with you. Especially that last line.

 

The Wii especially doesnt have a wide variety of software. Its seen very much as a shovelware machine with some Nintendo games. Unless you mean wholly mediocre software? Would you play fps on the Wii for example?

 

I strongly disagree with that first line. There is a lot of variety on the system. The weaker genres are probably racing (with not an awful lot of games outside ExciteTruck/bots and Mario Kart) and maybe FPS. Well, there's a lot of shooters. As Daftada pointed out, there's Red Steel. Then there's Modern Warfare. There's quite a few out there, but maybe not as "popular" as Gears of War or Resistence.

 

Outside of those genres, there is a large amount of variety. I find that some games "overlap" in genres, and they can be tricky to classify. Also, your view of the system is very distorted. Mediocre software? Is that according to you? Does every game have to be a "Blockbuster" FPS now?

[Retro_Link]

This threads really about innovation and less about the amount of third party support.

 

There may be plenty of good titles from third parties out there, on Wii or otherwise... but how many of them are trying to do something different?

[Fierce_LiNk]

I know that. I was picking up on Choze's point. "The wii doesn't have a large variety of software."

 

I agree with what D_Prod said anyway. Innovating because "we must innovate" is not how it should be. It should be with the aim of creating new experiences. However, if you're playing a game and it has captured your interest, then does it matter that it strictly isn't "that original"? The Fun factor is the important thing.

 

Silent Hill: Shattered Memories wasn't strictly an original game, because it's a re-imagining of the first game. Yet, there were several innovating ideas within it. The same with Dead Space Extraction. Lightgun/on-rail shooters are not new, but the ideas in that game were different, such as the pacing of the game. It's not like most shooters of its type where the action is relentless.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Fierce_LiNk

[The Lillster]

The Wii especially doesnt have a wide variety of software. Its seen very much as a shovelware machine with some Nintendo games. Unless you mean wholly mediocre software? Would you play fps on the Wii for example?

 

I don't see how you can use this argument against the Wii, when every time I see you online, on the PS3, you are playing some form of FPS.

 

The only reason you've created this thread is because you were bored.

 

Most people who use Xbox or PS3 as their primary console, mostly play some form of FPS, they might play a niche title once in awhile but FPS's are pretty much the only genre they play.

 

There are plenty of good games on the Wii, it's just that the popular titles are mostly Nintendo titles.

 

Do you even own a Wii and do you use it often, buy new games etc...

 

If not then you're wasting my time and everyone else's time in here.

 

3rd parties dropped the ball when it came to Wii support.

 

At the end of the day Nintendo doesn't give a shit about 3rd parties and 3rd parties don't give a shit about Nintendo.

 

Hopefully this will change with the 3DS and their next home console.

 

Oh by the way, now that PS3 has a controller offering similar experiences to the tWii, expect a lot of ports and shovelware heading your way, of course you won't be making a thread about that will you.

Edited August 10, 2010 by The Lillster

[darksnowman]

The knee-jerk reaction is to post about shovelware and how terrible third parties have been on the Wii, with both their level of quality output and innovation. The thing is, I look at my collection of Wii games and you know what? Its the Nintendo home console that I've the most third party titles for. How's that for a paradox. While we might want to question the innovation of every game out there, there's just something fresh about gaming on the Wii, imo.

[Daft]

Most people who use Xbox or PS3 as their primary console, mostly play some form of FPS, they might play a niche title once in awhile but FPS's are pretty much the only genre they play.

 

 

Hopefully this will change with the 3DS and their next home console.

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa... Two things.

 

Most people with 360s and PS3 don't mostly play some form of FPS. That's just a surreal assumption. The past couple months my friends list has been divided by people playing Uncharted 2 online, Red Dead Redemption and Demon's Souls. I see MW2 get played every now and again, but otherwise FPSs just don't feature that much. (At least on the PS3, I haven't switched my 360 on...unless I want to play L4D, which is an FPS, but an innovative and unique one.)

 

 

The hope that 3rd parties will start giving a shit about the next home console, it probably won't happen. Probably because now Nintendo are the only one of the three not pushing videogames on a technical level, which is very important. (For example graphics, since videogames core method of feedback is the screen.)

[The Lillster]

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa... Two things.

 

Most people with 360s and PS3 don't mostly play some form of FPS. That's just a surreal assumption. The past couple months my friends list has been divided by people playing Uncharted 2 online, Red Dead Redemption and Demon's Souls. I see MW2 get played every now and again, but otherwise FPSs just don't feature that much. (At least on the PS3, I haven't switched my 360 on...unless I want to play L4D, which is an FPS, but an innovative and unique one.)

 

Well if you want to be fussy, most people with PS3/Xbox or both, play mostly shooters with a little bit of action and adventure added into the mix.

 

Just look at the monthly NPD charts or the weekly Chart Track rankings and you will see that the best selling game is Modern Warfare 2 (MW2) on the HD twins.

 

That's evidence that most people play FPS's.

 

The only game you just mentioned, that's significantly different is Demon's Souls and I bet you that didn't sell nearly as well, as a game such as Gears of War or MW2.

 

The FPS genre, is the most popular genre on the HD twins, so how can you argue that most people on PS3 and Xbox 360 don't mostly play some form of FPS?

 

You're friends list maybe filled with people playing a variety of different genres, but I bet you that percentage will be very small versus the entire HD user base.

 

The hope that 3rd parties will start giving a shit about the next home console, it probably won't happen. Probably because now Nintendo are the only one of the three not pushing videogames on a technical level, which is very important. (For example graphics, since videogames core method of feedback is the screen.)

 

Well I can't predict the future, so I don't know what Nintendo has planned. Saying that, why are there rumours that the 3DS will be more expensive than previous Nintendo handhelds, some analysts predict $250+?

 

This isn't entirely directed at you, but it seems that the only reason you and Choze come to post in this board, is to cause some form of argument or just to take the piss. You've even admitted that yourself in the rival console boards, albeit not in those exact words.

[Emasher]

Just look at the monthly NPD charts or the weekly Chart Track rankings and you will see that the best selling game is Modern Warfare 2 (MW2) on the HD twins.

 

That's evidence that most people play FPS's.

 

We already know that FPS games sell a lot on the other consoles, but there are also a lot of non-shooter games being played. While it certainly is evidence that a lot of people play FPS games, although, it doesn't suggest that they play them exclusively, I really don't see how that makes the Wii have a larger verity of games. People buy games of all genre's, and there are games being made of all genres. I mean, if you really want to look at sales figures, it should be noted that 3rd party games haven't sold that well on the Wii in general, and the majority of the ones that did sell well, were shovelware.

[Daft]

What Emasher said.

 

I wasn't posting to start an argument. I was just responding to your (Lillster) laughably sweeping generalisation.

[The Lillster]

We already know that FPS games sell a lot on the other consoles, but there are also a lot of non-shooter games being played. While it certainly is evidence that a lot of people play FPS games, although, it doesn't suggest that they play them exclusively, I really don't see how that makes the Wii have a larger verity of games. People buy games of all genre's, and there are games being made of all genres. I mean, if you really want to look at sales figures, it should be noted that 3rd party games haven't sold that well on the Wii in general, and the majority of the ones that did sell well, were shovelware.

 

First of all, I never said which console I think is the best when it comes to genre diversity and to be quite honest, I don't really care.

 

All market leading game systems have shovelware (SW), there are a few SW games that have sold well, yes, but I bet you there is a lot more that did not.

 

There are good 3rd party games, that should have sold better but that can be said for any game system.

 

What Emasher said.

 

I wasn't posting to start an argument. I was just responding to your (Lillster) laughably sweeping generalisation.

 

Of course, just like you and Choze' sweeping generalization of the Wii.

 

As I said before, I don't know why you bother coming into the Wii threads, you've expressed your distaste for the Wii and it's games, many times before.

 

You don't see me coming into Xbox 360 threads and telling everyone how shit it is, that's because I don't own one and have no interest in the console.

[Emasher]

First of all, I never said which console I think is the best when it comes to genre diversity and to be quite honest, I don't really care.

 

All market leading game systems have shovelware (SW), there are a few SW games that have sold well, yes, but I bet you there is a lot more that did not.

 

There are good 3rd party games, that should have sold better but that can be said for any game system.

 

I agree with all of that, I was just trying to point out that people arguing either side tend to make generalizations.

[Daft]

Of course, just like you and Choze' sweeping generalization of the Wii.

 

As I said before, I don't know why you bother coming into the Wii threads, you've expressed your distaste for the Wii and it's games, many times before.

 

You don't see me coming into Xbox 360 threads and telling everyone how shit it is, that's because I don't own one and have no interest in the console.

 

I was in the 360 thread earlier telling everyone how shit it is.

 

I save my sweeping generalisations about the Wii for the Other boards because they're obviously a joke and everyone gets that (Honestly, I don't do it often at all and when I went on that rant, in a single post I'll add, the thread was all over the place - we were all joking around). I only pointed out that your notion that 70/80 million people odd mostly play FPSs is ludicrous and I've seemed to have wronged you somehow.

 

I don't come in these boards often, I can't remember the last time I did. I have a Wii so I don't see what's wrong with me looking around here now and again.

 

As for Choze, I have very little idea what he's ever on about - he's on my ignore list.