Collateral Murder

[chairdriver]

 

I know this is beating a decaying horse, but this is essential viewing.

[Paj!]

Horrible...and just so...pointless. They didn't actually bother to check.

 

And the revelling in the death is of course a bit disturbing.

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

So the soldiers simply shot down obviously innocent civilians because they were trigger happy? I find it hard to believe. I don't want to believe it. My brain is searching for proofs that the video is fake. Yet I can't seem to find any. If it's indeed real, the state of affairs is truly sad.

[danny]

Horrible...and just so...pointless. They didn't actually bother to check.

 

And the revelling in the death is of course a bit disturbing.

 

I coudnt watch it all as for some reason my dongle has got a proper shit connection just over night. As for pointless i dispute that fact the world is a better place with out saddam. They didnt check? How do you check they thought they had weapons, (im not saying he didnt make the wrong dessicion but how do you check? land and ask him?)

 

And what was the crack with the revelling was that before or after they realised they had fucked up. If before i can totally understand i could revell in the death of extremeists.

If after they realised they had fucked up then that is worrying.

 

Aparently this sort of thing isnt allowed on N-europe either as i had a video removed which was simaler to this but showed taliban blowing themselves up. And apparetly it wasnt apropriate. Or is it ok unless if it shows coalition forces in a bad light?

 

Sadly though this is not isolated. The americans do tend to be trigger happy as was seen at the start of telic 1 when they blew up a load of our lads. And they got away with that. So you cant say the are consistant with the justice.

[Debug Mode]

Just came on here a second ago to post this, glad some one else is paying attention to the real news of today..

 

All I can say is, I've been following this story for 2 weeks, read Wikileaks twitter feed as the US Government took more of a disliking to them, tailing them on flights outside of Iceland, arresting one of the minor's cooperating with the release of this video and confiscating his computer and now that I've seen it, it's obvious why.

 

AK-47's? An RPG? I watched the first piece of footage atleast 3 times now, I like to keep an open mind as of course, they are in a helicopter, it's hard to identify things from that range. But 2 men with camera's around them are interpreted to have AK-47's, and then a minute later, assumed to have an RPG. The only thing you could possibly guess from is two men, AK-47's, indicating plural, is a sorry mistake which lets be honest, could have been discounted the more they whirled around and noted it is way too small, but wheres this RPG and "Shooting at us" bollocks they claim?

 

Fucking livid. "Children have been found, now taking them to local hospital" gets followed up by one of the trigger fucking happy helicopter operators "Shouldn't take your kids to a battle field".

 

I didn't see any mention of this on the news today, did any one else?

[danny]

Fucking livid. "Children have been found, now taking them to local hospital" gets followed up by one of the trigger fucking happy helicopter operators "Shouldn't take your kids to a battle field".

 

Well if they still didnt know there was no weapons is that not a fair comment? The sad thing is the ppl out there do take there children to battle field. To use them as shields or if the child is a bit dim they strap them with explosives and get them to walk towards soldiers then blow them up with a remote.

[Paj!]

 

And what was the crack with the revelling was that before or after they realised they had fucked up. If before i can totally understand i could revell in the death of extremeists.

If after they realised they had fucked up then that is worrying.

 

They didn't "realise" anything...they just killed them then laughed about "Good shooting!" and tanks running over the bodies.

 

They actively denied/covered it up after the fact, that's the point. No one admitted to realising how horrible it was.

[danny]

But did they know they had killed inocent ppl b4 they joked about it. If they did that is bad. If they still think they are enemys then that is good shooting they are dead.

Anyway are we going to see any consistancy in the moderation of this site and have the video removed? No thought not what a joke.

[Debug Mode]

Well if they still didnt know there was no weapons is that not a fair comment? The sad thing is the ppl out there do take there children to battle field. To use them as shields or if the child is a bit dim they strap them with explosives and get them to walk towards soldiers then blow them up with a remote.

 

Like I said, I watched the video multiple times because I knew some one was going to make that point and it is valid, but after they hovered around looking at these guys, seeking permission to shoot, you can make out the length of the black thing around him was definitely not a weapon, yes, you could for a minute mistake it as an AK-47, but you missed one crucial point.

 

An RPG is fucking massive. They claimed one of them was shooting. Justify it, you sure picked up on defending their sarcastic statement, how the hell can you not bring those kids into a 'battle field'? The guy probably just drove past and saw the body and went to its aid, how can you possibly presume they were reckless enough to take their kids to a battle field?

 

Aren't you the same poster who jumped to the clearly guilty police officers defence of his use of brute force during a protest in another thread? Look at the brutality some of these authority figures are expressing mate, it's a shame the good ones get tarnished, but you need to keep an open eye and spread the word rather than be the one defending, you could fall victim to one of these power hungry parasites.

 

But did they know they had killed inocent ppl b4 they joked about it. If they did that is bad. If they still think they are enemys then that is good shooting they are dead.

Anyway are we going to see any consistancy in the moderation of this site and have the video removed? No thought not what a joke.

 

It may as well have been a joke considering the itch they had to shoot in the first place.

 

Come on! Let me shoot 'em!

[danny]

 

An RPG is fucking massive. They claimed one of them was shooting. Justify it, you sure picked up on defending their sarcastic statement, how the hell can you not bring those kids into a 'battle field'? The guy probably just drove past and saw the body and went to its aid, how can you possibly presume they were reckless enough to take their kids to a battle field?

 

Aren't you the same poster who jumped to the clearly guilty police officers defence of his use of brute force during a protest in another thread? Look at the brutality some of these authority figures are expressing mate, it's a shame the good ones get tarnished, but you need to keep an open eye and spread the word rather than be the one defending, you could fall victim to one of these power hungry parasites.

 

 

 

It may as well have been a joke considering the itch they had to shoot in the first place.

 

First of i aint seen the video all the way through my dongle dosent work properly as i said. Thank you for clearing up how big an RPG is for me mate. My point about the kids was if the guy thought still at the point he said it he had just killed actual enemy then his comment is valid. If it was after then its not. I will defend saracastic statements as long as they were said while they thought they had killed actual enemy as they are valid. If they were after they realised they had killed civis then there now.

 

Brutality of the people im defending, i havent defended the actions. Just the comments as they thought they had killed enemy how can comments be wrong if they still thought they had killed enemy?

And the coppers actions were right to defend. I said the yanks are far to triger happy they opend fire on brits on telic 1.

[Debug Mode]

First of i aint seen the video all the way through my dongle dosent work properly as i said. Thank you for clearing up how big an RPG is for me mate. My point about the kids was if the guy thought still at the point he said it he had just killed actual enemy then his comment is valid. If it was after then its not. I will defend saracastic statements as long as they were said while they thought they had killed actual enemy as they are valid. If they were after they realised they had killed civis then there now.

 

Brutality of the people im defending, i havent defended the actions. Just the comments as they thought they had killed enemy how can comments be wrong if they still thought they had killed enemy?

And the coppers actions were right to defend. I said the yanks are far to triger happy they opend fire on brits on telic 1.

 

Not really got much to say to that, I'l just end it on the fact that once you are able to watch the video, the clear lies of being attacked in order to be allowed to engage what really does look like 2 (admittedly questionable for the first minute) men with other people who you can tell had nothing on them or hints of attack, followed by attacking a van aiding the photographer with two kids next to the window is just outrageous.

[Gizmo]

Too lazy to watch the whole video or read the whole thread, because I already know how it goes.

 

"blabla war is bad soldiers are evil blabla"

 

*one person defends the soldiers*

 

*everyone else attacks that individual*

[danny]

Not really got much to say to that, I'l just end it on the fact that once you are able to watch the video, the clear lies of being attacked in order to be allowed to engage what really does look like 2 (admittedly questionable for the first minute) men with other people who you can tell had nothing on them or hints of attack, followed by attacking a van aiding the photographer with two kids next to the window is just outrageous.

 

All i will say is 99.9999% of people in the millitary ae decent people who would happily go through a 22 year career with out having to kill anyone they dont need to. You have to be able to sleep at night right.

So in these cases i tend to think at that moment in time they thought they were doing the right thing. That dosent mean mistakes are never made. But there are always exceptions.

 

Too lazy to watch the whole video or read the whole thread, because I already know how it goes.

 

"blabla war is bad soldiers are evil blabla"

 

*one person defends the soldiers*

 

*everyone else attacks that individual*

 

I would just like to say im not defending what they did.

But i was just saying you cant slag there coments if they still thought they had killed legit enemy.

[Emasher]

Did the officers who gave them permission to fire have access to the same view that the gunner did? I couldn't see either an RPG, or AK-47s. I don't blame the US Army (I'm assuming this is army) as a whole for stuff like this, but the people who were responsible for the actual process of attacking the group of people and the minivan were way out of line. If the actually did have an RPG, and looked like they were waiting to ambush the american caravan, or were aiming at the helicopters, I could see them justifying it, but personally, I couldn't even see any weapons. Also, when has it become okay to attack someone picking up their dead? I thought that was usually frowned upon? Especially since the people picking up the body were very not a threat.

[dwarf]

Too lazy to watch the whole video or read the whole thread, because I already know how it goes.

 

"blabla war is bad soldiers are evil blabla"

 

*one person defends the soldiers*

 

*everyone else attacks that individual*

That's a bit insensitive isn't it? People have a right to have a discussion about quite a serious issue and you just belittle it. I thought it was atrocious how the guy was trying to force the man to give him permission to shoot.

 

I'm disappointed in as much that I would've mowed them all down in half the time that American took. Inefficient.

Edited April 5, 2010 by dwarf

[danny]

I couldn't even see any weapons. Also, when has it become okay to attack someone picking up their dead? I thought that was usually frowned upon? Especially since the people picking up the body were very not a threat.

 

I think they thought the camera/tripod was a weapon i coudnt see the RPG though. Its frowned upon when you are fighting decnet people. People that will let you pick up your own dead and people that dont shoot medics. (not saying these civis arnt decent people i just mean the enemys out there in genral)

[Emasher]

I think they thought the camera/tripod was a weapon i coudnt see the RPG though. Its frowned upon when you are fighting decnet people. People that will let you pick up your own dead and people that dont shoot medics. (not saying these civis arnt decent people i just mean the enemys out there in genral)

 

I see, thanks for clearing that up.

 

There's no way one of them was carrying an RPG though:

 

 

They're just way to big for there to be any mistaking it.

Edited April 5, 2010 by Emasher

[Debug Mode]

All i will say is 99.9999% of people in the millitary ae decent people who would happily go through a 22 year career with out having to kill anyone they dont need to. You have to be able to sleep at night right.

So in these cases i tend to think at that moment in time they thought they were doing the right thing. That dosent mean mistakes are never made. But there are always exceptions.

 

Oh I don't doubt that the majority of them are decent, I just think the one's who are corrupt shouldn't be helped keep their respect they do not deserve by the government. They have insisted for years that an attack was instigated by the crowd and civilians were caught up, this clearly isn't the case. So many US Army soldiers will be lost for words and feel absolutely ashamed of what they are apart of despite doing a decent job protecting people themselves all because they have some bastards ruining the cause.

 

Too lazy to watch the whole video or read the whole thread, because I already know how it goes.

 

"blabla war is bad soldiers are evil blabla"

 

*one person defends the soldiers*

 

*everyone else attacks that individual*

 

0/10.

[Daft]

In this the UK, and I think America and the rest of Europe, you have to be proved guilty "beyond reasonable doubt" before being found guilty. We impose ourselves on these people, in their country and don't even afford them that same basic right. What are we fighting for again? Democracy? Curious...

[Jonnas]

So the soldiers simply shot down obviously innocent civilians because they were trigger happy?

(...)

If it's indeed real, the state of affairs is truly sad.

 

My thoughts exactly. This is just...

 

And I still don't understand why the fuck they shot the van. Seriously, isn't "shooting the medic" the most dishonourable action a soldier can make?

 

I wonder if those soldiers got any kind of punishment for their reckless behaviour? And if they didn't, well...

[weeyellowbloke]

An absolute fucking disgrace. I thought we were meant to be the good guys. Alright, maybe you might very possibly mistake a camera for a gun, but not one shot was fired at the helicopter. If it ended there I might be able to go fair enough they made a mistake. But then to focus on a wounded person crawling along a pavement and be willing him to pick up a weapon so as you'd have an excuse to shoot him some more is sickening. Then it goes even further; shooting people who are of no immediate threat to yourself while they try to help a seriously injured person...disgusting. Just to put icing on the cake they then have a good old laugh at the fact one of people they just killed gets run over by a tank showing no remorse at all and shrug off injuring two kids as being their fault for bringing them to a "battle".

 

No matter what your opinion on the war as a whole I can't believe anyone could find anything honourable or justified in these actions.

[The fish]

Alright, maybe you might very possibly mistake a camera for a gun, but not one shot was fired at the helicopter.

 

Even if they were a group of armed insurgents, do you really thin they're going to engage a helicopter they probably can't see well over a kilometre away over a large city which probably has dozens of helicopters going over it every day with small arms and an old RPG?

 

One of the most irritating thing about this whole outcry is that people seem to be almost under the impression that the pilots, like them, were watching this through a nice big laptop screen with nothing else to focus one. Watch it again with the video at normal Youtube size with your screen at an arm's reach, whilst bearing in mind that no one wants to have their name under the headline "armed terrorists allowed to wonder down street whilst being ignored by attack chopper pilots as they mistake Kalashnikov for camera".

 

I'm not saying what was done was right, I'm just saying you people need to think more carefully about what actually happened.

 

As for what was said, "Good Shooting" is a general phrase for when shooting is accurate, and doesn't mean, as some elements of the media would have you believe, "wow, that was great watching you shoot those people!", and everything else was a combination of the pilots believing they'd just engaged insurgents and the general, US military-wide problem of thinking you're in your own action film - a trait anyone who's watched any of the films done by people inbedded with US Marines will have noticed.

 

And I still don't understand why the fuck they shot the van. Seriously, isn't "shooting the medic" the most dishonourable action a soldier can make?

 

It's been seen that insurgents will collect weapons from sites of attacks on their forces, and it also means denying them a somewhat precious form of transport. Oh, and they, y'know, set up double bombs to injure people with one, then kill those who come to their aid with the second.

 

This whole thing reminds me very much of the Stockwell Station incident - everything I have seen points to the case having been that the people "on the ground" (as it were) did precisely the right thing, and if people higher up the chain of command had done things properly, then the people on the ground would at worst be just doing their job, and at best be heroes.

 

Is it just me, or has WikiLeaks kind of shot its credibility of being calm and unbiased in the foot? It's almost reacted hysterically, and the video is clearly edited in a biased manner, by someone who is in the position to rewind the video, zoom it in, and go through frame by frame looking for (probably hoping to find) anything that could be the children in the van whilst not having to simultaneously concentrate on anything else (flying a helicopter, for example), and then have the cheek to essentially go, "well, I saw them, so why couldn't they!"

[weeyellowbloke]

Even if they were a group of armed insurgents, do you really thin they're going to engage a helicopter they probably can't see well over a kilometre away over a large city which probably has dozens of helicopters going over it every day with small arms and an old RPG?

 

They say "Yeah, we got a guy shooting, just behind that building". Also, is it usual for armed insurgents to casually mill about in open when there are American helicopters circling.

 

One of the most irritating thing about this whole outcry is that people seem to be almost under the impression that the pilots, like them, were watching this through a nice big laptop screen with nothing else to focus one. Watch it again with the video at normal Youtube size with your screen at an arm's reach, whilst bearing in mind that no one wants to have their name under the headline "armed terrorists allowed to wonder down street whilst being ignored by attack chopper pilots as they mistake Kalashnikov for camera".

 

Like I say, if they actually mistook cameras for guns then I can see their reasoning. However if I was about to gun down 8 people I'd want to make damn sure I was right.

 

The part I have much more of a problem with is the whole watching an injured guy dying and saying "come on buddy just pick up a gun" willing them so that you have an excuse to have another fun shooting round.

 

It's been seen that insurgents will collect weapons from sites of attacks on their forces, and it also means denying them a somewhat precious form of transport. Oh, and they, y'know, set up double bombs to injure people with one, then kill those who come to their aid with the second.

 

By the time they started shooting the van had picked up the injured guy and was reversing to leave the scene and as far I could see they made no attempt to look for weapons and went straight to the aid of the guy.

[MoogleViper]

This video really got me thinking

 

 

is there anything on the internet I won't masturbate to?

[ReZourceman]

Shit be fucked up. Sick video. Its not a game.

 

This video really got me thinking

 

 

is there anything on the internet I won't masturbate to?

 

Even I like a joke, but come on man.

 

 

 

Get it....come....