Charlie Posted July 25, 2010 Posted July 25, 2010 Edit. Right, before the haters hate, there was nothing wrong with what Ferrari just did. Eddie Jordan is 100% right. It was clearly team orders which are against the rules of Formula 1 and Ferrari should be punished for breaching the rules. From a team perspective it was correct decision but rules are rules and the decision went against the rules.
Platty Posted July 25, 2010 Posted July 25, 2010 LOL @ Alonso for the worst interview explanation going. My hate for Ferrari builds more every year.
D_prOdigy Posted July 25, 2010 Posted July 25, 2010 The awkwardness of that driver press conference summed it all up. There is really no defence for it when it's clear violation of a rule. As a spectator, I don't care about pragmatism. I want to see fair racing. Gave an already boring race a very bad taste.
Goron_3 Posted July 25, 2010 Posted July 25, 2010 Eddie Jordan is 100% right. It was clearly team orders which are against the rules of Formula 1 and Ferrari should be punished for breaching the rules. From a team perspective it was correct decision but rules are rules and the decision went against the rules. Mclaren have done it this season and got away with it ('Save fuel Lewis, save fuel') when trying to save a 1-2. Some other famous team order occasions over the last few years: Raikkonen Massa 2007 Massa Raikkonen 2008 Hamilton Kovalainen 2008 Vettel Webber 2010 Alonso Massa 2010 The only thing they have done wrong is made it obvious and not used code like Mclaren and Red Bull have this season. Team orders will always be in formula 1 because if for example, Massa won today, everyone would be saying how Ferrari just shot themselves in the foot when it comes to winning the title. Ferrari will always been looked at badly because it is Ferrari but Mclaren and Red Bull have used team orders a fair bit and there's no getting away from that, it's only an issue today because of how obvious Smedley made it.
Platty Posted July 25, 2010 Posted July 25, 2010 They are going to be investigated apparently. Good. Would love the points to be docked. How funny would that be.
Goron_3 Posted July 25, 2010 Posted July 25, 2010 They are going to be investigated apparently. Good. Would love the points to be docked. How funny would that be. They should get rid of Mclaren's points in Turkey in that case, and get rid of Lewis' 2008 title. They are being punished for not doing it as subtlely as other teams.
Platty Posted July 25, 2010 Posted July 25, 2010 They should get rid of Mclaren's points in Turkey in that case, and get rid of Lewis' 2008 title. They are being punished for not doing it as subtlely as other teams. Good. Works for me. I don't want to see this kind of behaviour in F1. Massa must be feeling like shit. Just hate how obvious it is. Let the drivers race. Ferrari's reply is that it was Massa's decision to let Alonso pass. Yeah alright. I suppose Massa will stick to that story too to stop the team getting in trouble.
Retro_Link Posted July 25, 2010 Author Posted July 25, 2010 (edited) My opinion... I don't agree with what Ferrari did today, and the worst part was how they all took us for stupid and tried to lie their way out of it. Team orders are fine when the other team driver is mathmatically out of the championship, because then the other driver is just happy to to do what's best for the team as it won't affect them either way... as was the case in '07 when Massa helped out Raikkonen in Brazil, and in China '08 when Kimi let Massa through to get more points... and it was the same in 2008 between Hamilton and Kovalainen. But to just blatently take away someones win like that!... I thought was extremely shameful tbh. If Alonso is legitimately faster, then he should be able to get by. But he knew he'd already fucked up his best chance of this, so got the team to help him out. He should be ashamed frankly... and by his reaction, I think he was perfectly aware what he'd done wasn't right. Massa's only two race wins away from being right back in it, and really at this stage of the season it would have made little difference to Alonso had he finished second! So Massa's season is just over is it! Rediculous!! Edited July 25, 2010 by Retro_Link
gaggle64 Posted July 25, 2010 Posted July 25, 2010 I just finished watching the race on iPlayer and I feel like I need to go rinse my mouth out. I haven't yet considered the full legal or sporting moral implications but I just can't understand what Ferrari stood to gain from it. They've still got half a season to go. If Massa had been allowed to take the win he'd be within a single victory of his teammate in the standings, and Ferrari would still have the 1-2. Instead they've essentially told one of their drivers they're not even interested in supporting him, risked a serious penalty and tarnished their own image as well as the sport, and for what? An additional 7 driver points? Is that worth it?
Platty Posted July 25, 2010 Posted July 25, 2010 So they have been fined 100,000 dollars for breaching the F1 sporting code but the result still stands.
Nicktendo Posted July 25, 2010 Posted July 25, 2010 All I can say is I feel a huge degree of sympathy for Felipe. I really do. Exactly one year after that horrific accident, I feel shameful after saying he hasn't been the same since, he put in a fantastic performance today... I can see why they did it, I don't agree with it but as mentioned both McLaren and Red Bull (attempted, lol) have done it this season, and it takes a very, very big man to accept what is best for the team before himself, kudos again to Felipe, a true gentlemen. At the end of the day Felipe was 0.497 secs off Alonso in qually, and we know how difficult it is to pass in modern F1. Yes it was a great start by Massa, he deserved the win, but the regulations prevented Alonso from showing his true potential. I think the only person that made an overtaking manoeuvre for position was De La Rosa on Hulkenburg. There are plenty of varying factors and it was very disappointing to not see Massa pick up the win on the anniversary of his crash but I really don't see him as a title contender this year now, so for the championship, as much as it pains me to say it, I guess it was the right decision. All Felipe can do now, is get his head down and consistently stick it to Alonso on the track, like he did to Raikkonen in 2008.
Retro_Link Posted July 25, 2010 Author Posted July 25, 2010 But if Alonso was consistantly faster, then why didn't he choose to get past Felipe at the pit stops? And sorry to put on my Raikkonen fanboy hat... but Ferrari developed the car away from Kimi in '08 (Ferrari & Schumi have admitted to that). But I don't dissagree that he Felipe also developed massively as a driver. Ferrari have massively fucked up here, they've alienated Smedley... he's been forced to out right lie to the press and go against his driver, and Massa now pretty much knows he's basically not gonna win a World Championship at Ferrari with Alonso there and has effectively just signed a new contract to be a no.2 driver. I think we can safely say the words Alonso and trouble go hand in hand!
Nicktendo Posted July 25, 2010 Posted July 25, 2010 I just realised, I have £20 on Massa to win the championship. Does that mean my bet is invalid if they are guilty of race-fixing? :p
Retro_Link Posted July 25, 2010 Author Posted July 25, 2010 haha, yeah they kept mentioning on the F1 forum, what about the people who put a bet on Massa to win today!
Nicktendo Posted July 25, 2010 Posted July 25, 2010 haha, yeah they kept mentioning on the F1 forum, what about the people who put a bet on Massa to win today! At least we have something to talk about after another Bahrain-esque race. The 2011 regulations can't come soon enough.
Retro_Link Posted July 25, 2010 Author Posted July 25, 2010 Yeah and unfortunately Hungary's rubbish aswell!... though at least it looks quite nice! Though after the 3 weeks break we have the epicness of Spa and Monza!!
Nicktendo Posted July 25, 2010 Posted July 25, 2010 Hungary will always be a personal favourite of mine. 1997 - Damon Hill takes the lead from Schumacher in an ARROWS!! :love::love: (Even if ITV did cut to a break when it actually happened... ) I think it will be an ok race, certainly no worse than this. What will be most interesting will be the reaction from Ferrari.
Retro_Link Posted July 25, 2010 Author Posted July 25, 2010 Yeah I actually quite like Hungary aswell, despite it's tendency to be processional. --- Anyone watch Top Gear tonight, they did a really nice 20min feature on Ayrton Senna! I'm really looking forward to the movie that's coming out next year (that they also mentioned on the GP today). Though I'm not quite sure why it was on Top Gear, because it took up 20 minutes and would have made a perfectly decent 30 minute show all of its own!
James Posted July 25, 2010 Posted July 25, 2010 Yeah I actually quite like Hungary aswell, despite it's tendency to be processional. --- Anyone watch Top Gear tonight, they did a really nice 20min feature on Ayrton Senna! I'm really looking forward to the movie that's coming out next year (that they also mentioned on the GP today). Though I'm not quite sure why it was on Top Gear, because it took up 20 minutes and would have made a perfectly decent 30 minute show all of its own! Yeah I saw it, was a great piece of film and no way did it feel like 20minutes to watch, great to see footage of him racing as I have never really appreciated how good he is, but he was reckless, the Alain Prost incident, but also a great human being, stopping his car to help out a fellow driver risking his own life.
Will Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 I'm glad Alsono won, he should go well in Hungary too and then he's right back in the mix. On the position switch I don't really see what choice Ferrari had, Massa has been nowhere all season while Alonso actually has a good shout at the title from here. They'd look pretty stupid if at the last race Alonso missed out by a couple of points. I think the whole team orders rule is stupid anyway, the team should be able to tell their drivers to do whatever they want them to. It's also only ever enforced when it's the lead of the race in question. If the Ferrari's had been 5th and 6th no one would mention this at all.
Emerald Emblem Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 (edited) Races should be won and lost on track, not the pit wall. Simple. If Alonso can't overtake his team mate through his own means, then he doesn't deserve to win that Grand prix. Edited July 26, 2010 by Emerald Emblem
Goron_3 Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 Races should be won and lost on track, not the pit wall. Simple. If Alonso can't overtake his team mate through his own means, then he doesn't deserve to win that Grand prix. Well Vettel did try and take Alonso off at the first corner. The fact that Alonso was under a second behind Massa and was able to set those lap times in all that dirty air shows just how much faster he was. It's not as simple as 'if he was faster he shouldve overtaken', as we all know how unless you are around 2 seconds a lap quicker than someone you will struggle to make a move cos of the wake. Andrew Benson's blog on the BBC sums it up perfectly. Like most professionals and unlike most of the media he actually see's very little wrong in it, the only question behind it is 'was it necessary', and to me it was (Massa is awfully slow on hard tyres, he has no chance of the title'). Here are some quotes from the blog: From a technical standpoint: Ferrari did not order Massa to let Alonso win, not in so many words. Alonso has been Ferrari's stronger driver all year and is clearly the only one who has a chance of the championship. This - unlike the situation between the two Red Bull drivers at Silverstone - is not an example of two evenly matched drivers in one team battling it out for the title and the team making a call that potentially disadvantages one of them. But the reality of F1 is as David Coulthard described it after the race on Sunday: "Every team in this pit lane gives team orders and anyone who says they don't is lying." F1 is a team sport; teams constantly manipulate races. Having a rule banning team orders doesn't mean they don't happen, it simply means teams have to find duplicitous ways of employing them. Equally, I don't see the logic of an argument that says Ferrari should be penalised for this incident but teams and drivers should not have been punished for similar situations in the past. I find it crazy how the media is blowing this out.
Retro_Link Posted July 26, 2010 Author Posted July 26, 2010 Well Vettel did try and take Alonso off at the first corner. The fact that Alonso was under a second behind Massa and was able to set those lap times in all that dirty air shows just how much faster he was. It's not as simple as 'if he was faster he shouldve overtaken', as we all know how unless you are around 2 seconds a lap quicker than someone you will struggle to make a move cos of the wake.If Alonso knew he was consistantly quicker than Massa ALL wekend be could have either opted to stay out longer and overtaken Massa in the pits, or he could have made damn sure he took his chances when Massa was struggling to heat the tyres up, because he had them and blew them... thus cried help. From a technical standpoint: Ferrari did not order Massa to let Alonso win, not in so many words. Alonso has been Ferrari's stronger driver all year and is clearly the only one who has a chance of the championship. This - unlike the situation between the two Red Bull drivers at Silverstone - is not an example of two evenly matched drivers in one team battling it out for the title and the team making a call that potentially disadvantages one of them. But the reality of F1 is as David Coulthard described it after the race on Sunday: "Every team in this pit lane gives team orders and anyone who says they don't is lying." F1 is a team sport; teams constantly manipulate races. Having a rule banning team orders doesn't mean they don't happen, it simply means teams have to find duplicitous ways of employing them. Equally, I don't see the logic of an argument that says Ferrari should be penalised for this incident but teams and drivers should not have been punished for similar situations in the past. I find it crazy how the media is blowing this out - Well yeah, it was either 'understand this order' or risk loosing your seat! - Yes he's been the stronger of the two. But there are still hundreds of points up for grabs, and if this weekend tells us anything it's that Massa has gone a long way to getting over his tyre problems and is ready to start fighting back. - Same as above. - True, but it only largely tends to happen towards the end of the season when the teams have to make a choice for their 1 chance to win. - To quote Nick Fry: "Personally I think the show is the most important thing," he said. "I heard David Coulthard talk about the history and the fact there always were team orders, but I think times have changed. "This is sport and the fans out there want to see the drivers fighting. While the teams think it is a teams' championship, most of the fans - possibly with the exception of Ferrari - support the drivers who happen to drive for a team. "I think we have to let them fight it out and only intervene if it is getting out of hand, and they are knocking each other off." - It's different doing it mid way during the season. At the later stage of a championship I think the fans appreciate team mates helping one another out for a shot at the title... and I'd say team mate are happy to do so! - True.
Goron_3 Posted July 26, 2010 Posted July 26, 2010 It's late enough in the championship now as it is, Fernando has had bad luck already and if he wants any chance at winning the title he needs every point. He's in a similar situation that Kimi was in back in 2007. Also, Massa will not fix his tyre problems. Just as Kimi couldn't get around the car set up in 2008; it's an inherent style in his driving and he will always struggle until we get Pirelli next season. Also, ofc Nick Fry is going to say that look where his team finished! James Allen just put up a great piece about it on his blog, basically summing it up with 'they broke the rules, but everyone does'. They are being punished for not doing it less obviously which is pretty dumb. He suggests that FOTA might get behind Ferrari to lift the ban.
Retro_Link Posted July 26, 2010 Author Posted July 26, 2010 I'd say Fernando's mistakes have far outweighed any bad luck he's had this season. Hmm... Yes Alonso is Ferrari's best chance at the title... at the moment and has looked the better driver all season! But to write Massa off just over halfway through the season is extremelely harsh IMO! Ferrari might aswell just go back to a one driver policy and write Felipe off from the start of each season! No driver has really pulled away in the championship all year, everyones having trouble and sharing the wins. Massa is only two race wins behind being back up there. Kimi was effecively two race behind with two races remaining and he won the title! Massa has 7 races left! - Possibly, though both Fernando & Kimi managed to get over their tyre problems by mid '07. - And no one can deny team orders exist... but at this stage of a championship? If the ban is lifted we'll just see race orders being decided from the pit wall a lot more often, and personally as someone who's ALOT more interested in watching the drivers race, than the teams (as I think is the case with the majority of fans), I'd be pretty dissapointed.
Recommended Posts