killer kirby Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Religion is a very sad thing, and it makes me all the more sad when I see Christians talking bad about another group of people. I see pastors and the people who are workers of church having nice cars and really expensive suits while also having an easy life etc etc... I became a Christian because it was more of a way to get out of the deep hole I was in, since I became one I have had so much more confidence in myself, got more friends and has helped me know what I want in life which I am striving for. Perhaps people who are in religion need to stop thinking about themselves and instead of fighting, help the people that really need helping. A lot of the posts on here basically sum up what I feel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The fish Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 As to our right to bear arms, that was placed into the Bill of Rights, to grant citizens the right to defend themselves against the British during the war. While it's true that the Second Amendment doesn't have nearly as much reason behind today, American citizens are not quick on giving up freedoms they currently have. Most states it's illegal to have a concealed weapon knife or gun, some states need a permit to do so but it's legal. Problem with Crime is it's not immediately apparent to anyone whether or not a suspect is carrying a concealed weapon, and the police can't just stop everyone in town to check them for weapons. Even if it became completely illegal for the public to own guns, criminals would still get them and use them. That leaves the public defenseless, of course you don't often hear about people holding robbers at gunpoint. The Second Amendment was designed to allow the formation of militias, not for Joe Average to carry a hand cannon with relative impunity. In the UK, firearms are banned (for the most part), and although criminals still get them, both shootings and stick-ups with firearms are pretty damn rare. Whilst a knife will often be used as a substitute, there is a massive, massive difference between the two - a knife is only really as useful as the users reach, a pistol, even in the hands of some 2-bit punk-arse chav, is dangerous at any distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shorty Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Religions are just what we all came up with to make us feel better about the fact we're all going to die. It's ironic that we've fought wars for years over something which neither side has any solid proof even exists. Religion isn't evil, at its heart it's just a naive and childish story that started with inexplicable 'magics' like lightning storms, the moon and the sound a shell makes when you put your ear up to it. It's the people that blindly believe in these things and lay out their sanctimonious nonsense with fists and guns that are evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 The Second Amendment was designed to allow the formation of militias, not for Joe Average to carry a hand cannon with relative impunity. In the UK, firearms are banned (for the most part), and although criminals still get them, both shootings and stick-ups with firearms are pretty damn rare. Whilst a knife will often be used as a substitute, there is a massive, massive difference between the two - a knife is only really as useful as the users reach, a pistol, even in the hands of some 2-bit punk-arse chav, is dangerous at any distance. I believe I said very similar statements Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayseven Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 The Second Amendment was designed to allow the formation of militias, not for Joe Average to carry a hand cannon with relative impunity. In the UK, firearms are banned (for the most part), and although criminals still get them, both shootings and stick-ups with firearms are pretty damn rare. Whilst a knife will often be used as a substitute, there is a massive, massive difference between the two - a knife is only really as useful as the users reach, a pistol, even in the hands of some 2-bit punk-arse chav, is dangerous at any distance. I was under teh impression that by allowing everyone the fairness of access to the most powerful weapons at the time, no one person or force would be able to impose their way upon others, which is why there's hypocracy with the US and WMD's, if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navarre Posted September 4, 2009 Author Share Posted September 4, 2009 The same Jesus that could walk on water, heal blind people and was the son of god? No valid response to my earlier points, or just irrelevant digs at religion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyxis Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 No valid response to my earlier points, or just irrelevant digs at religion? How was that sentence irrelevant? I can't take what Jesus believed seriously because apparently he could walk on water, heal the blind and do all manner of things that have never happened outside of a fictional story. Christianity is not unique and Jesus was not unique. I could name lots of fictional characters or fictional characters that were based on real people that had super powers and/or came from Heaven, but any normal person would need a mental breakdown before they believed any of that stuff. Why take the political agendas of story book characters seriously? We all get brainwashed by the media into believing the sensationalist junk that they feed us. A lot of the things we believe in have been put there by other people and we simply don't question what we think we know. We are all guilty of what we are bashing here. The same people who are frustrated by religious people are the ones who think that fish have 3 second memory spans. Let's all get frustrated and pile on the paragraphs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haden Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Religions are just what we all came up with to make us feel better about the fact we're all going to die. It's ironic that we've fought wars for years over something which neither side has any solid proof even exists. Religion isn't evil, at its heart it's just a naive and childish story that started with inexplicable 'magics' like lightning storms, the moon and the sound a shell makes when you put your ear up to it. It's the people that blindly believe in these things and lay out their sanctimonious nonsense with fists and guns that are evil. While I disagree with you on both points the first point isn't what this thread is about. The second point I am going to tackle you on. No No and No again. Read the history of the Holy Roman Empire in the 16th century. Reformation in full flow Princes sided themsleves on religious sides for political reasons. My neighbour turns Catholic but my friend is Protestant so guess which side I will be on! I find your first comment disagreeable but your second simply anti factual from a historical point of view. Your conclusion about people that believe in religion is ridiculous though and again who are you to say what is evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paj! Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Your conclusion about people that believe in religion is ridiculous though and again who are you to say what is evil. Who are the writers of the bible to say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The fish Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Who are the writers of the bible to say? Indeed. Anyone can have their own opinion on what is evil or not, and as it is a personal opinion on morality, no one's opinion is more or less valid than anyone else's. There is no ultimate moral authority. Pretty much all the one's put forward so far are evil bastards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mundi Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 These topics go in circles, the fact that the subject of religion pops up every few weeks and it seems like the same people are arguing with the same arguments shows that no one is convincing anyone here. And I think it's unfortunate/disturbing that America embraced guns. It's only cause harm. "WE HAVE A RIGHT TO PROTECT OUR HOME!" - It would be easier if criminals didn't have guns... The problem is that when you have a person already illegally breaking into your home I doubt he´s gonna draw the line for breaking the law at owning illegal weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haden Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Who are the writers of the bible to say? I tend to not like comments like that because I don't believe objective moral authority is accessible without a higher power. It has come from reading tons of CS Lewis and I probably should have not posted that comment as it is for a different thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 The problem is that when you have a person already illegally breaking into your home I doubt he´s gonna draw the line for breaking the law at owning illegal weapons. Still, it's interesting to see how gun violence is much worse in the USA than many other places. I'm not saying this is strictly because of the Second Amendment, but both points are expressions of a completely different mentality when it comes to guns. Guns are simply much more common and everyday over there, and so it's natural that more people own them and more criminals carry them. I think a lot of smaller criminals in for example Denmark would never dream of carrying a gun, even during the crime, as it's simply something very alien to most Danes. This also means, unfortunately, that simply changing the gun laws in the US won't solve the problems, as it won't change the mentality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paj! Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 I tend to not like comments like that because I don't believe objective moral authority is accessible without a higher power. It has come from reading tons of CS Lewis and I probably should have not posted that comment as it is for a different thread. Wait...so people who don't believe in a higher power will never be in possession of "objective moral authority"? But you are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platty Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Is Religion Evil? I do not think so. I remember in an R.E. lesson in the past where my teacher was talking about how people's perceptions of God were in the past. I can't remember the Philosopher's names or any names in particular, but she did say something that I remember quite well. She said that "when you look at a watch, you know that it is complex and that it has/had a maker. So, when you look at the world around you, then there must be a maker for this." These weren't her words, but she was quoting someone else. It was an excellent point, and it does symbolise what I feel about there being something out there. I remember my RE teachers telling us something similar to that then the next lesson would be Science where we would learn about the big bang theory and how the planets were formed. Confused little school kids we were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mundi Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Still, it's interesting to see how gun violence is much worse in the USA than many other places. I'm not saying this is strictly because of the Second Amendment, but both points are expressions of a completely different mentality when it comes to guns. Guns are simply much more common and everyday over there, and so it's natural that more people own them and more criminals carry them. I think a lot of smaller criminals in for example Denmark would never dream of carrying a gun, even during the crime, as it's simply something very alien to most Danes. This also means, unfortunately, that simply changing the gun laws in the US won't solve the problems, as it won't change the mentality. Yeah it has a lot to do with people´s mentality and reasons for breaking the law, I think the lowering crime rate is more subject to why they commit the crime not with what. Also, since I heard about the botched gold robbery in Denmark I will never be able to take a Dane with a gun seriously Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haden Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Wait...so people who don't believe in a higher power will never be in possession of "objective moral authority"? But you are? Hmm no its more the state of play. If there isn't a god then my belief system is just a pure random historical development mixed with my own personality traits just like everyone elses, if any religion is true then its moral code is also true for everyone not just its believers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The fish Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Hmm no its more the state of play. If there isn't a god then my belief system is just a pure random historical development mixed with my own personality traits just like everyone elses, if any religion is true then its moral code is also true for everyone not just its believers. That sounds worrying like Pascal's Wager too me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayseven Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Still, it's interesting to see how gun violence is much worse in the USA than many other places. I'm not saying this is strictly because of the Second Amendment, but both points are expressions of a completely different mentality when it comes to guns. Guns are simply much more common and everyday over there, and so it's natural that more people own them and more criminals carry them. I think a lot of smaller criminals in for example Denmark would never dream of carrying a gun, even during the crime, as it's simply something very alien to most Danes. This also means, unfortunately, that simply changing the gun laws in the US won't solve the problems, as it won't change the mentality. It's kinda off-topic, but I think the gun crime problem in the US is more to do with education and the class divide rather than just that there are more guns. Other countries in the world may have similar gun crime levels but a lower report rate. Gun crime covers robberies and rape as well as murder - things which the criminal is potentially likely to have done with a gun or not. My point is that it's not the guns that kill people (as we've all been sorta saying), it is culture and social oppression. So I guess my point is I sorta agree - it's a mental thing? Useless post this is, then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoogleViper Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Useless post this is, then! At least you're consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paj! Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Hmm no its more the state of play. If there isn't a god then my belief system is just a pure random historical development mixed with my own personality traits just like everyone elses, if any religion is true then its moral code is also true for everyone not just its believers. I'm only half getting what you're saying. I think/know I have a perfectly fine moral code in general, and I'm not religious. The non-religious aren't running around not knowing right from wrong. That's not quite what you're saying, but I'm still unsure what you ARE saying. Other than what fish suggested, a "may as well" attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haden Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 (edited) Well no I am just saying there is only one reality in this world my point has nothing to do with Pascals wager. I am just saying as the fish already said without a creator of moral laws their are no objective ones. There are common things that most of us have been disgusted at, but we should be aware they have been changed and shaped by developments in history. Edited September 5, 2009 by Haden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navarre Posted September 5, 2009 Author Share Posted September 5, 2009 Religion isn't evil, at its heart it's just a naive and childish story that started with inexplicable 'magics' like lightning storms, the moon and the sound a shell makes when you put your ear up to it. It's the people that blindly believe in these things and lay out their sanctimonious nonsense with fists and guns that are evil. Why do people assume theists follow their faith 'blindly'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Yeah it has a lot to do with people´s mentality and reasons for breaking the law, I think the lowering crime rate is more subject to why they commit the crime not with what. Also, since I heard about the botched gold robbery in Denmark I will never be able to take a Dane with a gun seriously Ah, I'm not exactly sure what gold robbery you're referring to? It's kinda off-topic, but I think the gun crime problem in the US is more to do with education and the class divide rather than just that there are more guns. Other countries in the world may have similar gun crime levels but a lower report rate. Gun crime covers robberies and rape as well as murder - things which the criminal is potentially likely to have done with a gun or not. My point is that it's not the guns that kill people (as we've all been sorta saying), it is culture and social oppression. So I guess my point is I sorta agree - it's a mental thing? Useless post this is, then! Um, that post seems a little ... unfocused? But yeah, the general point I get from it is that it's the mentality behind it. Which I agree with. I don't think the gun laws are the cause of the large amount of gun crimes, instead I think they're both results of the general mentality in the US. The very liberalistic and capitalistic mentality of many Americans have created great social divides and a culture more competitive and "hostile" by nature. But we're really derailing the thread here. If you wish to discuss it further, perhaps we should have the thread split into two? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shorty Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 (edited) Why do people assume theists follow their faith 'blindly'?Because that's what following something you cannot even prove is there looks like from the outside... isn't that what faith is, anyway? To believe in something without needing to see it or feel it, just feeling like you 'know' something is true, that's faith. Hence 'blindly'. I find your first comment disagreeable but your second simply anti factual from a historical point of view.To be frank I find history painfully dull so... I wouldn't know about those things. I wasn't really trying to base arguments in timeless fact, simply pointing out that people who fight wars for their religious beliefs just make my mind spin. Edited September 5, 2009 by Shorty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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