Kirkatronics Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 Some are gruesome, but they dont last forever. Just a very long time, i think id prefer these to eternal damn nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iun Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 Theologians recently proved that this reality, and all who are in it, are nothing but a product of my imagination. Wish I had a better imagination, to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayseven Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 I just want to say that, while nobody reacted how he thought they would, I think Arab_Freak posted very bravely (for a change :P) I don't believe in teh christian god, but I do belive that the vaaaast majority of people who sling around generalisations about church, religion, christianity and God have never actually read the fucking bible, so while their comments on zealots are, from a moral and social standpoint, entirely appropriate, their comments on the bible are usually unfounded and ill-researched, and as such they tend to make me groan. There is such a danger for non-religious people to instantly dismiss all religious/christian people simply because of a few bad eggs, and in general posts on this forum about this topic make me cringe with the narrow mindedness. To me, being broad minded is being able to see where they are coming from, to be able to see why they believe what they do before one dismisses it completely. Discussing God is pointless because the people who believe in him, well, to put it simply, they believe in supernatural entities. So it's completely pointless/useless to discuss God unless both involved parties agree or enjoy talking to brick walls (which works both ways). Now, one could insist upon discussing religions... in which case, there's only one which I respect and would even consider (I'm atheist), which is Buddhism (the Zen variant). I agree that discussing God is futile, but I disagree about the tone that you've applied to your statement that "people who believe in him believe in supernatural entities". By saying god is pointless you are saying that everything supernatural is pointless, and I don't think that the two terms are mutually exclusive at all. You would have to define supernatural, 'pointful', and belief before I could ever agree to that sentient. In all honesty? You are a respected member here with an opinion usually worth listening to, but this has to be one of your worst posts I've ever seen. That other members have lapped it up so quickly is shameful. While I will admit to believing that christianity, and pretty much all established religions are pretty much little more than vast cults, I will not dismiss a person's spirituaity as simply being a childish wonderment, which, I believe, is the attribute you wish to cast upon those who believe in the supernatural. But then, philosophy is something people struggle with, so I understand if you can't accept the whole point; we do not know the correct answer, so all answers are worth listening to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxigen_Waste Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 I agree that discussing God is futile, but I disagree about the tone that you've applied to your statement that "people who believe in him believe in supernatural entities". By saying god is pointless you are saying that everything supernatural is pointless, and I don't think that the two terms are mutually exclusive at all. You would have to define supernatural, 'pointful', and belief before I could ever agree to that sentient. In all honesty? You are a respected member here with an opinion usually worth listening to, but this has to be one of your worst posts I've ever seen. That other members have lapped it up so quickly is shameful. Ouch! kitty can scratch! But in a simple sentence, I think you read too much into my post. Let's face it, we're mostly atheists and agnostics here, and I simply presented my statement from a majority point of view (how democratic of me). If we were mostly religious folk, I'd probably have said "people who don't believe in him don't believe in supernatural entities". (How's this for going nowhere?) I'll rephrase: I'm not demeaning the fact that some people embrace different sets of beliefs, what I'm saying is, all of us atheist/agnostics will be approaching this discussion from the same overall mindset, which is mostly one bound by logic, whilst religious types will base their approach on a more theological and ideological (I'm trying not to say spiritual here, but that's ultimately what I mean) mindset. Thus rendering the clash of the two useless, as they pretty much neutralize each other. Which is why I think discussing God is ultimately pointless unless both participants agree. But since you sparked such a discussion about the supernatural, here are my two cents on the matter: supernatural entities (in every sense of the word) are very much real, however they only become real or relevant to us once we choose to acknowledge their existence, thus meaning that we're the ones who are shifting these entities into gear. Much like the "soul", it's a part of one's reality which only exists as long as one allows it to. Me, I'm skeptic by nature, so I'll never be affected by these entities (or energies, in some cases), but inside my grandma's world, I know for a fact that God exists. There is no such thing as universal truth when it comes to subjective matters, precisely because "reality" is a concept which varies from one individual to the next. As for my ego's opinion: fairytales and crutches for those who can't cope with the harsh reality that we're all completely meaningless and universally irrelevant. Someone to blame, thank and obey while you fantasize about purpose. Existentialism, don't you just love it? And now I can't stop my common sense from arguing with my ego. This is gonna be a long night... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted April 24, 2009 Share Posted April 24, 2009 I'm so very tempted to join this debate ... but I won't. I just wish to express that I find the last two posts by gentlemen Jay and Oxigen very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayseven Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 I wrote a big post and lost it. general points; spirituality and logic are the key opposing forces. Nigerians have never seen snow, yet it exists. We are a tiny planet in a ginormous universe. The soul is, like god, just a word to define an entity that is different to each of us. Pandering to the majority is something I did not expect O_W to ever do, and maybe it's my own spirituality, but that act is not very apropos. It is sad that religion has driven out individuallly-acclaimed spirituality by making the laymen's understanding of God so entwined with christianty/whatever.. this makes no sense. What was teh other point? Probably just something about most people having not read the bible, again. Sigh. Will sleep in a few hours and hopefully have another go at this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haden Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 I disagree about the mindset thing you said OW but its almost word games. I have logic and always try to use it my fave theologian cs lewis was the master of logic and became a christian after being an atheist. I think there is to much division here everyone is able to participate in this debate. Whatever the truth is its true for everyone so everyone has the ability to discuss beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoogleViper Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 I don't get people that try to convert people. If you don't believe in something then how can you just start believing like that? I mean I could understand if they'd never heard of the religion before, but come on, in this society is that even possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris the great Posted April 25, 2009 Share Posted April 25, 2009 i dont like people trying to convert me, it implies they are some how smarter then me. also, im a lover of arguments, i can poke holes in peoples theorys if they are flimsy. for example, two old guys came to my house and started saying about the path to paradise, i asked him what paradise was like, he told me and i said that wouldent be paradise for me, and that all people have an individual view of paradise, so how can it exist if its so open to interpritation. he said nothing. thats how i role, try and convert me, i try and convert you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkatronics Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 i dont like people trying to convert me, it implies they are some how smarter then me. also, im a lover of arguments, i can poke holes in peoples theorys if they are flimsy. for example, two old guys came to my house and started saying about the path to paradise, i asked him what paradise was like, he told me and i said that wouldent be paradise for me, and that all people have an individual view of paradise, so how can it exist if its so open to interpritation. he said nothing. thats how i role, try and convert me, i try and convert you. Thats true, some peoples paradises may be others hell. Like if you have to live in a theme park for eternity, for some it would be paradise, other hell. Personally i believe there had to be some thing that has always just been there,i cant understand how there was once nothing. Wether it was a god, superior being, or some other powerful entity i believe there had to be something. I dont believe in heaven or hell, or not the christian ones anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 Thats true, some peoples paradises may be others hell.Like if you have to live in a theme park for eternity, for some it would be paradise, other hell. Personally i believe there had to be some thing that has always just been there,i cant understand how there was once nothing. Wether it was a god, superior being, or some other powerful entity i believe there had to be something. I dont believe in heaven or hell, or not the christian ones anyway. Gah ... I promised myself I wouldn't get into this ... but so far this has actually been kept a sober debate, so what the heck ... I understand how warandchaos feels. It's about the same way I feel. I don't believe in any one religion according to scripture, and I'm a scientific mind to the core. But I find it hard to believe or accept that there's not some deeper, spiritual meaning to things. Whether it's a god, some universal truth, a spiritual world or omnipresent life force, I do not know - nor does it matter much to me. I've found that I should focus on living my life in the present. When I get old, and death closes in on me, I'll probably begin thinking more about it, but as things are, I feel safe in hoping and believing that there's something more out there. It gives me a sense of purpose and greater meaning behind it all, and I guess that's what all religions try to do. I have a belief in unity of truth - that all religions hold some form of truth, or simply different versions of it - and that some day science will solve the mysteries of life once and for all. At least that's what I like to believe. I know some people will call me stupid and ignorant for believing in these kinds of things without proof. But I like to keep an open mind, and it gives me purpose. I've taken the good things from different religions (love, forgiveness, and the greater good) and dropped the bad things (fear, manipulation, and control). It's a win-win situation, so to speak. I'm not really interested in discussing these things. Faith is something personal, I believe, and it is up to every one of us to find out what we want to believe in. I've made up my mind, and I'm happy about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkatronics Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 Gah ... I promised myself I wouldn't get into this ... but so far this has actually been kept a sober debate, so what the heck ... I understand how warandchaos feels. It's about the same way I feel. I don't believe in any one religion according to scripture, and I'm a scientific mind to the core. But I find it hard to believe or accept that there's not some deeper, spiritual meaning to things. Whether it's a god, some universal truth, a spiritual world or omnipresent life force, I do not know - nor does it matter much to me. I've found that I should focus on living my life in the present. When I get old, and death closes in on me, I'll probably begin thinking more about it, but as things are, I feel safe in hoping and believing that there's something more out there. It gives me a sense of purpose and greater meaning behind it all, and I guess that's what all religions try to do. I have a belief in unity of truth - that all religions hold some form of truth, or simply different versions of it - and that some day science will solve the mysteries of life once and for all. At least that's what I like to believe. I know some people will call me stupid and ignorant for believing in these kinds of things without proof. But I like to keep an open mind, and it gives me purpose. I've taken the good things from different religions (love, forgiveness, and the greater good) and dropped the bad things (fear, manipulation, and control). It's a win-win situation, so to speak. I'm not really interested in discussing these things. Faith is something personal, I believe, and it is up to every one of us to find out what we want to believe in. I've made up my mind, and I'm happy about it. I know what you mean, but most scietific things arent proven. Science is theory, so is religeon in a way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The fish Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 (edited) Thats true, some peoples paradises may be others hell.Like if you have to live in a theme park for eternity, for some it would be paradise, other hell. Personally i believe there had to be some thing that has always just been there,i cant understand how there was once nothing. None of the current theories suggest there was nothing. Some, for example, suggest there were only things in higher dimensions, but not the 3rd. Something caused a higher dimension to collapse, and fall into ours, thus causing the singularity that caused the big bang. I think it's safe to say that everyone on here can agree on one thing: YEC's and Scientologists are probably wrong. Edited April 26, 2009 by The fish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 I know what you mean, but most scietific things arent proven.Science is theory, so is religeon in a way. As I said, I'm not here to discuss religion and science. I could easily begin to argue that statement of yours, but I won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The fish Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 Science is theory, so is religeon in a way. Not quite right: from a scientific standpoint, science is a theory, religion are hypotheses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkatronics Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 Not quite right: from a scientific standpoint, science is a theory, religion are hypotheses. Whats the difference? None of the current theories suggest there was nothing. Some, for example, suggest there were only things in higher dimensions, but not the 3rd. Something caused a higher dimension to collapse, and fall into ours, thus causing the singularity that caused the big bang. I think it's safe to say that everyone on here can agree on one thing: YEC's and Scientologists are probably wrong. Thats the most interesting way ive ever heard it put, i dont know why but im intrigued now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The fish Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 Whats the difference? A theory (in science, not layman's terms) is an idea backed up by scientific research and evidence - it is generally a synonym for a scientific law. This is a mistake often made by Creationists - for example, germ theory or the theory of gravity (or the most misunderstood, evolution) is no less valid in scientific eyes than Charles' Law or the laws of thermodynamics. A hypothesis is simply an untested/unsupported idea - it's the starting point for all science, but without evidence, it doesn't get anywhere. Thats the most interesting way ive ever heard it put, i dont know why but im intrigued now. I would go into more detail now, but I have revision to be doing. I recommend The Never Ending Days Of Being Dead, by Marcus Chown. It contains, amongst other things, a rather good account of all the current, prominent theories about the origin of our current universe (I use the word theory as they are mainly theories, but none are really more supported than the others). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirkatronics Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 A theory (in science, not layman's terms) is an idea backed up by scientific research and evidence - it is generally a synonym for a scientific law. This is a mistake often made by Creationists - for example, germ theory or the theory of gravity (or the most misunderstood, evolution) is no less valid in scientific eyes than Charles' Law or the laws of thermodynamics. A hypothesis is simply an untested/unsupported idea - it's the starting point for all science, but without evidence, it doesn't get anywhere. I would go into more detail now, but I have revision to be doing. I recommend The Never Ending Days Of Being Dead, by Marcus Chown. It contains, amongst other things, a rather good account of all the current, prominent theories about the origin of our current universe (I use the word theory as they are mainly theories, but none are really more supported than the others). Oh, thanks. I might look that upif im ever in the library. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxigen_Waste Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 I believe time is like space: infinite. And therefore, there was no "beginning", time, along with space, has always existed infinitelly. But aren't we getting off topic here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paj! Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 When people say "I find it hard to believe there is nothing..." and so they vaguely do believe in "something", it annoys me. I find it hard to beieve there is nothing, but I do. It's terrifying. I hate it. I can't just sort of vaguely go "Oh...there's probably something there because it's incomprehensible otherwise". That's right, it is incomprehensible, and it's fucking terrifying beyond belief, but who says we're meant to know everything? Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxigen_Waste Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 That's right, it is incomprehensible, and it's fucking terrifying beyond belief, but who says we're meant to know everything? Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's not true. If you were a woman, I'd probably be proposing right about now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paj! Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 If you were a woman, I'd probably be proposing right about now. I'd probably accept as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoogleViper Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 I think it's safe to say that everyone on here can agree on one thing: YEC's and Scientologists are probably wrong. 1: What are YECs 2: I don't actually know anything about Scientology other than the celebs who are in it and that they don't agree with mental disabilities. I don't think most people do they just jump on the media bandwagon. Care to give me some brief info? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxigen_Waste Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 1: What are YECs 2: I don't actually know anything about Scientology other than the celebs who are in it and that they don't agree with mental disabilities. I don't think most people do they just jump on the media bandwagon. Care to give me some brief info? This is actually pretty accurate, if a little exaggerated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paj! Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 This is actually pretty accurate, if a little exaggerated. Hmm. *scores Scientology off religions he might respect* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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