Pookiablo Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 Hey y'all, Given the current situation in Gaza and all the other dreadful things in the world that are going on and the fact that some people were complaining that we don't have enough threads like the "How Was Your Day?" thread, I thought perhaps we should have a thread in which we can specifically discuss what's going on in the news and the world! If such a thread already exists (I've not been here that long after all!) then by all means, delete this! So, to kick-start some form of discussion, what are people's views of the whole Gaza situation? Does anyone have an idea on how we might finally resolve this burning issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daft Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I'm going on the national demo tomorrow. Here is an article from this weeks G2. Good read. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyxis Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Good luck to Israel. They shouldn't stop until its impossible for Hamas to fire rockets into their teritory and if this is what's needed, then so be it. I'm willing to turn a blind eye and let them sort this out once and for all because if Israel stops now, Hamas will continue firing rockets and killing innocent Israeli civilians. There's no point in saying that the current situation is unfair or inhumane, because Hamas and Iran want the entire Israeli population to be exterminated. The Israelis are fighting for their existence, while the Palaestinians have been given many chances to have their own state but can't resist attacking the Israelis, who can and have defeated everybody who has messed with them. They've even sunk a US Navy ship in the past. A good detailed news article: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNCndRPRq3gD95K9M600 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoogleViper Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Didn't we already have a thread like this? http://www.n-europe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22489 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mundi Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 This is going to end like every conflict in the Palestinian/Israel area, the other side taking revenge after the other side attacked in revenge after the other side took revenge and it goes on and on... Attacking so ruthlessly will just create more soldiers for the future to keep the conflict going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The fish Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Didn't we already have a thread like this? http://www.n-europe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22489 Fuck you. I think Israel's actions have been justified, but its methods have been too imprecise. Still, there aren't any alternative options that don't result in Hamas continuing to fire/allow the firing of rockets at Israeli civilians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pookiablo Posted January 10, 2009 Author Share Posted January 10, 2009 I'm looking forward to seeing what Daft says about that demo he's gone to! nice to see a bit of activism! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightwolf Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 As my dad quoted before when we walked past a protest ''Honestly, who cares?'' Why do I say that? Because there was literally 30 people protesting at that point and everybody else was too wrapped up wanting to shop and get out of the cold to join in anyway. If a peace settlement doesn't work and they continue to bomb children then i don't see what is going to work..too stubborn in their ways and being ridiculous! Like naughty children fighting! ''Oh but we didn't realise it was a UN building'' bollocks. Don't give us that crap, it has flags all over it. I'd quite like it to end, after all the only people who suffer are the ones sat in their homes not wanting to fight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesley Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Good luck to Israel. They shouldn't stop until its impossible for Hamas to fire rockets into their teritory and if this is what's needed, then so be it. I'm willing to turn a blind eye and let them sort this out once and for all because if Israel stops now, Hamas will continue firing rockets and killing innocent Israeli civilians. There's no point in saying that the current situation is unfair or inhumane, because Hamas and Iran want the entire Israeli population to be exterminated. The Israelis are fighting for their existence, while the Palaestinians have been given many chances to have their own state but can't resist attacking the Israelis, who can and have defeated everybody who has messed with them. They've even sunk a US Navy ship in the past. A good detailed news article: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNCndRPRq3gD95K9M600 Really? Good to them? Really? You're willing to turn a blind eye to a school full of innocent people being bombed because Hamas have attacked Israel? Wow. Nice. Eye for an eye and all for you then, eh? Israel aren't fighting for their survival, because Palestine aren't a threat to it. And you're making out Israel have just handed Palestine their own state - which isn't including their original boundaries. Jesus, it's fact that Israel have over-stepped their boundaries and then to act surprised that Palestine rise up against them isn't exactly surprising. I'm not supporting the rocket fire coming from Palestine, but maybe instead of using Israeli tactics of "Let's destroy all those who oppose us." they should try and resolve why the rocket fire is coming in the first place. There's a difference between defending your country and attacking another. You seriously sound proud at the end that they sank a US Navy ship - why? Why do you sound proud of that? This situation makes me sick and ashamed of our government. The fact that we're unwilling to come out and fully condemn them is sicking and two-faced when considering our policies with other countries. This kind of tactic from Israel, killing innocent people and raping a nation will only further create tension from the Arab states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The fish Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 ''Oh but we didn't realise it was a UN building'' bollocks. Don't give us that crap, it has flags all over it. There's footage on LiveLeak of mortars being fired from within the school's grounds, apparently from about a month ago. Israel assembled a lit of targets which it appears to have prioritised and hit in that order. They have no way of gathering intelligence of greater accuracy at the moment. The strike is entirely regrettable, but its reasoning is understandable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightwolf Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 There's footage on LiveLeak of mortars being fired from within the school's grounds, apparently from about a month ago. Israel assembled a lit of targets which it appears to have prioritised and hit in that order. They have no way of gathering intelligence of greater accuracy at the moment. Unless I'm being silly, surely this UN building would have still been established a month ago? Unless it's a new UN building? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The fish Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 This situation makes me sick and ashamed of our government. The fact that we're unwilling to come out and fully condemn them is sicking and two-faced when considering our policies with other countries Ok, this confuses me a little. You like our government to condemn Russia for using the Georgians' conflict with internal rebels as an excuse to cripple Georgia to a state in which it can't join NATO/EU, and you think they should do the same regarding a conflict which is entirely in self-defence. Unless I'm being silly, surely this UN building would have still been established a month ago? Unless it's a new UN building? It was a UN school back then, and it was being used by Hamas to fire on Israel. You seriously sound proud at the end that they sank a US Navy ship - why? Why do you sound proud of that? I think he's just demonstrating the lengths to which Israel will go to defend itself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DomJcg Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 See, the problem with this for other countries wanting to stop the conflict is that as will said, reasoning is understandable, no ones making a fuss (papers report the conflict, but don't comment on it) because as say.. Obama put it "if people were shooting rockets at my house i'd want to do something about it too" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyxis Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Really? Good to them? Really? You're willing to turn a blind eye to a school full of innocent people being bombed because Hamas have attacked Israel? Wow. Nice. Eye for an eye and all for you then, eh? This is mainly why I included a link to that news article: "The Israeli army had no immediate comment, but has repeatedly accused Hamas militants of using residential areas for cover. Earlier this week, an Israeli attack outside a U.N. school killed nearly 40 people. Both Israel and Palestinian witnesses said militants carried out an attack from the area moments earlier." The school was used as a base for militants just before it was hit and there are both Israelis and Palistinians that claim this. Why do you think they are going to use a school as a base to launch attacks from? They are using their own people as human shields against the Israelis and they know it. The fact that the school was hit was probably good for the militants, especially since it was a UN school, because it led to increased protest from the UN and the world media against the Israelis. This is how they work... They store their ammunition in mosques because if a mosque is bombed by Jews, it will anger the whole Islamic world. The US had a similar problem dealing with a mosque in Fallujah, Iraq that was being used by militants. Israel aren't fighting for their survival, because Palestine aren't a threat to it. And you're making out Israel have just handed Palestine their own state - which isn't including their original boundaries. I don't really know about the current state of the borders, but I know that a few years back, Israel did offer them 97% of 'Palestine', with the remaining 3% coming from Israeli land and they declined.. Isn't that just being a bit too picky? They were offered 100% at the end of the day but of course, they had the luxury to turn down the offer of peace. I really don't know enough to talk about this to be honest, but I know that they withdrew from the Gaza Strip just recently and got rid of some of their settlements there. The fact that Gaza and the West Bank fell into Israeli hands is the fault of the Arabs for trying to once again destroy them in the 6 day war, which involved 8 different countries ganging up on the Israelis. The land was the spoils of that war which Israel didn't start. Later on when Egypt and Israel were starting to get on, they even offered to give the Egyptions Gaza back, which was captured from them, but the Egyptians declined... Both bits of land were used as staging points for a war that those Arab countries started and lost. Jesus, it's fact that Israel have over-stepped their boundaries and then to act surprised that Palestine rise up against them isn't exactly surprising. That land was taken over and kept by neighbouring Arab countries. It seems like the Israelis are the only reason why they still exist and have a chance of making their own state. I'm not supporting the rocket fire coming from Palestine, but maybe instead of using Israeli tactics of "Let's destroy all those who oppose us." they should try and resolve why the rocket fire is coming in the first place. There's a difference between defending your country and attacking another. They withdrew their settlements and forces from Gaza and they are now firing rockets at Israeli civilians on a daily basis. The Israelis need to control their border now in order to stop them from getting rockets from Syria and Iran to use against Israeli civilians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slaggis Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Can someone explain the basic situation of the Gaza Strip for me? I ask numerous people, and seeing as they all differ in opinion, I have no idea what to believe. What are the facts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daft Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Anyone who thinks Israeli's response to Hamas is in any way appropriate is an idiot, plain and simple. The West are trying to promote democracy in the Middle East but they condemn Hamas even though they are democratically elected. Even though Israel has democracy they in no way try and promote it on the Arab side and has actually gone out of its way to undermine it. Israel has had a long history of collaboration with Arab regimes to suppress Palestinian nationalism. When Hamas was democratically elected Israel didn't acknowledge them and branded them as terrorists. Israel's occupation of the West Bank was about economic and political control and has left the economy completely under developed. Israel don't want to negotiate which isn't surprising considering the becking they get from the international community. Whatever the numbers, killing civilians is wrong. This rule applies to Israel as much as it does to Hamas, but Israel's entire record is one of unbridled and unremitting brutality towards the inhabitants of Gaza. Israel also maintained the blockade of Gaza after the ceasefire came into force which, in the view of the Hamas leaders, amounted to a violation of the agreement. During the ceasefire, Israel prevented any exports from leaving the strip in clear violation of a 2005 accord, leading to a sharp drop in employment opportunities. Officially, 49.1% of the population is unemployed. At the same time, Israel restricted drastically the number of trucks carrying food, fuel, cooking-gas canisters, spare parts for water and sanitation plants, and medical supplies to Gaza. It is difficult to see how starving and freezing the civilians of Gaza could protect the people on the Israeli side of the border. But even if it did, it would still be immoral, a form of collective punishment that is strictly forbidden by international humanitarian law. To show just how uneven this 'conflict' is, In the three years after the withdrawal from Gaza, 11 Israelis were killed by rocket fire. On the other hand, in 2005-7 alone, the IDF killed 1,290 Palestinians in Gaza, including 222 children. Of course Hamas aren't entirely innocent but Israel is ripping the country to pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyxis Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 The West are trying to promote democracy in the Middle East but they condemn Hamas even though they are democratically elected. Hamas are a globally recognised terrorist organisation and the attacks can be seen as an act of war anyway. It wasn't long ago when they were blowing up buses in Tel Aviv packed with Israeli civilians. We know how that feels here in Britain and the Israelis had to experience it all the time thanks to Hamas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daft Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I never said I approved of Hamas but Israel aren't in anyway different at the moment. They are a rogue state. They habitually violates international law, possess weapons of mass destruction and practice terrorism - the use of violence against civilians for political purposes. Israel don't want peace, they want to dominate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyxis Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 List of Hamas attacks on Israel: "The organization's first mass attack was a car bomb that blew up at a bus stop in Afula in April 1994, murdering 8 and wounding 51. Among the most horrific Hamas attacks were the following: * 22 people killed and 56 wounded in a suicide bombing attack on the No. 5 bus on Dizengoff St. in Tel Aviv, Oct. 1994 * 26 killed by suicide bomber on a #18 bus near the Jerusalem Central Bus Station, Feb. 1996 * 16 killed in the Mahane Yehuda open market in Jerusalem in a double suicide attack, July 1997 * 23 dead and 115 wounded when a Hamas suicide bomber blew himself up on a No. 2 bus line coming from the Western Wall in Jerusalem, August 2003 * 45 murdered within the space of five days in March 2002: a suicide Hamas terrorist blew himself up in a Haifa restaurant, killing 15, and another one did the same in the Park Hotel in in Netanya during a Passover Seder, murdering some 30 and wounding 144. The ten worst Oslo War Hamas attacks, in which a total of 186 were murdered, also included the following: * June 1, 2001 - Dolphinarium in Tel Aviv, 21 killed - mostly new-immigrant teenagers from the former Soviet Union * Aug. 9, 2001 - Sbarro's Pizzeria in Jerusalem, 15 killed, including the parents and three children of the Schijveschuurder family * Dec. 2, 2001 - Haifa bus, 15 killed * May 7, 2002 - Rishon Letzion hall, 16 killed * June 18, 2002 - #32 bus from Gilo, Jerusalem, 19 killed * March 5, 2003 - #37 bus in Haifa, 15 dead * June 11, 2003 - #14 bus, Jerusalem, 17 murdered" A full list of attacks since 2000 can be seen on the IMRA website. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/97378 Edit: Oops, sorry. The list was so long that it totally flooded this forum. The rest can be found on the above link. I never said I approved of Hamas but Israel aren't in anyway different at the moment. They are a rogue state. They habitually violates international law, possess weapons of mass destruction and practice terrorism - the use of violence against civilians for political purposes. Israel don't want peace, they want to dominate. Thankfully for Israel, they can dominate their neighbours very well. Edit: Sorry, I am known to always edit my posts!! BTW, I used to be 50/50 on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict years ago, but things have changed, like Hamas I suppose (Explosive belts being replaced by rockets, hehe). At the moment, it looks like Israel is doing the right thing, but that's just my opinion. A few years back, I would have said that both sides were as bad as eachother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daft Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 What do you expect when you try and coke a country to death? That's a real one sided spread of facts there. Thanks, israelnationalnews.com. They aren't just aiming at schools and transport links because of Hamas, they are doing it to destroy the countries infrastructure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The fish Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 Can someone explain the basic situation of the Gaza Strip for me? I ask numerous people, and seeing as they all differ in opinion, I have no idea what to believe. What are the facts? I was in the middle of typing one up, and my friend's just shown up... If no one does a timeline before I return from the pub, I'll right you one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slaggis Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 I was in the middle of typing one up, and my friend's just shown up... If no one does a timeline before I return from the pub, I'll right you one. Thanks Fish, I appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daft Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 The UN have said almost one third of victims killed in Gaza have been children. How anyone can support those actions is beyond me. Israel has also banned foreign journalists into the country because they want to control the flow of information. This isn't the first time that Israel have used the media to spin things. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/10/gaza-israel-media Israel has barred foreign journalists from entering Gaza since the start of the war, effectively pulling the blinds over events within the strip. But Palestinian analyst Ghassan Khatib says there is another factor at play in the overall media skew. "Even if the Palestinian side came up with proper messages, Hamas has been successfully labelled by Israel as a terrorist group and is portrayed in the western media in a manner similar to al-Qaida," he says. As a result, western audiences are more prepared to sympathise with Israel – because it fits the "us or them" binary to which post 9/11 ears are attuned. What reason would they have to restrict and control the spread of information if what they were doing was in any way just? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyxis Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 How was the rally Daft? It sounds as if it got violent. Protestors clashed with hundreds of riot police in central London as an anti-war demonstration turned violent. One officer was knocked unconscious and two others received facial injuries as the mood turned sour at what had been a mainly peaceful protest. A small group of protestors turned on mounted police and riot officers on foot, throwing missiles (was Hamas there?) and smashing windows in Kensington, close to the Israeli Embassy. A crash barrier set up to help control the crowds was hurled through the large windows of a Starbucks Coffee shop. Related Links Gaza: international plan to bring back Fatah Egypt to helps MEPs gain access to Gaza Israel rejects UN ceasefire call in Gaza Police were forced to charge at the group, mainly made up of young men, in an attempt to disperse them. But sticks, stones and shoes were thrown back before the crowds were brought under control I wonder what they were planning on doing to the Israeli Embassy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daft Posted January 10, 2009 Share Posted January 10, 2009 The missiles in question were shoes from what I hear. It was a reference to when Bush had that shoe chucked at him. And he dodged with his scary ninja reflexes. I could only stay until two sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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