Jav_NE

The Wrasslin' thread

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people weren't mad that Reigns didn't win it last year, they were mad that Batista did.

 

They're not pissed because Bryan didn't win, they're pissed because of the lame ass way every other potential winner was dispatched - Ziggler and Ambrose especially

 

then trying to get some of the Rock's popularity to rub off on Reigns just smacks of desperation as if they realise they've just got a guy who currently can't work the mic and has an extremely limited move set headlining their biggest event of the year

 

I have nothing against Reigns, but this push is just far too soon, there's several people who deserve it more

 

Do you really care about 'moveset'? Since when did that even become a thing? It's not a video game, wrestling isn't about 'movesets', or 'workrate' for that matter.

 

Also like predictability I find it another selective criticism, not only is the notion that Cena only has 5 moves a myth, but it doesn't matter, and if it did there are plenty of celebrated workers that probably had fewer trademark moves than Cena, or Reigns for that matter. What notable moves did Jake Roberts have? The DDT and the short arm clothesline. It's not about the moves.

 

Are the crowds just going to get pissy every time Bryan loses now?

 

 

 

Yes!Yes!Yes!

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Also like predictability I find it another selective criticism, not only is the notion that Cena only has 5 moves a myth, but it doesn't matter, and if it did there are plenty of celebrated workers that probably had fewer trademark moves than Cena, or Reigns for that matter. What notable moves did Jake Roberts have? The DDT and the short arm clothesline. It's not about the moves.

 

When complaining about "movesets", the actual complaint tends to be more about how obvious it is, when the wrestler does the same moves over and over. Cena was really bad about this back then, his matches were very formulaic.

 

Don't know much about Roman Reigns, but he does still seem a bit green. Headlining Wrestlemania might be too much for the guy right now, especially since he's only returned from injury recently.

 

I do like his actual moveset, though. Any "big guy" that actually seems to have energy can make a lot of moves look good.

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I was thinking about all that has happened over the Rumble and thought the following.

 

What if the plan is for Seth Rollins to cash in at Wrestlemania? Would people have been more annoyed if Bryan had the title taken away again like that than not being in it at all?

 

This way, Bryan can show he is back to ring strength with his neck and we then get a match with Bryan vs Rollins.

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I like Reigns so I'm glad he won but I thought Bryan would. Are the crowds just going to get pissy every time Bryan loses now?

 

 

 

Probably, they wanted Bryan to win it. The usual way with main event stars returning from injury at the Rumble (Edge, Triple H, John Cena etc) are for them to win the Rumble to re-establish themselves as main event stars. I guess this time around, WWE didn't want that to happen so went with Reigns (whom i'm also glad won the match)

 

 

people weren't mad that Reigns didn't win it last year, they were mad that Batista did.

 

They're not pissed because Bryan didn't win, they're pissed because of the lame ass way every other potential winner was dispatched - Ziggler and Ambrose especially

 

then trying to get some of the Rock's popularity to rub off on Reigns just smacks of desperation as if they realise they've just got a guy who currently can't work the mic and has an extremely limited move set headlining their biggest event of the year

 

I have nothing against Reigns, but this push is just far too soon, there's several people who deserve it more

 

Maybe, but this pushes the Authority into place as screwing the likes of Ambrose and Ziggler from winning (by using Kane and Big Show to virtually empty the ring). I can see a nice little story coming, maybe

 

Using The Rock to attempt to push Reigns after he double eliminated Kane and Sho (and Rusev (probably to make him look strong)) to get the crowd behind him. Bad move, they need to let Reigns have free reign (sorry) instead of having McMahon write his scripts.

 

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When complaining about "movesets", the actual complaint tends to be more about how obvious it is, when the wrestler does the same moves over and over. Cena was really bad about this back then, his matches were very formulaic.

 

Probably the more reason not to have a 'moveset'.

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I liked RR before he left the shield. He is just soooo bad on the mic. Like the worst. Seriously his promos suck. Beli dat.

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I liked RR before he left the shield. He is just soooo bad on the mic. Like the worst. Seriously his promos suck. Beli dat.

 

Whatever do you mean?

 

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Whatever do you mean?

 

 

I watched that yesterday, he is so bad on the mic. :laughing: Sounds a lot like The Rock though.

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Well, that was a bizarre card for the Rumble, Pre-Show tag match, first match is a tag match, second match is a tag match, divas match is a tag match.

 

Uso's... ugh... I can't like them for some reason.

 

The triple threat match was fucking awesome. Rollins really shining in that match. He's no doubt got big things ahead. Funny during the Shield days people, myself included seemed to think when the Shield broke up, he'd be the least memorable person. But he's doing really well. All 3 members are.

 

 

Rumble itself god i was wishing the Wyatts got back together, I thought it was going to happen. Speaking of Wyatt's Bray was awesome in this years rumble. But the Mic parts... not quite as good as when Punk was doing it.

 

Rusev, I don't care if he's Russian heel, he is fucking awesome and it pains me to know that he'll be getting the burial treatment soon from Cena :(

 

Mizdow had one of the largest pops after Bryans elimination killed the crowd. Shame he didn't last too long.

 

Just unbelievable how they booked the ending to have Show and Kane in 2015 part of the final 4. And they way they disposed of the fan favourites in Ambrose, Ziggler and Bray, I could just picture Vince back stage thinking "Fuuuuck You guys!" towards the fans.

 

I'm not mad Roman won, I'm looking forward to the Roman Empire, I just really hope he doesn't turn into the Champion that John Cena is / was, but judging by his "you can boo me, or cheer me" part... well looks like he'll be following in Cena's footsteps to never be mad at the fans.

 

I did feel really sorry for him at the end of the Rumble though, but Rock should have stayed the fuck away. His promo at the end of the Rumble talking for Reigns was horrible, it didn't feel like Rock at all.

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Wonder if both Miz and Mizdow were both in the ring, Miz got eliminated. Would Mizdow have self-eliminated?

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Anyone watched Lucha Underground?

 

I gave it a go last night on Dailymotion app on PS4. It's funny. The boss character is ridiculous. But it's not overly bad, kinda entertaining actually. Prince Puma is pretty decent.

 

Only been 12 episodes so far, and they're 40 mins a pop so will catch up with them to see how it goes.

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I watched the first 2 or 3 episodes and decided it wasn't for me. The in ring wrestling is quite good if you like that sort of style, but I didn't like that style of presentation.

 

It's funny that for all the criticism of WWE for being too much entertainemnt, and not enough sports/wrestling, as an alternative Lucha Underground is presented even more as entertainment rather than a sport.

 

Matt Striker's not so subtle digs at WWE were tiresome aswell.

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I watched the first 2 or 3 episodes and decided it wasn't for me. The in ring wrestling is quite good if you like that sort of style, but I didn't like that style of presentation.

 

It's funny that for all the criticism of WWE for being too much entertainemnt, and not enough sports/wrestling, as an alternative Lucha Underground is presented even more as entertainment rather than a sport.

 

Matt Striker's not so subtle digs at WWE were tiresome aswell.

 

So that's where he went. Josh Matthews threw insults at JR recently over twitter, not the wisest of moves.

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Anyone watched Lucha Underground?

 

I gave it a go last night on Dailymotion app on PS4. It's funny. The boss character is ridiculous. But it's not overly bad, kinda entertaining actually. Prince Puma is pretty decent.

 

Only been 12 episodes so far, and they're 40 mins a pop so will catch up with them to see how it goes.

 

Few weeks ago on F4W they said that there was a battle royal rumble from lucha underground that was awesome. Looked for it but couldn't find it. Came across another weekly show though and saw it was like WWE and more like sports entertainment. All them wacky soap opera storylines I just can't deal with.

 

Don't want to see that in Pro-Wrestling. Literally I only watch Japanese pro wrestling and bits of ROH now and again.

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I think Austin read my question for HHH.

 

My question:

How do you feel about fans watching and judging wrestling form a non-kayfabe point of view, especially during the show itself?

 

It feels like the heat heels are supposed to get is going on the bookers and writers instead, undermining the guys in the ring. I think this may be why you (HHH) will always be the biggest heel in WWE because the fans, rightly or wrongly, perceive you as in charge of the show.

 

For example Bray Wyatt eliminated Daniel Bryan from the Royal Rumble, but instead of booing Bray, they boo the booking of the Rumble match itself.

 

Do you think that the genie can ever be put back in the bottle and fans will watch the show from the kayfabe standpoint again? Do you think the fans even want to suspend disbelief anymore, with them being so critical of the creative/booking process? If not what does that mean for WWE?

 

The Podcast:

 

Austin: “It’s almost like kayfabe has died. Back in the day you would watch the product in the ring, and whatever happened in the ring that’s where you got your heat or your satisfaction from. Now if the story doesn’t go the way people want, they’re mad behind the scenes at the writers.”

 

Triple H: “Times changed. Just telling a story and people accepting that storyline for what it is, as a storyline, is gone. A large portion of your audience just buys into that. Another large portion of your audience – they know everything that goes on every five minutes of every day. They know more about what’s happening sometimes than we do. And I think you get to a point where they just want to go the opposite direction. They want to see a certain thing, or they think a certain type of thing is what works.”

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Doesn't WWE have themselves to blame regarding the above. They decided to let the genie out of the bottle, they decided to tell all their fans it's a just entertainment and treat it like you are watching a soap opera.

 

How can fans ever try and take it seriously when the promotion never does.

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Partially, but I think it's a chicken and egg thing.

 

Would WWE have done that if fans weren't already reading the dirt sheets online? You hear the complaint all the time about fans having their intelligence insulted by kayfabe, and in the response the WWE supposedly aims not to insult their inteligence by admitting it's entertainment. As a result the fans watch the show only half believing what they see, if that, the other half of them is conscious that they're just watching a show.

 

So as soon as something happens that they don't like the fans go fully into the "it's a scripted show mindset", taking themselves out of the show. It upsets everything, the heat goes on the bookers instead of the intended heels, faces like Reigns essentially become heels, even though their character is pure babyface, it makes no sense to watch WWE while trying to suspend disbelief, if the fans are booing babyfaces for backstage reasons where not supposed to know about.

 

I enjoy the inner workings of the business as much as anyone, after the fact, I don't like spoilers, because it spoils my enjoyment of the product. I try to forget I know how the backstage stuff works when I watch, the problem is a lot of vocal fans don't. it insults my intelligence when WWE and other promoters think I'm incable of suspending my disbelief, the very thing that makes pro wrestling so enjoyable, and arguably possible.

 

The result of fans watching wrestling this way has chaged wrestling dramatically, as promotions are being forced to cater to it (again it's chicken and egg). Because everybody knows it's fake and is conscious of that while they watch, being realistic and trying to convince the fans it's real, is less of a priority, and wrestling has become "what can we do to wow people?" instead of "what can we do to work people and manipulate their emotions?". So now a 'great match' is who can do the most over the top moves, and selling and the eb and flow of the match is just an after thought. Instead of looking like a wrestling match, it actually looks like two people pretending to have an exaggerated, choreographed pretend wrestling match. I remember there even being talk of TNA considering having fan voting and/or judges to determine the winner of X-division matches, instead of actually got the pin. WTF?

 

I know people who look down on 'rest holds' and wrestlers that work a hold with disdain, as "not good wrestlers" and lazy, even though what they do ironically resembles real wrestling a lot more than what their favourite 'spot-monkeys' do. A friend of mine won't even watch Flair vs Steamboat, but loves indy high flyers trading 'high spots' and calls that proper pro wrestling.

 

Each to their own, but you can see many fans now see it as pure performance now where the most difficult and impressive moves are all that matters. A wrestler is bad now if his moves aren't all slick and silky smooth, even though real fights and sports in general are anything but. I remember Russo recently saying he thinks a lot of young wrestler wrestle the way they do because of wrestling video games, where it's all move and after move, I think a lot of fans may be influenced in their taste by that too.

 

He absolutely hates The Rock (and nearly all big guy) and calls him slow and a terrible wrestler, even though he had audience in the palm of his hand and out their seats during his matches, and could pop the crowd with just an elbow. So The Rock could hypothetically face an Isis terrotist character and my friend would still boo him. If you're a booker, how do you tell that story or any story, when the story is irrelevant and the backstage perception is all that matters? You'd have to make your wrestling stories about backstage politics and such, but that would be a mess of logic, because on the one had you're admitting the business is fake, but there are 'real' backstage issues, and we're going to resolve these 'real' backstage issues with... fake matches. :confused:

 

So I do think the fans are as much to blame, if not more. WWE still try to kayfabe things, like calling Matt Bloom Tensai, but the fans chant "Albert", because they like the sound of their own 'smart' voice.

Edited by pratty

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Partially, but I think it's a chicken and egg thing.

 

Would WWE have done that if fans weren't already reading the dirt sheets online? You hear the complaint all the time about fans having their intelligence insulted by kayfabe, and in the response the WWE supposedly aims not to insult their inteligence by admitting it's entertainment. As a result the fans watch the show only half believing what they see, if that, the other half of them is conscious that they're just watching a show.

 

So as soon as something happens that they don't like the fans go fully into the "it's a scripted show mindset", taking themselves out of the show. It upsets everything, the heat goes on the bookers instead of the intended heels, faces like Reigns essentially become heels, even though their character is pure babyface, it makes no sense to watch WWE while trying to suspend disbelief, if the fans are booing babyfaces for backstage reasons where not supposed to know about.

 

I enjoy the inner workings of the business as much as anyone, after the fact, I don't like spoilers, because it spoils my enjoyment of the product. I try to forget I know how the backstage stuff works when I watch, the problem is a lot of vocal fans don't. it insults my intelligence when WWE and other promoters think I'm incable of suspending my disbelief, the very thing that makes pro wrestling so enjoyable, and arguably possible.

 

The result of fans watching wrestling this way has chaged wrestling dramatically, as promotions are being forced to cater to it (again it's chicken and egg). Because everybody knows it's fake and is conscious of that while they watch, being realistic and trying to convince the fans it's real, is less of a priority, and wrestling has become "what can we do to wow people?" instead of "what can we do to work people and manipulate their emotions?". So now a 'great match' is who can do the most over the top moves, and selling and the eb and flow of the match is just an after thought. Instead of looking like a wrestling match, it actually looks like two people pretending to have an exaggerated, choreographed pretend wrestling match. I remember there even being talk of TNA considering having fan voting and/or judges to determine the winner of X-division matches, instead of actually got the pin. WTF?

 

I know people who look down on 'rest holds' and wrestlers that work a hold with disdain, as "not good wrestlers" and lazy, even though what they do ironically resembles real wrestling a lot more than what their favourite 'spot-monkeys' do. A friend of mine won't even watch Flair vs Steamboat, but loves indy high flyers trading 'high spots' and calls that proper pro wrestling.

 

Each to their own, but you can see many fans now see it as pure performance now where the most difficult and impressive moves are all that matters. A wrestler is bad now if his moves aren't all slick and silky smooth, even though real fights and sports in general are anything but. I remember Russo recently saying he thinks a lot of young wrestler wrestle the way they do because of wrestling video games, where it's all move and after move, I think a lot of fans may be influenced in their taste by that too.

 

He absolutely hates The Rock (and nearly all big guy) and calls him slow and a terrible wrestler, even though he had audience in the palm of his hand and out their seats during his matches, and could pop the crowd with just an elbow. So The Rock could hypothetically face an Isis terrotist character and my friend would still boo him. If you're a booker, how do you tell that story or any story, when the story is irrelevant and the backstage perception is all that matters? You'd have to make your wrestling stories about backstage politics and such, but that would be a mess of logic, because on the one had you're admitting the business is fake, but there are 'real' backstage issues, and we're going to resolve these 'real' backstage issues with... fake matches. :confused:

 

So I do think the fans are as much to blame, if not more. WWE still try to kayfabe things, like calling Matt Bloom Tensai, but the fans chant "Albert", because they like the sound of their own 'smart' voice.

 

One thing I use to find so silly when I use to watch wwe or wcw was when you had a sneak attack in a match and then the next week you would see the victim acting all dumb trying to find out who it was. All he needed to do was watch the Tape!

 

Stuff like that is insulting peoples intelligence.

 

I look at Japan and it's so different. Obviously the fans know it's a work but it is still promoted as a legitimate contest. Looks like a contest and is treated like a real fight league.

 

Far far easier to suspend disbelief when the promotion treats the matches as real fights.

 

You would never have a promotion blantely come out and tell the fans it's all a work.

 

I probably wouldn't watch it anymore if it became like that.

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I look at Japan and it's so different. Obviously the fans know it's a work but it is still promoted as a legitimate contest. Looks like a contest and is treated like a real fight league.

 

Far far easier to suspend disbelief when the promotion treats the matches as real fights.

 

You would never have a promotion blantely come out and tell the fans it's all a work.

 

I probably wouldn't watch it anymore if it became like that.

 

I agree it's better that way, people like you and me want to be worked, but I don't think the WWE fans today booing Roman Reigns do, so I think WWE are in a 'damned if they do, damned if they don't' situation. WWE trying to kayfabe and work these fans is like swimming against the tide, the fans will turn on a good guy purely because WWE would like us to like them. They just will not be worked, just look at the way they insult each other online, "don't a be mark".

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Cancelled my WWE Network account. I'd barely watched anything since the Rumble and even when I did, the fact that they dont allow streaming quality any lower than 720p meant that buffering got pretty bad sometimes on my connection so I didnt see the point in sticking with it.

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Cancelled my WWE Network account. I'd barely watched anything since the Rumble and even when I did, the fact that they dont allow streaming quality any lower than 720p meant that buffering got pretty bad sometimes on my connection so I didnt see the point in sticking with it.

 

A lot of people i know have cancelled the Network because of that very issue. It's not good if it keeps buffering at all, it still buffers on the US version and that's been out over a year.

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I must be lucky. I get near zero buffering when I watch. I even watch through the iPad and AirPlay to my Apple TV and it's flawless.

I'm still enjoying it. And I feel I am getting my £9.99 worth. Just between the PPV and NXT shows, and some of the specials, I'm enjoying it.

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Didn't get any buffering for the first couple of weeks i've had the Network but now I can't seem to watch anything without it buffering at some point, especially the older shows. Recently added content seems to work perfectly fine though.

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Enjoyed the end to Raw, I think the post-Rumble Bryan/Reigns stuff has been as good as it could have been.

Edited by pratty

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