Free Tibet!!

[Daft]

Olympic torch lit despite protest

 

The Olympic torch has been lit at a ceremony in Greece that was briefly disrupted by protesters.

Two pro-Tibet activists broke through the cordon of 1,000 police officers in Olympia and attempted to display a flag as China's envoy spoke.

 

Activists had vowed to protest over the violence in and around Tibet.

 

The torch will now be carried through 20 countries. It will be taken to the top of Mount Everest and through Tibet before arriving in Beijing on 8 August.

 

Protester removed

 

As Liu Qi, head of the Beijing Olympic organising committee, spoke ahead of the torch lighting, two men ran up behind him attempting to display a black flag depicting the Olympic rings made from handcuffs.

 

They were quickly bundled away by police and Mr Liu continued his speech uninterrupted.

 

 

The camera cut away from Mr Liu and the protesters until they had been removed from the scene.

 

Actors dressed in ancient Greek costume then lit the torch in the traditional manner by using a parabolic mirror to focus the sun's rays.

 

 

There were fears that stormy weather would prevent the torch being lit in the customary way.

 

The ceremony, beside the Temple of Hera, was moved forward by an hour and the sun shone through a break in the clouds.

 

'Force for change'

 

The head of the International Olympic Committee (IOC) has defended the decision to hold the Games in China saying there was "no momentum" for a boycott.

 

"The major political leaders don't want a boycott," said IOC president Jacques Rogge said ahead of Monday's ceremony.

 

Before the ceremony, a Tibetan activist confronted Mr Rogge in a hotel lobby and said there should be free access for all media inside China, including Tibet, during the Games.

 

In his speech during the ceremony, Mr Rogge said the Olympic torch relay and the Games should take place in a peaceful environment.

 

"The torch is the link between all athletes and citizens of this world; between all of us who believe in Olympism and the virtue of sport. It has the force to unite humanity and to stand for harmony."

 

He told the Associated Press news agency on Monday that he was engaged in "silent diplomacy" with Beijing on Tibet and other human rights issues.

 

Tibet unrest

 

The Olympic torch is being carried in a 136,000km (85,000 miles) around-the-world relay that will see it pass through 20 countries before arriving in Beijing for the start of the Games on 8 August.

 

Tibet activists are angered that the torch's route will take it through the Himalayan region and to the top of Mount Everest, which straddles the border between Nepal and Tibet.

 

China sent troops to Tibet in 1950 and since then there have been periods of unrest and sporadic uprisings as resentment of Beijing's rule has persisted.

 

The latest round of anti-China protests began in Tibet's main city, Lhasa, on 10 March - the 49th anniversary of a failed uprising - and gradually escalated.

 

Lhasa saw at least two days of violence and there have also been protests in provinces which border Tibet.

 

China says 19 people were killed by rioters and accuses Tibetan spiritual leader the Dalai Lama of inciting the violence.

 

The Tibetan government in exile says at least 130 people have died in a crackdown by Chinese troops and deny any role in the protests.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7310654.stm

 

Its interesting to see the difference between Chinese news reports and the rest of the word. In the words of Russell Brand, never thought I'd say that, "China, GET OUT OF TIBET!!".

[LazyBoy]

Before this debate (though I can't see it being much of one) kicks off, i'd like to add this.

 

The Tibet Myth

 

Pre-1959 Tibet has always been portrayed as some kind of Shangri-La. Basically it's a myth. Read the above, you'll see what I'm talking about.

 

Now i'm not denying there are problems in the region, and with the rule, but freeing the country is definitely not the answer.

[BlueStar]

Before this debate (though I can't see it being much of one) kicks off, i'd like to add this.

 

The Tibet Myth

 

Pre-1959 Tibet has always been portrayed as some kind of Shangri-La. Basically it's a myth. Read the above, you'll see what I'm talking about.

 

Uh, yeah, if you want to rubbish Tibet's calls for freedom from the oppression of Red China you might want to quote a more impartial source than Parenti, who supported Soviet Russia and other totalitarian Communist regeimes even as the rest of the American left abandoned them.

 

You might as well link to an Anne Coulter piece on Bill Clinton or a George Galloway article on the Iraq War.

[LazyBoy]

Uh, yeah, if you want to rubbish Tibet's calls for freedom from the oppression of Red China you might want to quote a more impartial source than Parenti, who supported Soviet Russia and other totalitarian Communist regeimes even as the rest of the American left abandoned them.

 

Buddy, you want to argue, argue the facts. Go ahead, pick out the factual inaccuracies, i'll happily be convinced. But don't dismiss it just because its a different view to what you're normally fed.

[BlueStar]

Sure, would you like me to argue the same way you have and just post a link to a Tibetian student leader's blog?

[LazyBoy]

Sure, would you like me to argue the same way you have and just post a link to a Tibetian student leader's blog?

 

Do they have facts that contradict those in the article I posted? Do they deny that serfdom existed, that these people went unpaid, born to a master and couldn't marry without said master's consent? If so, honestly here, please give me the link.

 

Edit: And as stated in my original post, I do not believe the current situation is right, I believe that going back to what it was before is not the solution.

[BlueStar]

Of course they'll present a different set of facts and, more importantly, a different interpritation of agreed facts. If I do post one, will go through the entire article point by point debunking it? If you do, what will it achieve?

 

I'm not going to dismantle Parenti's epic pro-China ramblings for the same reason I'm not going to go through 9/11 conspiracy nutjob's blogs every time they're posted, because the opposing viewpoint to that fringe is already out there.

[MoogleViper]

Free Tibet? I'll take it.

[LazyBoy]

Of course they'll present a different set of facts and, more importantly, a different interpritation of agreed facts. If I do post one, will go through the entire article point by point debunking it? If you do, what will it achieve?

 

I'm not going to dismantle Parenti's epic pro-China ramblings for the same reason I'm not going to go through 9/11 conspiracy nutjob's blogs every time they're posted, because the opposing viewpoint to that fringe is already out there.

 

So you're just going to throw debate out the window? You got into this now finish it. I'm not against getting proved wrong. I just want to provide another side to the argument. Why do you have a problem with that? If you don't want to talk then don't come in here in the first place, but I want to actively debate with someone over this problem and the solution to it.

[BlueStar]

We haven't been in any debate mate, you havnt presented an argument. All you've done is link to China's view on Tibet from a China sympathising journalist, a position we already knew. All I can do is respond in kind.

 

For what it's worth, here's a critique of the articles of Parenti (and others in the extreme left) from the pro-Tibet camp. They specifically take him up on what they claim is his false portrayal of "old Tibet".

 

http://studentsforafreetibet.org/article.php?id=425

 

Feel free to pick out 'factual inaccuracies' as you've challenged me to do with your article, but of course we'll end up with what we started with - two differing views on the same subject.

[LazyBoy]

Alright i'm going to read that tomorrow actually, then get back to you. I gotta sleep you see. Nevertheless, thank you for the link.

 

Also I doubt the idea that many knew those ideas. Few in the west hear anything against the Free Tibet campaign, so I do think that was necessary to post.

[The fish]

If they want independence, let them have it, I say.

[BlueStar]

I've only got a sec, but let me just sum up my problems with Parenti's piece without going into his disputed facts about Tibet pre-invasion.

 

The general tone is very familiar to the justification many countries through the centuries have used for invasions and continuing occupation - that the citizens of the country are at worst savages and at best backwards and archaic. That they're doing them a favour as they need a patriarchal dictatorship to bring them up to date and save them from themselves, and each other.

 

But more than that I take issue with this idea that the people wanting freedom desire a return to 1950s Tibet. Of course some things about life then seem unpleasant today - it was 50 years ago!

 

Let's go back to America in the 1950s and assume Russia and China had invaded back then and now, in 2008, run a dictatorship, censoring the media and brutally oppressing dissent. Is it fair to say people who want independence for the US from the Soviets advocate and desire a return to segregation, blacks as lower class citizens at the back of the bus, witch hunts and persecution of those thought of as communist sympathisers, the outlawing of homosexuality, people lynched by unaccountable mobs, minorities executed after unfair trials, women paid lower wages and barred from certain jobs, anyone Japanese in detention camps?

 

Is it fair to assume a Tibet where China never invaded would bear any resemblance to the free Tibet of half a century ago, or that a Tibet free from occupation in 2008 would return to those days?

[Shino]

Besides political freedom, what else have they lost with the invasion?

[MoogleViper]

Besides political freedom, what else have they lost with the invasion?

 

That's what I always wonder. I live in a free society so I can't really say much. But would life really be that much different if you were run by another country? At least this way you can blame another country for yours beign shit.

[navarre]

Funnily enough, for someone completely against the Kosovo independence, I actually want Tibet free. Perhaps it's time for us to intervene; however, China is a very powerful country. The only way we could really intevene would be in a political sense- using force against a nuclear armed country, with a powrful military to match, would be potential suicide.

[Haden]

Tibet used to ask for freedom but its quite a complex situation. When China had their revolution and beat Japan in WW2 they basically tried to set their house straight and get their own order back as it had been before the Euro powers came.

 

Before the European powers came Tibet Vietnam loads of places were tributary states like vassals. So China is basically saying we are just making it right before the Europeans came. However China is now getting state sponsered historians to try and say Genghis Kahn was Chinese (no joke) so they can have a claim over mongolia. So its all a bit dodgy in places.

 

The Dalhi Lama used to ask for full independence but now he wants more autonomy I think. I think its really good its been highlighted, Chinas human rights record is miserable and if it wanted these olympics now it has to deal with the consequences.

[MoogleViper]

Funnily enough, for someone completely against the Kosovo independence, I actually want Tibet free. Perhaps it's time for us to intervene; however, China is a very powerful country. The only way we could really intevene would be in a political sense- using force against a nuclear armed country, with a powrful military to match, would be potential suicide.

 

Not at all. Why do we have to stick our noses in where it doesn't belong? We don't have the right to say what other countries should and shouldn't do. Maybe if us and America learned that the world might be a better place.

[navarre]

Not at all. Why do we have to stick our noses in where it doesn't belong? We don't have the right to say what other countries should and shouldn't do. Maybe if us and America learned that the world might be a better place.

 

I don't agree with America and its habit of policing the world, but China is breaking international human rights laws. It is also a member of the United Nations, and is ironically a permanent member of the Security Council. Politically, I think this gives us a chance to intervene. It's entirely my own opinion.

[gaggle64]

I'm just genereally dissapointed at the lack of progress made on human rights in China by the Chinese government. Promises were made by China, and it was on this basis that they earned the right to host the Olympics.

[Olympic Gamer]

Sickening. The world just stands and watches, if only Tibet had some resources to cash in on eh?

 

Another example of our world still bowing to greed.

[Shino]

Sickening. The world just stands and watches, if only Tibet had some resources to cash in on eh?

 

Another example of our world still bowing to greed.

 

Actually the biggest slap they could get without creating an international conflict would be for every athlete to boycott it. It wouldn't be that hard for them individually.

[Iun]

Look at it this way, the UK has had similar issues with NI, and we didn't want the rest of the world sticking their noses in.

 

Free speech (within reason) is ok, so is standing up for beliefs, but violent supression is wrong.

[LazyBoy]

Okay, read the article. Firstly, it's not a historical piece, it's a critique. I'm going to look or actual historical pieces on Tibet later, but that didn't really help you're cause Bluestar, though it was a fun read.

 

It confirmed the important stuff. That when the Chinese came in they actually abolished serfdom. Also, the point about an increase in protests is quite funny. The only reason the number of protests went up after the chinese came in is because the people were finally educated. Before that they were mainly un-educated serfs, who barely knew what China was.

 

Anyway, i'm going to continue to investigate this because it interests me, but to what to do now. I'm heavily in favour of freedom of speech and freedom of religion (though personally i'm not a fan of it), and would like to see it in place everywhere. But I do not think freeing Tibet is a good idea. Firstly, for what reason? It's China's, that colonialism, and the Europeans (us) perfected it, so it would be hypocritical of us to say the least to tell them to give it up. Secondly, there would be heavy pushes for a theocracy...no thanks. Setting up a democracy will always be troublesome with such unbalanced majority of religion. I think the answer is just to push for greater freedom of speech within china. But diplomatically. And not like this. How about by example. How about by scrapping the national database and the patriot act.

[Haden]

I'm just genereally dissapointed at the lack of progress made on human rights in China by the Chinese government. Promises were made by China, and it was on this basis that they earned the right to host the Olympics.

 

Yes I agree with this its all looking a bit dodgy now for China. This was going to be their showcase to the world and its soured quite badly even before its begun.