From Chaperones to Modesty Wear, a Sexual Reformation is Underway

[Grazza]

For about half a decade now, I've been concerned about what I see as the rise of puritanism, prudishness and a widening chasm between the sexes.  I've tried to bring it up a few times and it's usually resulted in quite a big argument.  That's not what I'm after here, but I've just seen an article, by Lara Prendergast, that is so incredibly good, I had to share.

 

Not everyone will agree (personally, I agree with every word), but it really is a superb article that articulates what I've been thinking much better than I could:

 

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A new schism is opening up between men and women. Women are incessantly told to be vigilant of predatory men and are increasingly scared to be out in public. Men, meanwhile, are becoming more nervous around women for fear that their very nature is itself threatening to the opposite sex.

 

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But if you look beyond the current hysteria, something sinister is happening. Barriers between men and women that had been knocked down by feminists are being resurrected — in the name of feminism. Whereas it used to be religious groups that enforced sexual morality, in our modern, secular culture, the loudest voices on the internet are taking over that responsibility.

 

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/11/the-sexual-reformation-has-opened-up-a-schism-between-women-and-men/

Edited November 10, 2017 by Grazza

[drahkon]

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The wrong words, gestures or body language might now render them guilty of one of the new crimes popping up on social media — for example, ‘creeping’ on someone or being ‘too handsy’.

This is something I noticed. Being single and all that.

Back in the days (not to say I'm old, but I swear a couple of years ago it was different) I could smile at a woman I've never met before and either get a smile back or the lady simply ignored me and moved on.
The past few months I got a couple smiles back, but never have I been ignored...oh no, instead some kind of defense mechanism reared its head. I could read in their faces how they viewed me as some kind of threat. As if I was about to grope them or whatever.

I'm not taking a side or anything, just sharing the experiences I've had recently which seem to fit a certain aspect of this development we're seeing.

[Grazza]

3 minutes ago, drahkon said:

This is something I noticed. Being single and all that.

Back in the days (not to say I'm old, but I swear a couple of years ago it was different) I could smile at a woman I've never met before and either get a smile back or the lady simply ignored me and moved on.
The past few months I got a couple smiles back, but never have I been ignored...oh no, instead some kind of defense mechanism reared its head. I could read in their faces how they viewed me as some kind of threat. As if I was about to grope them or whatever.

I'm not taking a side or anything, just sharing the experiences I've had recently which seem to fit a certain aspect of this development we're seeing.

 

An explanation I've heard for that is people are so used to dating apps, it's almost as though interaction now has to be through that.  It would be a shame if relations between the sexes become so formalised.  Not that it's necessarily the full explanation, but it's an interesting point.

[Ashley]

What a crock.

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We are moving towards a chaperone culture, in which women, delicate lambs that we are, must be protected at all times.

If a woman, or women, feel safer with someone else present don't insult them.  Especially as later she says anyone that comes forward shouldn't be ridiculed or disbelieved for it, which is exactly what she's doing here.

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It included suggestions for men such as ‘seek out women to be your heroes’, ‘talk less. At all times’ and consume ‘ethical’ porn made by women, queer people and people of colour. I wonder what Luther would have made of that.

A lot of this boils down to that boring ancient impulse to separate men and women. 

None of those examples are about separating men and women.  They're about equalising men and women (literally seeking out women to respect, giving them space to talk (i.e. you are together at that point) and enabling pornography that is made by a wider range of people and pornography targeted at women is typically fairer on its treatment of the sexes).

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There is political chatter about the possibility of ‘women-only carriages’ on trains.

It exists in Japan to deal with very real problems of sexual assault.  If you find this weird/absurd/too much you should seek to help eradicate the need, not the (attempted) solution.

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Yet women are clearly taking increasingly extreme measures to protect themselves because a small number of vocal campaigners are telling us that all our worst fears about men are true — and we must take action.

Or women are indeed experiencing sexual harassment and it is easier to try and protect themselves than it used to be (certain apps exist whereby you can state where you are meeting someone, what you are wearing and alert when you've arrived - that kind of stuff) and thus they are taking active steps to do so because they feel they want to/have to rather than just being afraid because of stories they read on the internet.

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A sexual abuse accusation, or even a snifter of gossip published online, has the power to sabotage a career and ruin a life.

If only!  So far the only career that's really been 'sabotaged' is Kevin Spacey's and one must wonder what the difference is between KS' accusers and those against Trump, Danny Masterson, Jeremy Piven, Damien Green, Steven Segal etc... There are some cases whereby the accusations have had an impact (Weinstein's being the most obvious, but other less famous ones such as Tyler Grasham) but look at Woody Allen, look at Polanski, look how long it took for Cosby to be taken down.  And yet, Spacey has been (rightly) damaged much quicker.

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And men in positions of authority will inevitably become more anxious about hiring women.

Only those that are likely to do wrong! 

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Consent classes have been compulsory at British universities for a few years

Factually incorrect.

It's ultimately another of those "well that's not my feeling/experience so clearly others are cray" articles that just does no good.  It gets downright sexist at the end by saying women are fucking up society by speaking out about the assaults they endure.

We are thankfully in a period whereby victims are feeling like they can talk out more (sadly just in 'big' public-facing areas such as politics and Hollywood, less so in smaller corporations or businesses) and it's going to take a while to find the 'new normal'.  There may be cases or incidents during that whereby someone is accused incorrectly, or someone makes a false accusation, but articles like this seek to prevent social change.  In fact its not too dissimilar to "back in my day we could say the n-word and they just laughed" - it's a total disregard for how repressed groups are getting and using their agency and as the saying goes; if you're used to privilege equality feels like discrimination.

[Happenstance]

6 minutes ago, Ashley said:

 

We are thankfully in a period whereby victims are feeling like they can talk out more (sadly just in 'big' public-facing areas such as politics and Hollywood, less so in smaller corporations or businesses) and it's going to take a while to find the 'new normal'.  There may be cases or incidents during that whereby someone is accused incorrectly, or someone makes a false accusation, but articles like this seek to prevent social change.  In fact its not too dissimilar to "back in my day we could say the n-word and they just laughed" - it's a total disregard for how repressed groups are getting and using their agency and as the saying goes; if you're used to privilege equality feels like discrimination.

That’s what a lot of this feels like it boils down to. Because victims are finally feeling like they can come forward and tell their stories it’s quite overwhelming and maybe does feel like some kind of backlash or attack on men but it is ultimately a good thing and the unease will (should) pass. These disgusting people will realise that society will no longer cover up their attacks or behaviour and you would hope it would happen less and less, allowing people to start feeling comfortable again. 

[Grazza]

I feared this would get heated, but let me just say, no one is defending sexual assault or rape.  Those are matters for the police.

 

It's more a general feeling I get about men becoming the sex that is not allowed to be sexual.  There is no real evidence that men even harass more than women; just that women are reporting it.  What man can say women have never grabbed his buttocks or said sexual things to him?  You get people on TV saying this is a problem with men or male sexuality, but it's not - it's a problem with those who abuse power.  In real life you have to guess who likes you and who doesn't.  Most of us get it right, but I have to say, I never touch women unsolicited.  There are three women who are very tactile with me and sometimes press their bodies right into me, but they're intelligent enough to know darn well I like it.  I wouldn't dare do it the other way round.

 

Every year the local leisure centre puts on a show featuring topless men - the poster is there right now with eight of them in a row.  A female version would be called "female objectification" for "the male gaze", but the male version is not described as "male objectification" for "the female gaze".  I have no problems whatsoever with the show; just the double standards.  Same with "male privilege" and "female privilege", "misogyny" and "misandry", "menopause" and "andropause".  The narrative is set that only women are the victims.

 

Here's another article by a female journalist admitting she touched men and used sex appeal to get scoops:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/11/sorry-for-touching-your-knee-michael-fallon-i-exploited-you-to-get-ahead/

[MoogleViper]

31 minutes ago, Grazza said:

It's more a general feeling I get about men becoming the sex that is not allowed to be sexual.  There is no real evidence that men even harass more than women; just that women are reporting it.  What man can say women have never grabbed his buttocks or said sexual things to him?  You get people on TV saying this is a problem with men or male sexuality, but it's not - it's a problem with those who abuse power. 

That right there is evidence, it might not be conclusive evidence, but it's still evidence.

 

Also the numerous studies that show how many women say they've been sexually assaulted compared to men.

 

There is an issue with men not feeling safe or comfortable reporting it, for fear that they will be ridiculed or not taken seriously, but that's a separate issue and not one that I think you're raising.

[Grazza]

 

49 minutes ago, MoogleViper said:

There is an issue with men not feeling safe or comfortable reporting it, for fear that they will be ridiculed or not taken seriously, but that's a separate issue and not one that I think you're raising.

 

You're right.  The truth is I don't think men consider it a sexual assault (which, admittedly, means it isn't).  I flat out don't accept that men touch women or say sexual things to women more than women do to men.  It's just that men find most women attractive to a certain extent, and so enjoy the attention.  In this regard, it's probably an insurmountable biological difference between the sexes.

 

Now if I thought a woman (who I didn't find attractive) was using me as an object to get a thrill out of, without considering whether I fancied her, then I would consider that sexual harassment (and yes, I'd be reluctant to report it).  It happens, but admittedly not much.

[Ashley]

16 minutes ago, Grazza said:

I flat out don't accept that men touch women or say sexual things to women more than women do to men.

You can't just not accept something which has been shown with study after study, never-mind personal stories, to be true and expect to be able to continue discussing that point.  

Men are coming forward to, including male celebrities who have said they have been groped by female fans (I recall seeing Busted or McFly saying so, and some other band I can't recall as I only saw some headline in someone else's copy of The Metro).  Of course men can be victims to, but the numbers are nowhere near comparable.

Ultimately people like Weinstein weren't doing it for sex, they were doing it for power.  He has enough money he could hire prostitutes.  He could hire them to degrade them as much as he wants, but it wasn't (just) about the sex.  It was about the power.  It was about knowing he could get away with it.  We live in a patriarchal society where institutes of power are held by men and they abuse that.  

[bob]

Just found this survey by Yougov. Don't know the sample sizes, but some of the results seem to perhaps confirm what Grazza is talking about, i.e. the fact that as the women asked get younger, what they find acceptable changes. Older women seem ok with wolf whistling for example.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/11/01/sexual-harassment-how-genders-and-generations-see-/

Personally, I don't think I've ever been sexually harassed...certainly never had my bum grabbed or had inappropriate comments made whether I enjoyed it or not.

[Grazza]

1 hour ago, Ashley said:

You can't just not accept something which has been shown with study after study, never-mind personal stories, to be true and expect to be able to continue discussing that point.  

 

No, no, I didn't say I don't accept what they say happened (although the jury's always out until proven guilty).  Let me be clear, I accept women feel they've been harassed more than men, but I don't accept they've actually been touched or spoken to sexually more than men.

 

I don't know an employer who doesn't have an HR or Personnel department that wouldn't take this seriously if it was M/F.  And my personal experience is that I do know far more women who grab men's bums than the other way round (I don't know any men who do it).

 

59 minutes ago, bob said:

Just found this survey by Yougov. Don't know the sample sizes, but some of the results seem to perhaps confirm what Grazza is talking about, i.e. the fact that as the women asked get younger, what they find acceptable changes. Older women seem ok with wolf whistling for example.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/11/01/sexual-harassment-how-genders-and-generations-see-/

 

Personally, I don't think I've ever been sexually harassed...certainly never had my bum grabbed or had inappropriate comments made whether I enjoyed it or not.

 

Thanks for that.  Even though you're generally agreeing with those on the opposing side to me, it's interesting to have the info.

 

On the point of wolf whistling, that's an interesting point.  The problem with setting the narrative that only women are the victims, is that the solutions only protect women.  I've seen proposed laws that would specifically outlaw men shouting abuse at women, but not men/women shouting at men.  Any laws should be gender neutral.

 

As for the last point, I'm surprised you've never been harassed (or even grabbed without asking by someone you liked), but your experience is your own.  Women have to take guesses, and most of the time they're right.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Grazza

[bob]

 
As for the last point, I'm surprised you've never been harassed (or even grabbed without asking by someone you liked), but your experience is your own.  Women have to take guesses, and most of the time they're right.

It's probably because I'm horrendously ugly.

[Glen-i]

14 minutes ago, bob said:

It's probably because I'm horrendously ugly.

I KNEW IT!

Edited November 10, 2017 by Glen-i

[Ashley]

13 hours ago, Grazza said:

No, no, I didn't say I don't accept what they say happened (although the jury's always out until proven guilty).  Let me be clear, I accept women feel they've been harassed more than men, but I don't accept they've actually been touched or spoken to sexually more than men.

I don't know an employer who doesn't have an HR or Personnel department that wouldn't take this seriously if it was M/F.  And my personal experience is that I do know far more women who grab men's bums than the other way round (I don't know any men who do it).

No we were talking about the same thing.  It is demonstrably untrue that men are sexually harassed as much as women. 

Going by personal experience for this kind of thing is absolutely the wrong thing to do.  I know it might seemingly be the only way you can, but (and no personal offence meant here) what makes you think women you know would feel comfortable or able to talk to you about any assaults they faced?  I know some of my close female friends who have been assaulted but will choose not to talk to me (or sometimes anyone) about it.  You cannot just assume because females you know haven't said anything to you its because they have not experienced it.

[Grazza]

38 minutes ago, Ashley said:

No we were talking about the same thing.  It is demonstrably untrue that men are sexually harassed as much as women. 

 

Well, it might happen as much, it's just that men don't consider it harassment.  Compare a man putting his hand on a woman's knee to a woman putting her hand on a man's knee.  The latter happens all the time, it's just that men would never consider it harassment.  Same with sexual language.  Which does make me wonder - if women won't tolerate the exact same thing, is that equality?

 

The trouble with the Westminster dossier in particular is that we have no idea what the allegations even are, just that they are "harassment" of some kind.  A political landscape has been created where a mere allegation has become a devastating weapon, as we saw with the case of the late Carl Sargeant.

 

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Going by personal experience for this kind of thing is absolutely the wrong thing to do.  I know it might seemingly be the only way you can, but (and no personal offence meant here) what makes you think women you know would feel comfortable or able to talk to you about any assaults they faced?  I know some of my close female friends who have been assaulted but will choose not to talk to me (or sometimes anyone) about it.  You cannot just assume because females you know haven't said anything to you its because they have not experienced it.

 

That is true, but I know from my male friends that women have touched their buttocks.  They thought it was somewhat presumptuous, but (as I gather) didn't consider it a genuine sexual assault.  You're right that women wouldn't tell me all their experiences, but neither would men tell everyone their experiences.  Going back to my paragraph above, it does suggest men have more tolerance for an unwanted advance.

 

Here's another good article that (I fear) people will like even less: 

 

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But many of those who claim to seek female equality have another, much fiercer objective. They actually see men as the enemy, the ‘patriarchy’, to be overthrown by all means necessary, and replaced by a feminised society. They also see marriage as a machine for oppressing women. Their objectives moved a lot closer last week.

This is why many of those who said they wanted equality also sneered at restraint and manners. They claim now that they want the restraint and the manners back (though the suspicion lingers that much of the current fuss is aimed mainly at making all men look wicked and grubby).

But where are such restrained manners to come from in our liberated society? They were part of an elaborate code of courtship and respect which was learned by example in the married family, and has now completely vanished. In our post-marriage free-for-all, why should we expect either sex to be restrained? All that’s left is the police or the public pillory of Twitter.

It was that old code which allowed us, unlike the Islamic world, to permit the happy mixing of men and women without black shrouds, veils and ‘no-touching’ rules so strict that they even rule out a male-female handshake.

 

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2017/11/peter-hitchens-what-will-women-gain-from-all-this-squawking-about-sex-pests-a-niqab.html

 

I do think Peter Hitchens makes a good point about how it was chivalry and manners that allowed male-female interaction in the West.  A gentleman, for instance, would never assault a lady, but the option for interaction was there if the signals were present.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Grazza
formatting

[Ashley]

21 minutes ago, Grazza said:

Well, it might happen as much, it's just that men don't consider it harassment.  Compare a man putting his hand on a woman's knee to a woman putting her hand on a man's knee.  The latter happens all the time, it's just that men would never consider it harassment.  Same with sexual language.  Which does make me wonder - if women won't tolerate the exact same thing, is that equality?

The trouble with the Westminster dossier in particular is that we have no idea what the allegations even are, just that they are "harassment" of some kind.  A political landscape has been created where a mere allegation has become a devastating weapon, as we saw with the case of the late Carl Sargeant.

That is true, but I know from my male friends that women have touched their buttocks.  They thought it was somewhat presumptuous, but (as I gather) didn't consider it a genuine sexual assault.  You're right that women wouldn't tell me all their experiences, but neither would men tell everyone their experiences.  Going back to my paragraph above, it does suggest men have more tolerance for an unwanted advance.

Context is very important in these situations.  That MP didn't resign for the knee incident (Julie whatsherface said she didn't care about it), he resigned for other incidents.  Yes, a hand on a knee can be harmless between two equals.  When you hold power (which MPs do) and do it to people with lesser power it can be an abuse.  Its complicated and ultimately its about the impact on the individual.  I will happily touch a friend's knee (usually in a mock patronising way) because I know the power balance there is equal, I would never do it to a colleague, not even one who I know very well because I know it is not appropriate in the context.  And yes, some people will hark "well it used to be fine" and yeah, maybe it seemed to be fine in the past (or indeed, people were more accepting of it) but that doesn't mean you can carry on doing it.  Plenty of things that used to be fine now aren't.

Arguably men are less likely to consider it for the very same reason they are more likely to conduct it in the first place.  Toxic masculinity and all that, the notion that men should have power and if they are 'subjugated' it is something to be ashamed of.  In ways it actually works the same for men and women - silence through shame.  I wouldn't like to assume that men not talking about assaults is because they have greater tolerance, it might be they feel less support to do so.

Oh and its nice to see Hitchins use sexual assault to trot out his Islamophobia.