The Star Wars Thread

[Cube]

It's not even just Star Wars actors:

 

 

I wasn't a fan of the performance, but I think she had a lot of things against her, such as having to act alongside people in dumpy costumes that look like they didn't fit. I think even the best actors would have struggled. I'm sure Rupert Friend is a much better actor than how he seemed in this (out of the three, Moses was by far the best). 

TBH, I think the biggest problem is that this group of characters were designed as highly stylised cartoon villains, with over-the-top designs that work well in animation - at least they haven't attempted to portray them flying with their lightsabers in live action. 

[Happenstance]

In a show that I did have certain issues with so far, she'd be one of the least of them. Other than the way she said Obiiii Wannnnn when searching for him I had no problem with her performance. I hate the internet sometimes. It's given too much of a voice to those who don't deserve it.

[Julius]

2 hours ago, Cube said:

It's not even just Star Wars actors:

Yeah, I was more just highlighting that the Star Wars community and it's actors haven't really come together like this to take a stand before, but of course it's great to see support pouring in from people in other corners of the industry! 

2 hours ago, Cube said:

I wasn't a fan of the performance, but I think she had a lot of things against her, such as having to act alongside people in dumpy costumes that look like they didn't fit. I think even the best actors would have struggled. I'm sure Rupert Friend is a much better actor than how he seemed in this (out of the three, Moses was by far the best). 

The one I'm still struggling to understand is casting Sung Kang as the Fifth Brother. I'm fine with not absolutely nailing the look they have in Rebels (even if I do think Star Wars, if any franchise, is best positioned to do that in terms of budget and tech, they're limiting themselves to a TV budget because they want to drive The Volume and other aspects further into the mainstream TV creative process), but the Fifth Brother looks like a poor cosplay, and this is a character out of all of the Inquisitors who was kind of a giant amongst them. Sung Kang just isn't even remotely close to the Fifth Brother in height, size, etc., so I'm wondering why he couldn't have just been an original character instead? In a film the Fifth Brother would absolutely be a CG character, so I'm a bit puzzled on why they decided to go ahead with using that character specifically here. 

2 hours ago, Cube said:

TBH, I think the biggest problem is that this group of characters were designed as highly stylised cartoon villains, with over-the-top designs that work well in animation

While the species designs and certain features of the Inquisitors in Rebels were highly stylised for the medium, I think their designs could have been translated to live-action better than they have been. I think a massive part of why it might feel inconsistent is less so to do with the characters innately not being able to translate well to live-action, or even their designs (other than their faces/bodies/etc., their costumes are fairly generic black leather and plastic, like Vader's) and much more so to do with the lighting. Whereas this can easily be adjusted in animation, having an all-black live-action costume heavily contrast against softer colours like we've seen a lot so far in Kenobi (dark greys, sandy creams, etc.) makes it look almost like a fan film to me at times?

To contrast with this show, I think back to the OT and how particular they were about where they put Vader:

• in A New Hope, Vader was entirely aboard ships; white walls of the Tantive IV offered a stark contrast to his all-black costume, as did the light greys of the Death Star's interior, and the lights bouncing off his get-up in the cockpit of his TIE during the Trench Run. 

• in The Empire Strikes Back, Vader spends a lot of time aboard his ship the Executor, is amongst the white snow-packed walls of Hoth (again, heavy contrast to his suit), and seen on Bespin (which besides it's whites and greys also uses smoke, orange and blue lighting in the carbon-freezing chamber to skilfully give us his instantly recognisable silhouette). 

• in Return of the Jedi, his time is split between the Executor (again), the Death Star II (similar greys as mention with the original Death Star, as well as the incredible darkness of the throne room which gives some great opportunities to bounce light off his visor through sparse scene lighting and the duel), and even though he ends up down on Endor, we don't actually see him step foot outside of the well-lit greys of the landing platform. 

I've just finished Part III and there's one location we've seen in the trailers where the Inquisitor costumes match well with the lighting, but otherwise I think they have the same issues as before. Something that probably also doesn't help in this instance, weirdly, is The Volume, because while they do attempt to simulate the light you would have in certain locations, it fails to do so in a way at all times which is natural. 

3 hours ago, Happenstance said:

I hate the internet sometimes. It's given too much of a voice to those who don't deserve it.

Yep, absolutely this! 

[Cube]

27 minutes ago, Julius said:

While the species designs and certain features of the Inquisitors in Rebels were highly stylised for the medium, I think their designs could have been translated to live-action better than they have been.

The Grand Inquisitor's species looks fantastic in Episode III. I'm sure with a bit of work and someone with more experience with prosthetics would have been able to have that design in a more action orientated manner (I think Doug Jones would have absolutely nailed the Grand Inquisitor). I can never remember the numbers, so I had no idea that the Fifth Brother in this was supposed to be someone seen in Rebels - I thought he was just a human with very dry skin, the markings are very subtle. 

[Julius]

Watched Part III of Obi-Wan Kenobi twice now, thoughts:

Spoiler

• every Vader suiting up scene is awesome, and this is no exception. I love how it's contrasted against Obi-Wan trying to meditate and make sense of what he's learned. Vader looks pretty much perfect, as does his room. Wish we got to see it in the sequels...

• Vader's Castle is one of the coolest things introduced since Disney's takeover, I love it so much. Great seeing Mustafar again (and probably not for the last time). 

• Vader sounds much younger here than in Rogue One, where James Earl Jones sounded...rough. While James Earl Jones is credited, I think there's a good chance they used Respeecher, the same AI used recently for Luke. 

• Obi-Wan's description of the Force feeling like turning on a light when in the dark was perfect. 

• generic not totally desert area you'd see in a Western™

• I love the off-kilter camera zooming in on Obi-Wan as he sees a spectre of Anakin on the horizon. 

• Fortress Inquistorius looks *awesome*. Once they land and Reva is walking through the hangar, you can absolutely here heavy hints of the Imperial March incorporated into the music, even if it's not outright stated (cadence and chord progression are very similar, but rushed along). 

• love seeing the probes launched! 

• the contrast between Obi-Wan trusting no-one and Leia trusting pretty much everyone definitely captures that childlike innocence you'd expect to contrast against the pain Obi-Wan has gone through. 

• "That's a weird story" 

• velociraptor man last episode, mole man this episode...

• Obi-Wan's slip-up on the back of the transport calling Leia, well, "Leia", was tense, but then twisting it into him seeing Padmé in her...that's going to get me every time, huh?

• hearing Obi-Wan's glimpses of not-so-specific things about his mother's shawl, father's hands, and having a younger brother sounded a bit pained. It's a side we don't really get to here about with the Jedi when they were in prime other than the one time we got to see that separation play out between Anakin and his mother. 

• while riding up to the checkpoint, when Obi-Wan starts panicking, the music sounds like it's hinting at the start of the Episode IV Vader/Empire theme? 

• was half expecting Obi-Wan to use a Jedi mind trick, but alas, it wasn't meant to be

• I don't understand the logic of raising his head for the Imperial probe droid to positively ID him and then blasting it and the stormtroopers away, rather than just doing all that with his head down. One of those times where they try to get a cool shot but logic goes out the window a little to set it up. 

• did not expect to see that stormtrooper get cut in half at all, expected them to cut away for sure. A hint at what's to come..?

• didn't understand why Obi-Wan felt the need to destroy the gate controls to put the lasers away when he could clearly just walk around the checkpoint on either side? 

• man, that scene where they're captured and then immediately saved felt like it wanted to be tense...but just couldn't be. Also don't understand why Obi-Wan would immediately trust an Imperial officer after what we've seen so far, even if they betrayed and killed stormtroopers I feel like he'd still be less than trusting. 

• Net-B and Lola meeting was a cute moment, made better by Leia asking "what if he has something to say?" after finding out that Net-B is essentially mute. 

• I like the idea of The Path being like an underground Silk Road for Jedi and others escaping the Empire. 

• Quinlan Vos hype! Still alive at this point, interesting - wonder if he'll turn up somewhere else, like The Bad Batch or in Andor? Maybe even Jedi: Survivor seeing as he's smuggling Force sensitives?

• hold up. So everyone and their mother can't see that Obi-Wan in Jedi-styled robes is clearly a Jedi (or at the very least someone worth following), but then some random stormtroopers immediately spot him and can definitively state "we saw a Jedi enter this place"? 

• really wish we got to see Net-B go to town with that hammer...

• again, Obi-Wan's PTSD-like dizziness and the off-kilter camera is the perfect way to deal with him sensing Vader. 

• duuuuuuude what a scene when Vader strolls into town! His immediately recognisable silhouette as a shadow against the houses, the focus on his boots, on his hand and lightsaber, the end of his cape...back to Obi-Wan...and a pan up from toe to head. Awesome. His silhouette really works even in the darkness of this town. 

• the way he starts tearing people out from behind cover, Force choking that one guy, then pushing his kid against the wall with the Force and then - holy crap is this the darkest thing we've seen in Star Wars so far? - snapping said kid's neck? Then dragging that woman across the floor as she screams...damn. Once he turns up this episode feels very Empire-meets-Rogue One, for a lot of reasons, but here's it's trying to coax Obi-Wan out by making his thoughts betray his location and to pull him into conflict. Love it. Not even a word spoken, either. 

• generally, I just want to say that even though I have some issues with certain things since the Disney buyout, Lucasfilm have done such a good job of keeping Vader as this terrifying presence. Rogue One and now here, it feels like they're once again instilling the fear many of us had seeing him hold Captain Antilles by the throat with one hand in A New Hope. 

• dude that lightsaber ignition from Vader! I wanted a shot exactly like that from Luke months before TLJ (focused on the hand and the ignition) when everyone thought he'd be going up against the Knights of Ren, so I'm glad we got to see pretty much exactly what elsewhere. Love the lighting (or lack thereof). 

• love how no real attention is called to Obi-Wan's first lightsaber ignition in the show, either musically or in framing. Does look crazy bright but again, that's because it's also just crazy dark. 

• okay so it's not the Imperial March or the Vader/Empire theme from IV, and I don't want another Vader theme (please!), but I do like the little bit of music we hear when Vader approaches Obi-Wan once his lightsaber is ignited from the shadows. Sounds like you get hints of the Imperial March in there and in the following scene, but again, not explicitly. 

• the tunnels and the small mounds of dirt by the mines: DUNE! Haha

• love Vader just toying with Obi-Wan, only using one hand during this initial duel. Not a fan of the music when they are duelling though, it sounds somewhat like Rebel Fanfare to me and doesn't really fit the pure menace of the scene initially. The crazy ups and downs when we cut back after seeing Leia in the tunnel is more like it, but feel like there were more effective ways to go. 

• a lot of shaky cam here which I wasn't a fan of, feel like they were trying to make this area bigger than it actually is. 

• Obi-Wan cutting something to release gas and hide from Vader and just the darkness of the scene, and Vader toying with Obi-Wan, again makes this feels very Empire. 

• in case the first two episodes hadn't made it obvious enough, let's stick a Jedi symbol that Reva can look at and reach out to but hesitate from to show how conflicted she is. Sigh. We'll see how it plays out and it's obviously not Moses Ingram's fault in the slightest...but I don't want to see any sort of redemption here, just feels like it's distracting from the main draw a bit. 

• oh damn Vader lighting a fire with his lightsaber and then forcing Obi-Wan into the fire and burning him alive (the screams of pain sound so similar to Anakin's in III!) is exactly the thing Vader would do just to start getting back at Obi-Wan after losing everything. Remember, the Emperor made it so that he's constantly in pain in that suit of his. You could feel the malice and hatred that had been focused for years at that point, he'd been dreaming about that for a long time. Him walking away rather than giving chase...I get the feeling Vader is enjoying the hunt and wants it to last. 

• Vader's silhouette against the fire is a beautiful shot. 

• "let's have Leia be kidnapped the episode after she's saved from her first kidnapping"...really? 

This episode had some great moments, like the first two, but once again I just think it's missing the themes we'd expect to hear here. There are hints of the Imperial March time and time and time again in the episode...and it never arrives. I think the Kenobi theme is fine, the one melody I highlighted in the spoiler tag is good (but still, pretty forgettable and not at all driving the scene home), but like I mentioned last time, it's felt incredibly generic by Star Wars standards. 

It's all just fell a bit flat for me musically so far, and while I'm holding out hope we get some familiar themes by the end of the show, we're not halfway through and as someone who loves the music of Star Wars, this could be one of the weaker Star Wars soundtracks in recent years by some margin. So far I've just been left wanting in terms of the music. I think there were ample opportunities where the episode was begging for certain themes to be blasted, and they weren't. 

Compare the lack of Imperial March in this episode to what Michael Giacchino did in Rogue One (which is a very underrated Star Wars soundtrack), which geniusly weaves together the Imperial March and Episode IV's Vader/Empire theme:

It genuinely makes me wonder if they set limitations on Natalie Holt where she couldn't use familiar themes. 

Anyways, talking of music, I might as well talk about the main theme for the show a bit:

• the opening of the piece sounds like a heavily slowed version of Qui-Gon's theme from The Phantom Menace. And yes, Qui-Gon absolutely has a theme in The Phantom Menace, just don't ask why it doesn't turn up until halfway through the film  the string at 0:40 also sound very Qui-Gon. 

• funnily enough, it's the same French horn section being blasted a few times throughout which sounds similar to the Spider-Man PS4 theme. A coincidence, obviously, but it's a funny one! 

• can definitely hear echoes of the Force theme (aka Obi-Wan's original theme) and the Main Title (aka Luke's theme in the OT, tying Obi-Wan to his mission) throughout. 

• I'm also hearing subtleties which sound very similar to Jedi Steps (The Force Awakens) and The Spark (The Last Jedi). 

• one or two moments definitely hinting at Leia, specifically her theme and her shared theme with Luke, Brother and Sister. 

• a hell of a lot of French horn. So, this, but change cowbell for French horn 

• when it starts hitting heavier minor key stuff, you start to get really small hints of the Imperial March and Anakin's Betrayal, maybe even some of Anakin's Dark Deeds. Anakin's descent and transformation is definitely hinted at musically a few times throughout the theme. 

• the rocking back and forth at 1:05 reminds me a lot of the rocking back and forth we hear several times during the Kamino/mystery theme from Attack of the Clones. I like to think it's John Williams hinting at Obi-Wan's discovery of Anakin's current position. 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Julius

[Happenstance]

Huh, apparently the alien driver in this episode was Zack Braff.

[Hero-of-Time]

Just finished the 3rd episode of Obi-Wan. I wasn't impressed by it and I'm really disliking what they've done to Kenobi. Dude is now a coward and a pushover. Alec Guinness Kenobi put up more of a fight and he was an OAP.  

[Happenstance]

1 hour ago, Hero-of-Time said:

Just finished the 3rd episode of Obi-Wan. I wasn't impressed by it and I'm really disliking what they've done to Kenobi. Dude is now a coward and a pushover. Alec Guinness Kenobi put up more of a fight and he was an OAP.  

I mean this is obviously that story, seeing him regain his mojo ready to become senile Alec Guinness who starts thinking Anakin's first name is Darth.

[Ronnie]

Crazy how it needs explaining that Obi-Wan has lost his mojo temporarily. It's like people having a problem with Luke starting out as a guilt-ridden and broken man in The Last Jedi. THAT'S THE STORY. It's called character development.

Spoiler

Loved Part III, pretty much everything except for the weirdly excessive shakey-cam, that was my only major complaint. It's a lovely looking show otherwise, nice sets, nicely framed shots. Great dialogue. Loved Indira Varma's character, hope she survives. Bit confused how she got to Obi-Wan without running into Reva, I'm not usually one to mind so much the little weird stuff like that, but that one took me out of the episode a bit. I guess the tunnels was more like a labyrinth. 

I feel like the prosthetic of the van driver might have needed a bit more work to match the vocals, felt a little stiff. 

Almost everything with Vader was pretty much perfect, though his dialogue sounded a little robotic, similar to Luke's in Book of Boba Fett, and it turns out they did use Respeecher to I guess that makes sense. But everything else they nailed his first appearance in the show. I wonder if Reva very noticeably being shocked about the neck snap was to show how much of a monster Vader is, or to lay the bread crumbs for a potential redemption. Her nearly touching the Jedi emblem was obviously hinting at a history with them, perhaps she feels angry at the thought of some children/people surviving and getting away, but not her.

Wonder if they dressed Leia in green to bring back ROTJ vibes.

Fifth Brother continues to be awesome. Love any scene he's in. Fortress looked great too, loved Reva's (loooong) walk to the meeting room, with the dramatic music. 

Good cliffhanger, audibly groaned when the credits rolled which is always a good sign. NED-B was great, enjoyed how he was mute. Nice little twist on the typical droid character. Something I appreciate with Mando and now this show is that they don't tend to drag things out, the story moves pretty quickly. I figured they would leave Kenobi and Vader meeting for the last episode, but no, in there already at the half way point, though obviously this is a typical second act 'main character at his lowest point' type thing.

@Julius I totally get wanting to hear classic themes, but while I agree the quality isn't quite as strong as it could be, I think it's nice to hear some new stuff. Also, the classic tunes have the benefit of 20-40 years stuck in your head, so maybe years down the line you'll be hoping to see these new ones in a future project, if you get what I mean? I'm liking Obi-Wan's the more I hear it, though to be fair, I fell in love with Rey's theme instantly and this isn't a patch on that, so quality wise I agree it's a bit average.

[Julius]

16 hours ago, Ronnie said:

@Julius I totally get wanting to hear classic themes, but while I agree the quality isn't quite as strong as it could be, I think it's nice to hear some new stuff. Also, the classic tunes have the benefit of 20-40 years stuck in your head, so maybe years down the line you'll be hoping to see these new ones in a future project, if you get what I mean? I'm liking Obi-Wan's the more I hear it, though to be fair, I fell in love with Rey's theme instantly and this isn't a patch on that, so quality wise I agree it's a bit average.

To clarify, I like Obi-Wan's Theme -- when I say it's "fine", I mean that more so as a piece of Star Wars and John Williams music, and how it's been used in the show so far (which, to be clear, isn't down to John, as he only worked on writing the composition), rather than it being a bad piece of music. It clearly has the musical identity of a piece of Star Wars music, hinting at almost every piece of music you'd tie to Obi-Wan from the Saga, but like we both seem to agree: it's not the greatest piece of Star Wars music. Nor was I expecting it to - or really want it to - be. I'd have no issue with it turning up in the future in other projects, though what I will say is that there is already so much content with Obi-Wan in now already that I think it would fit better as a one-off theme for this show, and his state at the time of this show, because otherwise it could feel a bit out of place. It hasn't really been stated that boldly yet in the show, in fairness. 

My issue isn't directed there, it's directed at the rest of the score, and that one example in Part II that I mentioned specifically where I struggle to understand the decision to not use the Force Theme. It could still be used later, of course, but for narrative reasons it would have made perfect sense to use it in that moment, and right now we're three episodes deep in a six episode miniseries with very little - besides the Obi-Wan Theme and very few weirdly put together and placed nods to the Imperial March - connective musical tissue to the rest of Star Wars.

I think that's totally fine in something like The Mandalorian, because it's such a separate time and place from the rest of the wider Star Wars story, and when it's not and has those moments where it is more clearly connected to the Saga, it knows it needs to lean on those John Williams themes. The same goes for how Rogue One pretty elegantly traversed the minefield of being a prequel leading directly into A New Hope, which doesn't have the Imperial March, and had its own Vader/Imperial theme, as I mentioned before. 

This is a story which takes place as close to the midpoint between ROTS and ANH as you could get without being pedantic about it, pulling in characters we've know in pop culture for 45 years now and having them as the main characters of the show, and yet it doesn't seem to want or care to utilise their already established themes. I mean, one in particular which I guess I'll stick in a spoiler tag, but I feel everyone knows about...

Spoiler

...is that do we really need a new theme to introduce kid Leia, instead of having her theme from ANH? It doesn't need to be stated as often or as clearly, but you absolutely could - and I'd argue should - lean on the Williams theme there and just add a tinge of childlike whimsy with the instruments you choose to score the scene. 

To put it this way: when I listen back to the scores of most Star Wars films, without visuals, I can get a clear idea of what's going on because of the themes utilised; it's easy to visualise the Binary Sunset while listening to Binary Sunset, or Vader walking down a hall while listening to the Imperial March, or Luke (or someone else) doing something heroic to the backing of the Main Title, or the tragic star-crossed fate of Anakin and Padmé listening to Across the Stars.

So far in this show, if I listened back to the score without visuals, I might be able to guess at Obi-Wan's presence from his theme (as it so heavily ties to other characters and events he's closely linked to), and I'd probably be able to gather that the Empire is around in some form or another from the limited hints of the Imperial March, but I swear I wouldn't know that Vader or some of the other legacy characters were in this show based on its score. Likewise, I wouldn't know at all about the contents of the five minute recap just listening to its score, because it sounds so generic. 

Again, we're only three episodes in (though that is halfway) and we might still get to the point of having some of those major themes return, but so far, to be harsh and to be blunt: the show has been musically incongruous when placed in the larger picture of the Galaxy Far, Far Away. It doesn't even feel like it's subverting those other major themes either, and on the whole it just sounds a little lost to me. 

I think Natalie Holt did a good job with Loki, especially it's epic main theme (which is easily one of maybe five or six memorable MCU themes?), and I was excited to hear her score Star Wars and so I don't want it to sound like I'm railing on her, but unless someone tied her hands and said "no, don't lean on Williams", I do just struggle to understand some of the decisions made with the show's music so far. It's missing the entire point of a leitmotif/character theme to not think about how they can be used, not go in a different (and frankly, more generic) direction, and this is arguably the piece of content with the strongest ties to the Saga that Lucasfilm has put out under Disney outside of the sequels. 

I think Michael Giacchino said it best in his post-release interview for Rogue One with StarWars.com:

Quote

StarWars.com: One thing that I particularly liked about it was I felt like you were including some pieces of music that we knew from the older films, but then they would take a different direction.

Michael Giacchino: Yeah, and I always love those. Even when I’m listening to scores or even when John would do something like that in his scores — John Williams — and they would nod to something that came before. Just those little Easter eggs that you would get and go, “Oh, yeah.” It’s a way of reminding you of the universe you are in, as well. I certainly didn’t want to say, “Hey, I’m going to do a whole new thing with this and now it’s going to sound like heavy metal!” I wanted it to feel like home. I wanted people watching it to feel like they were in a Star Wars universe. I think that’s important. It’s such a brand and everyone knows or expects a certain thing when they go to a Star Wars movie. I don’t think that’s a bad thing. I think that’s a nice thing. It’s a place that you want to return to. I know I certainly did.

StarWars.com: It creates a continuity.

Michael Giacchino: Absolutely. That’s why those movies are really great, because they all feel of the same cloth. There’s something wonderful about that, which I love. It’s a book that you can go back and open and feel at home.

It's interesting to note too that Giacchino only had four and a half weeks to score Rogue One, one of the tightest deadlines for a Star Wars score. I remember hearing after the release of the film that he was hesitant to take on the project, but his brother kind of willed him on and said that he'd had this scored in his head since he was a kid, and just had to dedicate it to paper. You can tell from the score to that film that he's a Star Wars fan and deeply understands Star Wars music. 

So yeah, I don't know. I don't want to sound like too much of a negative Nancy, it's just that I love the scores of Star Wars - and music as a storytelling device - so much, and kind of expected more. I think some of my opinions would have remained the same, but I imagine the trailers leaning so heavily on themes like Duel of the Fates and Battle of the Heroes didn't help.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Julius

[Ronnie]

1 hour ago, Julius said:

My issue isn't directed there, it's directed at the rest of the score, and that one example in Part II that I mentioned specifically where I struggle to understand the decision to not use the Force Theme. It could still be used later, of course, but for narrative reasons it would have made perfect sense to use it in that moment, and right now we're three episodes deep in a six episode miniseries with very little - besides the Obi-Wan Theme and very few weirdly put together and placed nods to the Imperial March - connective musical tissue to the rest of Star Wars.

Specifically on the Force theme... I think they're holding that card close to their chest and imo rightly so. I think they're waiting to use it at a much more impactful moment later on, when Obi-Wan fully rediscovers himself. 

I always feel a bit out of my depth when discussing scores with you because it's obviously a huge part of what you enjoy about watching these shows/films, whereas I don't really know what I'm talking about most of the time as the more subtle stuff kind of goes over my head. The spoiler tagged part I agree with though, as well as your overall point about the score seeming a bit lost and directionless, let's see what the next three episodes bring I guess to get an overall picture.

[Cube]

I'd rather composers re-work sections of known themes or create entirely new music rather than trying to create new music trying to evoke the previous music. The Rogue One soundtrack was just distracting to me because it kept sounding like it was going to burst out into a known theme but didn't (Other soundtracks I found distracting include The Hobbit, Spider-man Homecoming and Doctor Strange).

@Ronnie

Spoiler

Reva mentions that she figured out where the tunnels led, so probably left and went a more direct route to the destination. I suspect she remembers from being smuggled through the route herself.

 

[bob]

1 hour ago, Cube said:

I'd rather composers re-work sections of known themes or create entirely new music rather than trying to create new music trying to evoke the previous music. The Rogue One soundtrack was just distracting to me because it kept sounding like it was going to burst out into a known theme but didn't (Other soundtracks I found distracting include The Hobbit, Spider-man Homecoming and Doctor Strange).

@Ronnie

  OB1 Ep III (Reveal hidden contents)

Reva mentions that she figured out where the tunnels led, so probably left and went a more direct route to the destination. I suspect she remembers from being smuggled through the route herself.

 

What was Dr Strange trying to copy?

[Cube]

I just kept thinking "why is the Star Trek reboot music playing?", just seemed odd that a recurring theme sounded so much like one of his earlier ones - which is a brilliant theme. That said, even John Williams was guilty of reusing music, with the Episode 2 hover car chase music being used for Quidditch. 

[Julius]

3 hours ago, Ronnie said:

Specifically on the Force theme... I think they're holding that card close to their chest and imo rightly so. I think they're waiting to use it at a much more impactful moment later on, when Obi-Wan fully rediscovers himself. 

Yeah, that's definitely where they could be going with it, and it wouldn't surprise me if that was the case (as I've said before). I just think it fits that scene, considering its the first time in the show we see Obi-Wan using the Force again, it's the moment where we first really see him coming back into his own and not hesitating, but acting. 

Not saying they should have been belting it, mind. If it showed up later at the end of the show when he's more completely rediscovered himself and is stated much more clearly then, I think they really could have planted the seed in that moment by hinting at it, but it's the absence of it completely - hint or a full statement - which is my issue with it. 

Same with Vader and the Imperial March. 

3 hours ago, Ronnie said:

let's see what the next three episodes bring I guess to get an overall picture.

Oh yeah, absolutely, I think it being a disappointment musically so far (in my eyes at least) doesn't preclude its potential to still have some standout musical moments, but it's tough to know what to expect now musically because of that lack of connection being set up in the first half of the series. I think they've put themselves into a bit of a corner though, as it's now going to be just as out of place if they're hypothetically belting the Imperial March every time Vader is on-screen as it would be the more generic stuff we've got so far; I always think it's important to take stories as a whole, especially when it comes to a TV series, but with the music of a series it's a bit different, as unless there's a drastic change (i.e. a shift in genre), you're setting yourself up for failure or success as the music later on more often than not will be built on what you hear earlier in a series. 

We'll have to wait and see, which is pretty much in line with my thoughts on the series in general at the moment. 

2 hours ago, Cube said:

I'd rather composers re-work sections of known themes or create entirely new music rather than trying to create new music trying to evoke the previous music. The Rogue One soundtrack was just distracting to me because it kept sounding like it was going to burst out into a known theme but didn't

I'd generally agree, but do feel Rogue One is a bit of an exception - at least from my point of view - in that Giacchino had to basically set up one of the most strongest soundtracks in film, what with Rogue One leading directly into A New Hope as it does. I think it's clear from his choices in Rogue One's score that he wanted to set up many of the themes of A New Hope and the original trilogy but tried to pull back on outright stating them where he felt he could, and I guess it's this subversion that you either love or don't, but it worked for me for the most part. Sometimes, though, it's not necessarily subversion, but rather hinting at other characters or events without wanting to bring that character or event into the equation, such as how Obi-Wan's Theme gives nods to so much other Star Wars music without outright stating any of it. 

Giacchino also does some really cool stuff in the Rogue One to musically tie the Death Star as it is in A New Hope to Rogue One, and I think (at least off the top of my head?) that he's also the only Star Wars composer so far to reference original music from the animated series (The Clone Wars), which I really appreciated too. 

I think the thing for me is, I can understand where so many other Star Wars projects were coming from with their scores. For the original film, George requested a traditional symphonic score at a time when it was pretty much looked down upon; for Rogue One, whether you like it or not, I can understand the decisions behind Giacchino's score setting up - but trying to not be a collection of only - the music from A New Hope; for The Mandalorian, Favreau and Filoni wanted a cocktail of the legendary Morricone-Western scores of the 60's and Hayasaka-Samurai scores of the 50's. Where there has been new and original music, it's done a good job of either referencing Star Wars, or what inspired Star Wars. 

The Kenobi soundtrack so far, for me, hasn't done either of those, which is why @Ronnie I think it seems a pretty aimless so far -- because it doesn't sound like it's got strong foundations elsewhere. As such, it's pretty forgettable and is why I probably feel like it's screaming for something more familiar. 

2 hours ago, Cube said:

(Other soundtracks I found distracting include The Hobbit, Spider-man Homecoming and Doctor Strange).

Yeah, while I like his Rogue One score, Giacchino does have some weaker ones in his catalogue. I still really dislike the decision to have the MCU Spider-Man theme be a reworked version of the 60's cartoon song, because it's campy in the way that the 60's Batman song was campy.

And now I can't stop trying to imagine that song used as a launchpad for a theme in a modern, dark and gritty Batman film 

[Julius]

Watched through Part IV of Obi-Wan twice this morning.

Why are these episodes getting shorter?! This episode is 38 minutes long with a 2 minute recap and 4 minutes of credits! 

Spoiler

• love the bacta tank opening, the "duel" here between Obi-Wan and Anakin in their tanks is exactly the sort of thing I want from this show. Actually a little upset it wasn't longer or didn't delve into any flashbacks (maybe Boba's time in the tank is what made me want one)! 

• when Reva says "Obi-Wan is dead" to Leia in the interrogation room, I swear I heard a bit of an allusion to Anakin's Dark Deeds. Could be coincidental though? 

• everything on Jabiim (?) felt...very rushed. The end of the episode and later lines in the same scene make it feel like Roken was supposed to have a bit more of a presence or mini-arc in this episode. Same goes for everyone's new favourite character; the man, the myth, the legend: Wade. 

• T-47's woo

• like the idea of Obi-Wan taking a bit of time on the shuttle to get back up to speed with the Force. And we get to hear his theme used a bit more, which is nice too! 

• absolutely terrible liars on both sides haha

• that shot tracking the front of the shuttle until it landed looked super weird. 

• Star Wars is actually a capitalist fable of how doing your job poorly ends up with billions dying. So many of these imperials must have been unemployed for good reason before landing their jobs with the Empire!

• the Kamino-style rocking back and forth I mentioned before being used in Obi-Wan's Theme being used for the underwater parts on Nur makes perfect sense, bravo to the person who decided to slot it in here! Remember JW having a similar Kamino-esque nod on Ahch-To in TLJ, makes perfect sense to utilise that part of the theme here.  Love some of the fauna we see here too. 

• hope I'm not the only one who was convinced Obi-Wan was going to steal that stormtrooper's gear! 

• "is this a staring contest?" kid Leia has been and continues to be absolutely brutal. Poor Reva. 

• Tala sucks so hard at going undercover that it's kind of funny, almost like she has such low expectations in Imperial staff. "Hear we go, let me just sit over here at the furthest station from the door, be louder than a whisper, and put this comlink straight up to my mouth, not even attempting to hide it". Guy sitting to her right was the real spy all along though: completely ignoring the fact that he saw something questionable, would've heard Obi-Wan speaking (and kind of quietly shouting at one point) over the comlink, and not questioning Tala returning to her seat and that other officer nowhere to be seen. 

• love how on a second viewing Reva is tinkering with Lola a whole lot more than I think you'll realise on a first viewing. 

• that torture chamber seems amusingly massive. What, are they planning to torture a herd of Bantha? 

• the tomb of Jedi (and maybe just generally Force sensitives?) was pretty cool! Is that Coleman Kcaj on the right in the establishing shot you get of the room? Tera Sinube from Clone Wars?! Also that Padawan with his helmet killed me, such an important part of his character  wonder if this has anything to do with Palpy's experiments or is yet another way the Inquisitors keep trophies (you know, on top of all of the lightsabers lining their conference room). 

• thank goodness someone in this show can actually pick up on someone else lying, kind of surprised Tala gets away scot-free in the end, all things considered! 

• the shot of the lights going out in the torture chamber and the red hue in the dark, the lightsaber igniting, and Obi-Wan going ham on some stormtroopers was awesome. Bit weird that Obi-Wan ends up having to kind of hack away at the stormtroopers a few times with his lightsaber rather than seeing some clean strikes, but oh well, he's getting back into form (heh) at least. Didn't we see something similar in one of the Force Unleashed II trailers? 

• Obi-Wan's signature twirl is back! 

• I'm going to refer to the Reva's theme which hints at the Imperial March as Reva's Moody Stroll from now on, as we've only had it when she's strolling around in a mood 

• some people are going to complain about the windows underwater in the Fortress being useless once again and us getting a similar scene to Fallen Order here, but I love it, as it's absolutely in line with the same Empire that made two (kind of three? At least they laid the groundwork) Death Stars with pretty much identical weaknesses. The door isn't even airtight! Also funny how the Kamino-style part of Obi-Wan's Theme is pretty much confirmed here to just straight up be to be Water Theme™. 

• imagine we'll see a lot of complaints about Obi-Wan hiding Leia under a big coat, but that feels very Star Wars to me.

• two T-47's come in and absolutely wreck everyone in the hangar...okay. No-one even trying to give chase? Alrighty. 

• Fifth Brother jogging up and halfheartedly yelling "destroy them" when they're already on leaving was very funny to me, kind of like a cop arriving late to the scene and already being out of breath 

• RIP Wade, new best character.

• Reva vs T-47 and then throwing an explosive at it gave me huuuuuuuuuge Revenge of the Sith video game vibes! 

• that shot of Reva alone looking off at the T-47 was one of the nicest we've had in the show so far. 

• I'm all about pissed Vader. 

• on first viewing I was a bit confused about Reva saying she put a tracker on the ship, can't imagine I was the only one, especially when you find out after that it's actually Lola that she's used. 

• okay, but seriously, this is a weird edit: they're still within the clouds of Nur after Vader has turned up, Reva has said she's got a tracker on them, and no-one is giving immediate chase?! I know the plan after the meeting is to track them back to find out more about The Path, but it's very odd. It's made even weirder when earlier in the episode it was stated that Vader was not going to be here (as if he was you'd expect him to butt in after sending Obi-Wan's presence, and vice versa), yet in the time he turned up (I'd assume from his Castle on Mustafar) they're still within Nur's clouds? 

• "guess you're soldiers now after all" - jeez Tala, read the room, we're mourning the legendary Wade, the true catalyst behind the formation of the Rebellion; that was a ruthless retort after they said earlier that they weren't soldiers! 

• Leia holding Obi-Wan's hand got me feeling things. Would've been a perfect time to hunt at her theme, ahem 

Overall, quite liked this episode.

Yeah, okay, it's annoying that it was a short one, and I do think there were a few weird shots throughout, but nothing too crazy that I'm desperate to highlight. Felt like the action flowed a lot better this week too, a lot less shaky cam I think? I also think the music was much better this week than it was last week, as while I'm still missing the classic themes and think there were spots to use or hint at them, this episode felt like it leaned so much more on the new theme Williams composed for Obi-Wan, which I'm a fan of and hadn't really been the case, I felt, in earlier episodes. 

I've been up and down on the show, but still, I love seeing Ewan and Hayden back in action. Gutting that we've only got two episodes left, but it's also one of those rare instances where I don't know if I'd even want a second season, weirdly, other than to see Ewan and Hayden again?

Edited June 8, 2022 by Julius

[Hero-of-Time]

Just finished the 4th episode. I want to like this, I really do, but it's just not landing for me at all. The whole thing just seems meh at the moment. With two episodes left I'm hoping we get a big finale to salvage this for me.

Spoiler

It still baffles me how impersonal the message is at the start of ANH. Now that we know what Leia and Kenobi went through, that message just seems really off and weird. It would have been fine if the Leia arc ended after the first kidnapping but they've been through quite a bit together now. I got a good chuckle at this...

 

 

[Ronnie]

That was tons of fun, absolutely loved Part IV. Glad it's not just a series of meaningless kewl moments to hype some people up but rather they're taking their time to tell a more thoughtful story. The OT was never over the top action anyway, and this feels right at home in amongst that, and pretty much every scene had something for me to smile about.

Spoiler

Really love Tala and was dreading she'd get killed at some point, but somehow not.

Reva is great, loving her performance, especially her interrogation of Leia. Hope we get a bit more of her backstory though, they're kind of drip feeding it to us.

Vivien Lyra Blair continues to do great work given her age. Last shot with LOLA was cool. 

I will say though much as I'm enjoying Deborah's Chow's direction, I don't think she's particularly strong when it comes to fast paced action. Some weird choices when the T-47s came in. 

That said the bit in the corridor with the shattering glass was great. Really liking Obi-Wan's more laboured lightsaber swinging, (with the occasional flourish).

Jedi tomb is intriguing, they almost looked petrified, like how your expression is frozen in carbonite. Sure we'll see more of that down the line, if not in this series.

14 hours ago, Julius said:

• that shot of Reva alone looking off at the T-47 was one of the nicest we've had in the show so far. 

Totally agree. That was lovely.

14 hours ago, Julius said:

two T-47's come in and absolutely wreck everyone in the hangar...okay. No-one even trying to give chase? Alrighty. 

I think they said something about the base being locked down or something. Shrug.

 

Shame about Wade. 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Ronnie

[Julius]

15 hours ago, Hero-of-Time said:

Just finished the 4th episode. I want to like this, I really do, but it's just not landing for me at all. The whole thing just seems meh at the moment. With two episodes left I'm hoping we get a big finale to salvage this for me.

  Spoilers (Reveal hidden contents)

It still baffles me how impersonal the message is at the start of ANH. Now that we know what Leia and Kenobi went through, that message just seems really off and weird. It would have been fine if the Leia arc ended after the first kidnapping but they've been through quite a bit together now. I got a good chuckle at this...

 

 

Yeah, I totally get where you're coming from, and it's a sentiment I've seen going around a lot over the last few weeks. I think there have been some quality moments, but I don't think it's really come together as one cohesive and tightly packaged show so far, and while I'm holding out hope that things improve, with only two episodes left, even if it does I don't think I'll hold the show in the highest regard compared to other Star Wars shows and the films. 

Which is okay, it's just a bit disappointing. Of all of the Star Wars projects under Disney, this is by far the one we've had the most time to ponder over from initial rumblings to release, so I'm still a little stunned by some of the decisions made; for example, while I respect the hell out of Deborah Chow and think she's done some great work in Star Wars already, she was set up to do so and worked within someone else's structure. I feel like there are a few too many threads here to deliver on successfully for a six episode miniseries. 

I think this show needed either someone from a film background, or Dave Filoni needed to be more involved, my larger point being that it should have felt like a movie production which just so happened to be split into episodes rather than a TV production trying to feel like a movie; this should absolutely have been filmed on location (outside of California) rather than in The Volume. I feel like I say it about a lot of Star Wars projects, but Filoni wrote Obi-Wan for years across the animated shows, so of all of the people at Lucasfilm best positioned to have some input on this show - especially considering how he spoke to George at length about the prequels time and again! - it would be him. That he's only included in the end credits with a 'Special Thanks' boggles my mind a bit too, I know he's busy with lots of other things, but some of the stuff floating around from the writers of the show in interviews makes me wonder if they really were the best people for Star Wars; I mean, go look at Joby Harold's IMDb page, it's all over the place. 

As for your spoiler...

Spoiler

It's a tricky one, I feel.

I think Leia is absolutely the only way you can get Obi-Wan off Tatooine and away from his post of watching over Luke, and I actually think Vivien Lyra Blair and her portrayal of Leia is one of the better things about the show so far. Weird how they've kind of nailed that hardest part for me but kind of flopped and flailed about everywhere else. I think the show has made a stronger case for her calling her son "Ben", at least, and in fairness, her plea for help in IV was already made pretty iffy by the prequels and The Clone Wars (Obi-Wan was friends with and helped Bail, sure, but I'd never say he served under him?), but it does feel like I'm doing a bit of mental gymnastics to defend the approach the show has taken, rather the show itself taking a good approach?

I was saying to my friends the other day (they're not massive Star Wars fans by any stretch of the imagination, but one had been looking forward to Kenobi in particular as he enjoyed Ewan's performance in the prequels, and I kind of convinced the other) though that Obi-Wan going off-world and spending time with Leia was already really pushing it. Throw in what was surely a fakeout death (but absolutely framed like a death, what a weird decision) for the Grand Inquisitor, and Reva - a character running around in the galaxy who knows that Anakin is Vader was (note: prior to this, the only imperials who ever knew who Vader was were Palpatine, Tarkin, and Thrawn, and the latter two are super intelligent people who figured it out and never said it out loud!) and was seemingly even more dedicated than Vader in finding Obi-Wan, and successfully tracking him down? - and I think you've already pushed that boat out a bit too far.

Some will say "hey, they've got to write something and have some creative freedom!" -- sure, but you also need to understand the limitations you're working with when it comes to a story in a franchise like this. There were absolutely ways to tell this story without Reva knowing that Vader is Anakin, without the GI getting a fakeout death, or even without getting off Tatooine (still crazy that Obi-Wan gets off Tatooine in his show and Boba doesn't, think they mixed the scripts up ) or without involving Leia. 

I'm nervous for where the show ends up, and have been for a while, which goes beyond the pre-release excited nervousness.

I've said it before, but if Reva is heading towards some form of redemption, considering all they've done in the show so far, I'm worried she'll find out where Luke is and her redemptive act is to let him go (like, one of the only things that could redeem her in Obi-Wan's eyes I feel is to not kill the one he's supposed to be watching over but has been pulled away from)...at which point she has to die. There's no if's and/or but's about it, no-one can know where Luke is, and even if killed by Vader after this in a Jedi Fallen Order kind of way, having a character run around with that knowledge in the galaxy for a hot minute and going straight back to Vader also doesn't really work. 

And then there's Qui-Gon, something they set up in the first episode, Obi-Wan kind of channeled in the second episode when trying to find Leia and then finding a clone, but which we haven't heard anything about since. I always thought it would make sense for the show to follow Obi-Wan's journey from lost Jedi to finding his master again and ending when he reconnects with him, but at the same time, Qui-Gon never finished his training and so can't appear as a ghost outside of super Force sensitive locations -- that's why he's a voice in AOTC and screaming at Anakin for killing the men, the women, and the children too. My worry is that how could they dare resist to show Liam Neeson as a Force ghost if he returns? Which would then open up a can of worms in that the dead can now complete their training to be a Force ghost in the afterlife...and opens up a path to see Ben Solo again. 

It could just create a bit of a mess 

But yeah, as usual for me with Star Wars, a long post to essentially just say: see where you're coming from, I agree, hopefully they manage to pull something special off with the last two episodes 

11 hours ago, Ronnie said:

The OT was never over the top action anyway, and this feels right at home in amongst that

Funny you say that, because watching this episode I did start to think about how if you water it down to its essentials, it was very similar to the events on the Death Star in A New Hope. And this was Part IV of the show...

Spoiler

11 hours ago, Ronnie said:

I think they said something about the base being locked down or something. Shrug.

Yeah, maybe, but I'm just going to shrug it off too. Just think it was weirdly edited for Vader to be off-world, then be on-world, in the time it takes for them to leave Nur and no-one gives chase.

VIP privileges I suppose, they were more interested in securing the Fortress for Vader's arrival 

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by Julius

[Ronnie]

I made the mistake of reading Twitter replies but one stood out. How that person "doesn't care about Reva" and that he's "here to see Obi-Wan and Vader". I just find that kind of take baffling. Fair enough if you want to see more Vader but there's nothing wrong with introducing a major new character and giving them screen time. It's just a symptom of people seemingly wanting more of what they already know (not just Star Wars but films, tv shows, games) instead of something completely original and new. Almost everything is nostalgia driven these days, or at least relying on a property that's been successful in the past. This entire show is based on that, so when they do introduce something new like Reva, I personally welcome it.

[Julius]

1 hour ago, Ronnie said:

I made the mistake of reading Twitter replies but one stood out. How that person "doesn't care about Reva" and that he's "here to see Obi-Wan and Vader". I just find that kind of take baffling. Fair enough if you want to see more Vader but there's nothing wrong with introducing a major new character and giving them screen time. It's just a symptom of people seemingly wanting more of what they already know (not just Star Wars but films, tv shows, games) instead of something completely original and new. Almost everything is nostalgia driven these days, or at least relying on a property that's been successful in the past. This entire show is based on that, so when they do introduce something new like Reva, I personally welcome it.

I mean, the thing with any story is that people always come into it looking for different things, and that's only strengthened in a multigeneration story like Star Wars. I don't totally disagree with what they're saying and can absolutely see where they're coming from. 

There are two ways to take "I don't care about Reva" - it's either being flippant and reacting to not getting what they wanted (a show focused on Obi-Wan and Vader), or not actually caring about the character herself. Or both.

And to be honest, while I'm happy to have newly introduced characters - which is absolutely necessary, as while I love Mando, a lot of its cameos make the galaxy feel that bit smaller - I don't think they've done a stellar job with Reva so far in the show, period, so I can empathise with someone who didn't care about the character. That's not a knock against Moses Ingram's performance, or saying the character is pointless, but she didn't really feel like a character to me at all until Part IV, simply because her purpose prior to that was almost solely to move the plot along. She didn't really get a chance to be fleshed out in earlier episodes I feel, so her finally getting an opportunity to bounce off another character for longer than 30 seconds and who challenged her finally started to feel like getting a character more than a plot carrier. 

Further yet...

Spoiler

...I don't like the idea that we're heading straight towards some sort of lore or exposition dump or flashback in these last two episodes to justify her hatred of Obi-Wan, when we've only had the opening sequence of the show and her focusing on the Jedi symbol to really go off so far. Reva just hasn't been given much of a chance to breathe as a character beyond moving the plot forwards prior to Part IV, and I don't want to scream that this is a lazy writing decision, but it kind of is. 

As for being "here to see Obi-Wan and Vader", I mean, that's on the marketing, not the viewer, as even if it doesn't make any sense to think that they'll be in every scene together, not everyone's as into Star Wars as we are or tries to think about structuring, writing, and developing a story. 

Conscious decisions were made to show certain pieces of concept art, set photos, and the first recognisable statement of music in the teaser trailer was Battle of the Heroes. To me, at least, how they presented and marketed the show felt like it was heavily leaning on this idea that it was pretty much a sequel series to Episode III more than anything else. They've also had Hayden feature just as heavily as Ewan in the show's press run, which as a fan is absolutely awesome and I love seeing him get the love he's been getting from fans, but hasn't exactly been representative of his presence in the show to this point. 

So yeah, I can see where they're coming from, even if I can agree with you that I'm all for new Star Wars characters, I imagine for many it probably comes more from a place of frustration of their expectations for the series (in fairness, based on its marketing) than any attempt at understanding why Reva is around, why we haven't had more of Obi-Wan and Vader, etc. 

[Ronnie]

49 minutes ago, Julius said:

I mean, the thing with any story is that people always come into it looking for different things, and that's only strengthened in a multigeneration story like Star Wars. I don't totally disagree with what they're saying and can absolutely see where they're coming from. 

There are two ways to take "I don't care about Reva" - it's either being flippant and reacting to not getting what they wanted (a show focused on Obi-Wan and Vader), or not actually caring about the character herself. Or both.

And to be honest, while I'm happy to have newly introduced characters - which is absolutely necessary, as while I love Mando, a lot of its cameos make the galaxy feel that bit smaller - I don't think they've done a stellar job with Reva so far in the show, period, so I can empathise with someone who didn't care about the character. That's not a knock against Moses Ingram's performance, or saying the character is pointless, but she didn't really feel like a character to me at all until Part IV, simply because her purpose prior to that was almost solely to move the plot along. She didn't really get a chance to be fleshed out in earlier episodes I feel, so her finally getting an opportunity to bounce off another character for longer than 30 seconds and who challenged her finally started to feel like getting a character more than a plot carrier. 

Further yet...

  Reveal hidden contents

...I don't like the idea that we're heading straight towards some sort of lore or exposition dump or flashback in these last two episodes to justify her hatred of Obi-Wan, when we've only had the opening sequence of the show and her focusing on the Jedi symbol to really go off so far. Reva just hasn't been given much of a chance to breathe as a character beyond moving the plot forwards prior to Part IV, and I don't want to scream that this is a lazy writing decision, but it kind of is. 

As for being "here to see Obi-Wan and Vader", I mean, that's on the marketing, not the viewer, as even if it doesn't make any sense to think that they'll be in every scene together, not everyone's as into Star Wars as we are or tries to think about structuring, writing, and developing a story. 

Conscious decisions were made to show certain pieces of concept art, set photos, and the first recognisable statement of music in the teaser trailer was Battle of the Heroes. To me, at least, how they presented and marketed the show felt like it was heavily leaning on this idea that it was pretty much a sequel series to Episode III more than anything else. They've also had Hayden feature just as heavily as Ewan in the show's press run, which as a fan is absolutely awesome and I love seeing him get the love he's been getting from fans, but hasn't exactly been representative of his presence in the show to this point. 

So yeah, I can see where they're coming from, even if I can agree with you that I'm all for new Star Wars characters, I imagine for many it probably comes more from a place of frustration of their expectations for the series (in fairness, based on its marketing) than any attempt at understanding why Reva is around, why we haven't had more of Obi-Wan and Vader, etc. 

You make a lot of great points as ever. It's obviously hard to fully look into the Reva character given her arc isn't finished yet, so we'll see what the next two episodes bring. I personally like what they've shown of her and subtle hints at her backstory that will hopefully pay off. The tone of the overall comment from that person about "not caring about her" just sounded pretty flippant and typical of internet toxicity, but maybe I'm mis-judging. It just feels like people can be so singularly minded on bringing back legacy characters they don't give a chance to what's new. You talk about not fully being sold on Reva but at least you're open to being convinced. The comment I read couldn't have sounded more close-minded if it tried, imo.

Perhaps I just went into this show with lower expectations/hype, compared to seemingly the vast majority of SW fans (for various reasons), so maybe I'm enjoying it more because of that, who knows. 

It's interesting through that of the three live action Disney+ shows, that the one that introduced a brand new character with a storyline that's allowed to breathe and go places has been the most popular and the two shows that are based on legacy characters, with all the baggage that comes with that, have struggled to resonate with a lot of people. It makes me crave things like The Acolyte, or even Skeleton Crew now. Even Andor I feel like will feel so fresh and new and I think it's going to be Mando-level of popularity, or at the very least similar critical acclaim.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Ronnie

[Julius]

1 hour ago, Ronnie said:

It's interesting through that of the three live action Disney+ shows, that the one that introduced a brand new character with a storyline that's allowed to breathe and go places has been the most popular and the two shows that are based on legacy characters, with all the baggage that comes with that, have struggled to resonate with a lot of people. It makes me crave things like The Acolyte, or even Skeleton Crew now. Even Andor I feel like will feel so fresh and new and I think it's going to be Mando-level of popularity, or at the very least similar critical acclaim.

Yeah, honestly while watching Kenobi I've quickly got to the point of questioning now - two episodes away from being three different live-action series in - if the quality of Mando is an exception, rather than a sign of what we should expect? 

Every show is going to have its flaws, and while Mando has some moments I could probably point to such as a few moments of being poorly paced, having some janky writing, or things I hate about Tatooine's sand, but honestly it's so few and far between with that show that I don't care to really bring it up when looking at the series from a broader perspective. I feel like Kenobi and Boba, personally, have kind of been the inverse of this: I'm nitpicking to find things I love about it more so than I am to find flaws. 

I think there are many reasons for it too, but I don't think it's at all a coincidence that the one Dave Filoni was most involved in is almost universally the one which has been the best received. If you look at Bad Batch and The Clone Wars S7 too, I'd say those also turned out just as consistent as Mando has. I guess as well there's the fact that Filoni was working on Mando stuff and Favreau was too, and they kind of came together, and so we now have two sides which exchange ideas and talk things out. It's not production by committee, its storytelling by, well, telling a story. 

I think both Kenobi and Boba could have been great, I just think they've been handled incredibly poorly. It's not even like the sequels where we can point at production issues and churning out a huge blockbuster in two years when they could have done with three (let alone everything else!), these have seemingly had the time put in, but who the hell is looking over and signing off on these scripts and how these episodes turn out? 

I'm all for bringing more faces in to tell new Star Wars stories, but I think there have definitely been some growing pains outside of Mando, and it feels like they need someone - not the Story Group like it was before, an actual bonafide storyteller - to look over these shows a bit more attentively. Ahsoka is going to be a huge test for Dave but, assuming all goes well - and I think it will, as while there'll be some Mando stuff to tie in I'm sure, I'm positive he's otherwise had Rebels sequel plans written out for a good while now - I really hope we see him take on more and more responsibility as time goes on. We've said it before, but he just gets it in a way I don't think any other individual storyteller currently working at Lucasfilm does. 

We'll see how Andor turns out, but I agree and think it'll be a surprise bit (and I only say surprise because I've seen some a bit on the fence about a Rogue One prequel), and being shot on location and having the right staff - oh what's this? Movie people working on TV to make it look and feel like a movie? Who would've thought that'd be a great idea? - I'm pretty confident that it'll at least nail the scale of everything. The Acolyte I'm a little nervous about just given the period it's in, it's very bold to have the first big High Republic project that's not a published product be set at the end of that era and potentially have some foreshadowing or ties into the Saga (going off the title and the little we know about the premise at least). 

I want new stuff too, for sure, especially long form stuff, and I think it's a shame Rian's trilogy keeps getting pushed back, even if it's because of him having great success elsewhere. I'd love to see him have a trilogy of films set far away from the Skywalker Saga where he can do his thing without as much limiting his creativity or resulting in backlash because of how he treats certain characters. TLJ for me is the Star Wars film for me which is the most up and down (because I think the prequels are pretty consistent in terms of quality in each film), but I loved some of his ideas and some of what he was going for. 

[Ronnie]

21 minutes ago, Julius said:

I think both Kenobi and Boba could have been great, I just think they've been handled incredibly poorly. It's not even like the sequels where we can point at production issues and churning out a huge blockbuster in two years when they could have done with three (let alone everything else!), these have seemingly had the time put in, but who the hell is looking over and signing off on these scripts and how these episodes turn out? 

I'm all for bringing more faces in to tell new Star Wars stories, but I think there have definitely been some growing pains outside of Mando, and it feels like they need someone - not the Story Group like it was before, an actual bonafide storyteller - to look over these shows a bit more attentively. Ahsoka is going to be a huge test for Dave but, assuming all goes well - and I think it will, as while there'll be some Mando stuff to tie in I'm sure, I'm positive he's otherwise had Rebels sequel plans written out for a good while now - I really hope we see him take on more and more responsibility as time goes on. We've said it before, but he just gets it in a way I don't think any other individual storyteller currently working at Lucasfilm does. 

It's hard for me to line up with your way of thinking here because I've enjoyed both shows Boba Fett and Obi-Wan; yes they're of lesser quality than Mando, but so are a lot of shows out there, not just Star Wars ones. The second episode of Boba Fett is still incredible imo, that train heist and subsequent bits with the tribe? Fantastic. Chapter 4, Return of the Mando is still my favourite live action SW episode ever. And I've enjoyed where the story of Obi Wan has gone, I think I differ from where you're coming from in that storyline wise it's been good, it's just the execution and production, the little details here or there that's been a little strange/lacking. Lots of little issues here and there. I also think your pre-show concerns about this being a Volume-centric production when the story deserves a grander budget might have been correct. It's obviously a much more personal tale, no need for an epic scale or anything but an increase in budget and location work might have helped. We can maybe partially put that on Covid (Mando S2 completely dodged that bullet thankfully).

I definitely agree in terms of putting the right people in charge, people who have experience in the Hollywood like Tony Gilroy. It reminds me of weird casting choices in Mando like hiring all those comedians or MMA fighters, bizarre, and the result was often jarring. Whereas you hire someone excellent like Indira Varma and the quality shines.

One thing I'd like to point out though is that fans bringing expectation and hype into something is often a recipe for disaster with an original story. We saw it with the sequels and now with this show. I've asked plenty of mates, not huge Star Wars fans, what they thought of the sequels and they said they loved them. So I think it's that weight of expectation built over the years that can be a huge detriment. It's why subsequent re-watches of a lot of Mando episodes tend to paint them in much better light for me, once the realisation of what was actually happening (as opposed to what I expected or wanted to happen) had sunk in.

Also much as I would adore the long talked about trilogy from Rian Johnson, I just can't see it ever happening. The backlash against him personally, even if it's in the minority, would make it impossible I feel, unless a huge amount of time has passed. 

Also, recent interview quote from screenwriter Joby Harold on Reva:

Quote

“I love that Reva is this mystery box, so I try to speak to her as little as possible, and I’m going to keep it that way. But the notion of having a character that we don’t know on a legacy show where we do know everything and everybody is part of the fun of the show. So the less said about her, the better, considering there are very few people and places where you don’t know what’s happening.”

He makes a good point, in circumstances where the audience know a ton of context and backstory about almost everything, having a brand new character like Reva can feel jarring, and there will naturally be a clamour to know way more about her maybe?

Edited June 9, 2022 by Ronnie

[darksnowman]

37 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

It's hard for me to line up with your way of thinking here because I've enjoyed both shows Boba Fett and Obi-Wan; yes they're of lesser quality than Mando, but so are a lot of shows out there, not just Star Wars ones. The second episode of Boba Fett is still incredible imo, that train heist and subsequent bits with the tribe? Fantastic. Chapter 4, Return of the Mando is still my favourite live action SW episode ever. 

I got around to watching Book of Boba Fett a few weeks ago and enjoyed it plenty. Nice to see I'm not as alone on that as I thought because I made the mistake of having a look online to see what the general consensus was and was shocked to see the volume of negative feedback.  

I found the so-called slower stuff to be interesting and preferable to the finale. Why does everything always have to devolve into a destruction-fest?