Shirtstorm

[Goafer]

For those that have been living under a rock, last week the European Space Agency landed a probe on an asteroid travelling at 83,000mph, 300 million miles away. Pretty fucking radical you may say to yourself. What could possibly top that?

 

One of the scientists' shirt apparently.

 

 

In case it's not clear enough in the photo, it features 80's style pinup women all over it. Apparently that's bigger news to some people than the fact that this man assisted in landing a metal box on a fucking asteroid. A. FUCKING. ASTEROID.

 

Sure the shirt is hideous, but it's hardly offensive. They're not naked, hell they're not even that scantily clad. Women (quite rightly) are always saying they should be able to wear what they want in public without being belittled, but when a shirt featuring the very clothes they want to wear is worn by a man, all hell breaks loose. This video sums it up best:

 

 

A good article too

 

Silly little "outrages" like these detract from the real issues such as pay differences etc, much like the boy who cried wolf. Every time a "feminist" protests against something like this, it damages the real feminists' credibility when they protest something worth protesting.

 

What really boils my piss is that he gave a tearful apology for it. His monumental achievement, that the rest of us can only dream of achieving anything remotely close, is forever soured by the cretinous peasants that are somehow offended by a shirt. He has achieved something beyond comprehension, yet has been reduced to tears on TV for his choice of shirt. Fucking sickening.

 

I've actually decided that this man is my hero. His unconventional style shows that people who dress differently and cover themselves in tattoos can be just as intelligent (more so in this case) and "normal" as everyone else. But where are the people pointing that out?

Edited November 18, 2014 by Goafer

[Yvonne]

Nothing wrong with tattos. That's a pretty sexist shirt! that's really all there is to say

[Grazza]

Yeah, I couldn't agree more, @Goafer. This man contributed to mankind's greatest feat of space navigation, and he was reduced to tears by those who have contributed nothing. I was furious.

 

We could have a whole debate about feminism, but let me just say this - I'm an egalitarian. I believe in equal rights and respect for all, but so much of what I see leads me to believe that feminism is largely a Puritanical, anti-sexuality movement.

[Goafer]

Nothing wrong with tattos. That's a pretty sexist shirt! that's really all there is to say

 

You spelled sexy wrong.

 

(and Tattoos apparently)

[Yvonne]

haha oh yeah You know what I mean.

 

@Grazza there are a lot of examples to the contrary, Laci Green is a good one.

 

No ones saying he is bad at space, but I think someone with all those brains can probably think through a little PR and maybe wear something a little less tasteless.

 

As far as the argument for "better ways to spend energy" goes, don't worry, feminists have an infinite well of contempt to draw from!

 

also I wish people would stop calling things gate

[Goafer]

Yeah, I couldn't agree more, @Goafer. This man contributed to mankind's greatest feat of space navigation, and he was reduced to tears by those who have contributed nothing. I was furious.

 

Yup, and all the while Kim Kardashian still continues to have a "career" and act as a role model for loads of young women, despite only really having contributed nudity to the world. She's seen as a strong, independent woman whereas Matt Taylor, who is the very embodiment of achievement in my eyes, is seen as a vile pervert by some.

 

also I wish people would stop calling things gate

 

I've just discovered the term Shirtstorm and would have picked that if I'd known sooner.

[Yvonne]

Shirtstorm, haha that IS good!

 

It's possible to have more complex relationships with public figures than just love/hate. I don't disrespect the guy, but I do think he made a mistake, and the only response anyone is ever going to give to any criticism from a sexism viewpoint is blah blah feminists are terrible blah blah which I find pretty boring, without merit, and ignores any real discussion we could potentially have.

[Sheikah]

This guy has made no mistake and had no reason to apologise whatsoever.

 

The truth is, some people will always be offended by something; the kind of people who probably wouldn't be happy until everyone walked around wearing beige and not expressing themselves. Yes, the shirt depicts cartoon women scantily dressed. But you know what? So what. People bending to this level of bleeding heart bullshit actually offends me (and I'm sure others). So ultimately, he can piss off the cretins who flap over things like this by wearing the shirt or piss off the level-headed folks who see no issue whatsoever by being coerced into no longer wearing the shirt. It's just a shame he chose the latter.

[Goafer]

but I do think he made a mistake

 

The thing is, I don't.

 

Sure the shirt is a bit tacky, but he's hardly draped in porn. Someone pointed out that there's not even a midriff shown anywhere on the shirt. If that's what he wants to wear, they why shouldn't he? If he thinks he looks good in that and is happy to wear it to what should have been the proudest moment of his life, who are we to tell him he cant/shouldn't have?

 

I have felt uncomfortable with my tattoos on occasions, and felt a bit scruffy compared to my peers, so I guess that's why I described him as my hero in the OP. I was slightly exaggerating, but I do see him as a positive role model. He shows that outwards appearance doesn't really matter, just the skills you possess. It should have been a step towards not judging a book by the cover, but unfortunately that's all been missed by the masses, along with the historically colossal accomplishment of him and the rest of the team, and instead people have focused on what is essentially a piece of tacky 80's nostalgia.

[Ashley]

I think one of the arguments was jobs in these type of field (there's an acronym I'm forgetting but science, engineering etc) are dominated by males to the point of women feeling excluded and if you're a woman viewing that workplace from the outside (as we've done here) it (potentially) adds to that feeling of exclusion.

 

Also, it's fucking ugly.

 

...I think the acronym is STEM

Edited November 18, 2014 by Ashley

[Goafer]

I think one of the arguments was jobs in these type of field (there's an acronym I'm dithering but science, engineering etc) are dominated by males to the point of women felling excluded and if you're a woman viewing that workplace from the outside (as we've done here) it (potentially) adds to that feeling of exclusion.

 

I think this point was raised in the video I posted. Their answer was basically saying that if a shirt is stopping you from joining a team and furthering your career, you seriously need to reconsider your level of commitment.

 

Sure, feeling excluded is something that genuinely needs to be addressed, but seriously, a shirt?

 

Also, it's fucking ugly.

 

Why? Because of the women? Are you saying they're ugly? You mean you didn't think of the potential inner beauty they may possess? You make me sick.

[Sheikah]

After 4 years spent during my PhD I can safely say that there are far more women PhD students and Postdocs in life sciences (biology) in UCL in the main postgrad buildings than men. The reason the same isn't true for physics and engineering is because it's bloody boring. Seriously, I had to collaborate with multiple engineers in MechEng and they are an odd sort. It's so easy to look at numbers of both genders in specific departments and suggest there must be a fault with a system somewhere; it couldn't possibly be that women in general perhaps find other areas more interesting than others in which to pursue a career. I mean, it's not like there is disproportionate gender representation in other careers showing the flip side, amirite? Hello nursing, midwifery!

 

This post was not aimed at anyone btw, more a pent up response to an argument I have seen arise in the news on multiple occasions.

Edited November 18, 2014 by Sheikah

[Yvonne]

People seem to be getting quite upset, so I'll make this my last post on the matter.

 

He's in a position to be a role model to a lot of people, so I feel like he could have done better by them. I don't demand tears, I think a simple acknowledgement would have been sufficient. I'm a feminist, a person, not a cartoon villain trying to ruin everyone's fun.

The cool thing about people being free to express themselves is you can learn a lot about them and the world they live in by the way they choose to express themselves. He shouldn't be BANNED, FIRED, HIDDEN etc for wearing that shirt, but for a public figure to be above criticism? That's ludicrous, and I think getting worked up over me pointing out the shirt is a bad move if you want to look inclusive to women in science is a bit of an overreaction.

[Ashley]

I think this point was raised in the video I posted. Their answer was basically saying that if a shirt is stopping you from joining a team and furthering your career, you seriously need to reconsider your level of commitment.

 

Sure, feeling excluded is something that genuinely needs to be addressed, but seriously, a shirt?

 

 

 

Why? Because of the women? Are you saying they're ugly? You mean you didn't think of the potential inner beauty they may possess? You make me sick.

 

Too lazy, didn't watch.

 

I don't think it's going to be the straw that breaks it for anyone, but it's another thing. Much in the same way that catcalling is criticised as in isolation it may not seem like much (to some people) but the constant barrage makes it a problem.

 

Its just an ugly shirt. Too much going on, regardless of content.

[Grazza]

What I find obnoxious is the level of control the complainants want over him. You are free to dislike the shirt, but you should not be able to control what he wears.

 

And honestly, it's petty. This man has done nothing wrong. Complaining about the shirt is as small-minded as saying "he missed a bit whilst shaving" or "there was a biscuit crumb on the floor".

 

As for women being put off the sciences because of this shirt, I have a much higher opinion of women than that. It's as ridiculous as a man being intimidated because a woman has a George Clooney calendar or likes watching the Chippendales.

[Ashley]

As for women being put off the sciences because of this shirt, I have a much higher opinion of women than that. It's as ridiculous as a man being intimidated because a woman has a George Clooney calendar or likes watching the Chippendales.

 

In the wider context (gender equality in the workplace, societal views on women and the focus on their appearance) it's really not on the same level.

[Goafer]

People seem to be getting quite upset, so I'll make this my last post on the matter.

 

I don't think anyone is getting upset with you or your opinions. I think it's more aimed at the people who harassed him to the point of feeling he needed to apologise and break down in tears on TV.

 

Plus, if anyone is getting upset with you, it would be quite hypocritical really, seeing as this whole discussion is about how someone has the right to express themselves.

 

He's in a position to be a role model to a lot of people, so I feel like he could have done better by them. I don't demand tears, I think a simple acknowledgement would have been sufficient. I'm a feminist, a person, not a cartoon villain trying to ruin everyone's fun.

The cool thing about people being free to express themselves is you can learn a lot about them and the world they live in by the way they choose to express themselves. He shouldn't be BANNED, FIRED, HIDDEN etc for wearing that shirt, but for a public figure to be above criticism? That's ludicrous, and I think getting worked up over me pointing out the shirt is a bad move if you want to look inclusive to women in science is a bit of an overreaction.

 

A quick question: what were your thoughts when you first saw the shirt? Probably something along the lines of "sweet Christ, that's ghastly", but after that?

 

I personally thought (and still do) that it was a slightly tacky bit of 80's nostalgia. At no point did I think "That's a man who does kegstands and pounds sluts all day". I honestly can't see how anyone could be intimidated by that shirt when it's clearly being worn for it's 80'sness rather than "hurr hurr, titties".

 

And as mentioned before, if the only thing stopping you joining the team is a colleagues attire, are you really right for the job? Do the ESA really want to hire someone that would walk out over something so insignificant? Obviously any serious exclusion and harassment in the workplace is a different matter, but the shirt seems to be the hot topic at the moment so I'm going with that.

[Ashley]

I honestly can't see how anyone could be intimidated by that shirt when it's clearly being worn for it's 80'sness rather than "hurr hurr, titties".

 

And as mentioned before, if the only thing stopping you joining the team is a colleagues attire, are you really right for the job? Do the ESA really want to hire someone that would walk out over something so insignificant? Obviously any serious exclusion and harassment in the workplace is a different matter, but the shirt seems to be the hot topic at the moment so I'm going with that.

 

That is your interpretation though... If you know the style then yeah, you may see it as that but what if you don't? Did these awful shirts exist in other countries? Some of the people offended could be too young to know (uni graduates this year were born in 1992 after all).

 

I don't think you're doing this intentionally but your second point could be read as " this offended you but I think it's trivial, if it upsets you get a different job ". Again, I don't think that's what you're aiming at but could you see how it could be interpreted like that?

[Goafer]

That is your interpretation though... If you know the style then yeah, you may see it as that but what if you don't? Did these awful shirts exist in other countries? Some of the people offended could be too young to know (uni graduates this year were born in 1992 after all).

 

Even without knowing, it's still cartoon artwork. It's not exactly porn. It only takes common sense to see that it's not worn as a statement about gender politics, it's worn for it's overall style.

 

If the ESA is genuinely a hard place for women to work in, by all means address that, but focusing on something as small as a shirt just belittles genuine efforts for equality.

 

I don't think you're doing this intentionally but your second point could be read as " this offended you but I think it's trivial, if it upsets you get a different job ". Again, I don't think that's what you're aiming at but could you see how it could be interpreted like that?

 

True, and I was trying to avoid making it sound like that. Obviously genuine complaints should always be referred to a manager etc. But can you see how someone can be seen as unsuitable for the job if something like a workmate's choice of clothes (at least this level of "inappropriateness") is likely to cause a #shirtstorm?

 

BTW, this was mainly aimed at the people mentioned in the video who posted things about this being what drives women away from these roles. As mentioned in the video, if that's the only thing that drives you away from this sort of job, then you don't belong in it.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Goafer

[Beast]

This genuinely makes me want to scream so much! Every fucking time I hear about this, I just want to bitchslap these women into oblivion, it gets me that angry!

 

THE MAN IS WEARING A SHIRT! I've seen women wear shirts of other women snogging the faces of each other! What the heck are wrong with them?! Mankind has managed to send a bloody space probe on a bastard comet and all they give a shit about is his shirt? Right now, I'm extremely angry and disappointed in the human race right now (well, to anybody who actually kicked up a fuss about a stupid shirt). GET YOUR PRIORITIES STRAIGHT!

 

This right here is why I hate 'feminism'. I don't mind the actual meaning of the word when it's correctly used as women being equal to men, good or bad. However, I said 'feminism' like that because I don't know what they're called when it's just women finding any petty excuse to hate men. It comes off as jealous. A male managed to land a space object on a comet, a woman gets jealous and nitpicks. It's just PATHETIC!

 

I'd love to ask these women something: It's not okay for a man to wear a shirt depicting women (even though they're not scantily clad or naked, just posing and they're also animated) but it's perfectly fine to have half-naked men plastered on shopping bags? Yeah, thought so!

 

The way this world is going right now is straight to the fucking dogs! I'm not hating on women but just THOSE women who feel it's okay to bully a man who has achieved something remarkable for the human race only to put him down so badly, he's reduced to tears. In my book, that is bullying and I HATE bullies! They need a good slap! I'm all for equality no matter what race, gender, sexuality, disability, etc.

 

Stop being hyper-fucking-sensitive, grow the fuck up, live your life, be happy and fight for EQUALITY!

 

EQUALITY FOR THE WIN!

[Ashley]

How do you know the women that hate this shirt love the A&F bags?

[MoogleViper]

Has there actually been that many people complaining about his shirt? (I mean with regard to sexism; everybody should be complaining about how fucking awful it is.)

 

The only things I've seen are people complaining about people complaining about his shirt. It seems to be that a few people made the comment about how he should have worn a better shirt, and the internet blew up with overreaction.

[Ramar]

I hate how people are automatically assumed to be role models.. As if people aren't free to pick and choose who they look up to.

 

This guy has done nothing wrong in my opinion.

[Beast]

I've heard it all on Twitter (Facebook probably had the same too but I wouldn't know because I don't have it anymore). The complaints were crazy.

 

How do you know the women that hate this shirt love the A&F bags?

 

Because then where are their complaints and overreaction to it? The guy wears a shirt with women on it and the complaints are through the roof.

[bob]

Apparently his girlfriend gave the shirt to him and told him to wear it.

 

That's what I heard anyway.