2D vs. 3D Metroid

[Grazza]

IGN has done a series of discussions about Mario, Metroid and Zelda, and whether the 2D or 3D games are better in each series. I haven't watched the Mario one yet, but the one about Zelda is interesting, as is this one about Metroid:

 

 

Personally, I like them both, but think 2D is quite a lot better, if only because of Fusion and Zero Mission.

 

Apart from the 2D vs. 3D debate (there's room for both, in my opinion), the video is interesting in its analysis of how Metroid Prime was extremely high tech at the time, and was the last time Nintendo was at the top of its game in that regard. There is also talk about the lack of great single player experiences like that in general. Also, a bit about the much-desired (and evidently very real at one point) Metroid Dread.

[Wii]

There is room for both but 3D has yet to fully capture what Metroid is all about, so for that reason I voted 2D. That and Super Metroid is the greatest game of all time.

[Zechs Merquise]

There is room for both but 3D has yet to fully capture what Metroid is all about, so for that reason I voted 2D. That and Super Metroid is the greatest game of all time.

 

You clearly haven't played Metroid Prime! It captured the isolation, exploration, secret hunting and classic Metroid backtracking as well as any 2D Metroid game.

[Serebii]

You clearly haven't played Metroid Prime! It captured the isolation, exploration, secret hunting and classic Metroid backtracking as well as any 2D Metroid game.

Not to mention the horrific save system which is what drives me away from Metroid. :p

[Cube]

Not to mention the horrific save system which is what drives me away from Metroid. :p

 

I don't mind the Metroid save system too much. It's something you won't forget to do, unlike having the save in the menu (now that autosaving is common).

[Fierce_LiNk]

Not to mention the horrific save system which is what drives me away from Metroid. :p

 

 

The save system in Metroid isn't horrific at all. It would completely go against the nature and atmosphere of the game if you were simply allowed to save wherever you wanted. It's meant to be tough, a slog, a struggle to the next save point.

 

This is tough: 2D vs. 3D. In the end, I took the two pinnacle titles from both 2D and 3D (Super Metroid vs. Metroid Prime) and tried to compare them. In the end, I went for "both equally". For me, it's easier to navigate around a 2D World, but Prime has the awesome control scheme/better battles with the awesome first person view. Graphically, they're both fantastic but for different reasons. I loved the very first time you land on Talon IV in Prime (dat rain).

 

Too hard to choose one over the other. So, both.

 

On another note: 3D Zelda always wins for me.

[Ville]

Both. I started with the 3D games (MP 1-3), which are amazing. More recently, I've gone through the 2D ones (SM, M 1&2, Fusion), which are just as enjoyable. Still yet to play Other M, but I plan to change that soon...

 

Overall: great series, no matter on what platform and in what form. Moar pls.

[Wii]

You clearly haven't played Metroid Prime! It captured the isolation, exploration, secret hunting and classic Metroid backtracking as well as any 2D Metroid game.

 

Sorry but you're wrong, I've played all the Primes and I think they're great but I've explained this before. In 3D, more specifically first person, Samus loses her agility, speed and ability to perform certain moves from the 2D games. Metroid: Other M was on the right track.

 

If they could combine the best of M:OM and the best of Prime they'd be on to a real winner. Super Metroid is 20 years old and is still the greatest game of all time and I consider it to be perfect. Anything can be bettered but it's going to take a phenomenal effort.

[Retro_Link]

If they could combine the best of M:OM and the best of Prime they'd be on to a real winner. Super Metroid is 20 years old and is still the greatest game of all time and I consider it to be perfect. Anything can be bettered but it's going to take a phenomenal effort.

If they combined the best of Other M and the best of Metroid Prime, it would still be Metroid Prime :p

[Grazza]

I know we've debated something like this recently in the "Let's Discuss Metroid: Other M" thread (1st-person vs. 3rd-person), but I thought it was a good video regardless of the 2D vs. 3D debate.

 

To me, there has not yet been a 3D Metroid that quite captures the appeal of the 2D games. That said, I'm not sure it's even necessary (or possible) to do so. I think most important games series should be put into 3D, because that's where the cutting edge of technology is, but at the same time there are things about the 2D templates - with Mario, Metroid and Zelda - that remain valid and unique.

 

I wouldn't mind 3D Metroid staying 1st-person, but to me it's still very much like an FPS. If you think about the battles, you lock-on and dodge by circling and jumping (there's not much else you can do), whereas the 2D games are much more about positioning Samus, waiting for your moment, nipping into the right spot and unleashing your missiles.

 

Anyway, I really do think there's room for both, but I thought this was a good video just for the discussion about why they don't seem to make the 2D ones anymore, or even really make many games like the 3D ones.

[Serebii]

 

The save system in Metroid isn't horrific at all. It would completely go against the nature and atmosphere of the game if you were simply allowed to save wherever you wanted. It's meant to be tough, a slog, a struggle to the next save point.

 

This is tough: 2D vs. 3D. In the end, I took the two pinnacle titles from both 2D and 3D (Super Metroid vs. Metroid Prime) and tried to compare them. In the end, I went for "both equally". For me, it's easier to navigate around a 2D World, but Prime has the awesome control scheme/better battles with the awesome first person view. Graphically, they're both fantastic but for different reasons. I loved the very first time you land on Talon IV in Prime (dat rain).

 

Too hard to choose one over the other. So, both.

 

On another note: 3D Zelda always wins for me.

Metroid's save system is fine in the 2D games, but in the 3D games it's horrifically antiquated and just doesn't fit. I had instances where I was exploring for an hour, died, lost all that progress. Had other times where I explored for a bit, there were no nearby save stations and I had to stop playing, so I traipsed back to the last one, and when I restarted, all the enemies had respawned (as they do) making all that exploration and progress useless.

[Oxigen_Waste]

Metroid's save system is fine in the 2D games, but in the 3D games it's horrifically antiquated and just doesn't fit. I had instances where I was exploring for an hour, died, lost all that progress. Had other times where I explored for a bit, there were no nearby save stations and I had to stop playing, so I traipsed back to the last one, and when I restarted, all the enemies had respawned (as they do) making all that exploration and progress useless.

 

You say that like it's a bad thing.

[Serebii]

You say that like it's a bad thing.

To have over an hour's play rendered void? Of course it is.

[Oxigen_Waste]

To have over an hour's play rendered void? Of course it is.

 

I happen to enjoy actually meaningful punishment for failure. It's part of why I loved MP and one of the biggest reasons I love the Souls games.

[Ville]

@Serebii It's not like the Prime games are even that difficult, I've played through the whole trilogy and had no such problems like you described. Smart saving = no headaches.

[Retro_Link]

Yeah I can't remember having problems like that either, I thought the save stations were quite fairly spaced out, and tbh I loved the challenge of getting between them and the feeling you have one you arrive at one having been exhausted in battle along the way.

 

Golden Morph Ball for @Serebii

[Wii]

@Serebii It's not like the Prime games are even that difficult, I've played through the whole trilogy and had no such problems like you described. Smart saving = no headaches.

 

Echoes is easily the most difficult Prime. Maybe it's easier in Trilogy with the improved controls but that spider enemy near the end maybe even the end, I'm going off memory and it was roughly 10 years ago so. It's the one enemy I remember most from the game, nightmare.

[Fierce_LiNk]

If they combined the best of Other M and the best of Metroid Prime, it would still be Metroid Prime :p

 

No it wouldn't, because the platforming sections in Other M are pretty good actually, far better than they're done in Prime. Although, in fairness to Prime, it doesn't quite work as easily as it's not as easy to judge the distance between jumps...as you can't see your feet or whole body.

 

Other M and Prime are very different. Other M is probably the closest we've got to the 2D games (particularly Fusion) in 3D. The platforming elements are great, as are the sections where you have to use Samus' special abilities. It works well. Imo, better than it does in Prime. What Prime does well is actually create better worlds, they seem more alive and visceral. So, different. I like them both immensely.

 

Metroid's save system is fine in the 2D games, but in the 3D games it's horrifically antiquated and just doesn't fit. I had instances where I was exploring for an hour, died, lost all that progress. Had other times where I explored for a bit, there were no nearby save stations and I had to stop playing, so I traipsed back to the last one, and when I restarted, all the enemies had respawned (as they do) making all that exploration and progress useless.

 

I happen to enjoy actually meaningful punishment for failure. It's part of why I loved MP and one of the biggest reasons I love the Souls games.

 

I have to agree with OxyWaste with this one, Serebii. Prime's save system works absolutely fine. Yes, it will be frustrating at times, but it needs to be that way, otherwise it's just an absolute stroll through the park. It's a struggle, you are meant to be on your knees by the time you arrive at the next save point.

 

Plus, nothing is ever useless in Prime. If you died right before a save point, in theory you should get through it next time as you've already been through it once and know what to expect. It's a very rewarding experience because even something as small as a save station is seen as a treasure or a sanctuary.

[Grazza]

The Prime games are difficult. Particularly in regards to the save point situation, I'd say there is one unreasonable stretch in the Phazon Mines. That said, I don't fundamentally dislike the system; it just varies with each game design.

 

Other than that, some of the bosses are difficult, like Meta Ridley, the Metroid Prime itself and, most of all...

 

Echoes is easily the most difficult Prime. Maybe it's easier in Trilogy with the improved controls but that spider enemy near the end maybe even the end, I'm going off memory and it was roughly 10 years ago so. It's the one enemy I remember most from the game, nightmare.

 

...this chap, the Spider Guardian. Apparently they did indeed make it easier on Wii, but it was ridiculously frustrating on GameCube.

[The Bard]

The save system in Metroid isn't horrific at all. It would completely go against the nature and atmosphere of the game if you were simply allowed to save wherever you wanted. It's meant to be tough, a slog, a struggle to the next save point.

 

This is tough: 2D vs. 3D. In the end, I took the two pinnacle titles from both 2D and 3D (Super Metroid vs. Metroid Prime) and tried to compare them. In the end, I went for "both equally". For me, it's easier to navigate around a 2D World, but Prime has the awesome control scheme/better battles with the awesome first person view. Graphically, they're both fantastic but for different reasons. I loved the very first time you land on Talon IV in Prime (dat rain).

 

Too hard to choose one over the other. So, both.

 

Forever this.

 

I had a long talk with Goron and Fused King on the podcast about what makes Metroid what it is. By design it forces you to create a visuospatial map in your head of where important points in the world are located. That's the mechanism by which it works. Why else would it be fun to get a new power, if it didn't give you a eureka moment when you realise that it can be applied to all these places you remember going to but couldn't access? By not holding your hand, it forces you to pay attention, which is very rare in games. To give you the ability to save anywhere would fly in the face of that completely.

[Fierce_LiNk]

 

Forever this.

 

I had a long talk with Goron and Fused King on the podcast about what makes Metroid what it is. By design it forces you to create a visuospatial map in your head of where important points in the world are located. That's the mechanism by which it works. Why else would it be fun to get a new power, if it didn't give you a eureka moment when you realise that it can be applied to all these places you remember going to but couldn't access? By not holding your hand, it forces you to pay attention, which is very rare in games. To give you the ability to save anywhere would fly in the face of that completely.

 

I saw an awesome, awesome, awesome video once about Super Metroid's level design and how you essentially fill in the blanks yourself. The game never actually teaches you anything. You're left in the world and are forced to figure things out for yourself. I'll try and dig it up, but the level design in that game is so intrinsic and detailed, yet very subtle. There's never an in-your-face moment that patronises the gamer, it gets the tone just right.

 

I would murder all of your Mothers to just be able to play another Metroid game in the style of Super Metroid, with that tone, level design, detail and playability. How amazing would it be on 3DS, with one of the screens operating as your map all the time or showing your abilities/missile count, etc. Mindblown that Nintendo didn't do one for the DS...just...wutt?