Should Nintendo go 3rd party?!

[Hero-of-Time]

Yep real change will require many steps to be taken and a willingness and acceptance that the company needs to adapt to what is happening around them.

 

A lot of people are thinking that this means that Nintendo have to go all grey and blood N guts but this isn't the case.

 

@Goron_3 has mentioned numerous times that they need to let the western branch do there own thing and let them scout talent to create games that will appeal to a western audience. Nintendo of Japan can still pump out the colourful games we all know and love but they need some diversity.

 

This is a big reason why I was so bummed about Retro working on another DKC game. The studio that reimagined the Metroid series could be creating a game that would appeal to the western audience but instead they are working on another platforming game, which the Wii U simply doesn't need at this time.

 

It will be good and I will be buying it day one but it seems like a missed opportunity to me.

[Serebii]

A lot of people are thinking that this means that Nintendo have to go all grey and blood N guts but this isn't the case.

 

@Goron_3 has mentioned numerous times that they need to let the western branch do there own thing and let them scout talent to create games that will appeal to a western audience. Nintendo of Japan can still pump out the colourful games we all know and love but they need some diversity.

 

This is a big reason why I was so bummed about Retro working on another DKC game. The studio that reimagined the Metroid series could be creating a game that would appeal to the western audience but instead they are working on another platforming game, which the Wii U simply doesn't need at this time.

 

It will be good and I will be buying it day one but it seems like a missed opportunity to me.

You say that, but look at how well Metroid Prime did. Was it a good game? Sure. Did it have mainstream appeal? No.

 

As annoyingly sad as it is, those things you listed are what have western appeal. Has to have a "gritty" story, lots of cutscenes and decent gameplay if you're lucky.

 

Anyway, that article has some flaws. For example, with their EA source

Nintendo was dead to us very quickly," one EA source told me when asked about why the publisher fell out with Nintendo so soon after committing to the system.

"It became a kids IP platform and we don't really make games for kids. That was pretty true across the other labels too. Even the Mass Effect title on Wii U, which was a solid effort, could never do big business, and EA like Activision is only focused on games that can be big franchises"

That's an attempt at justification. Mass Effect 3 on Wii U didn't do well due to the fact it was full priced almost a year after initial release, and was released after Mass Effect trilogy on 360/PS3 which contained all three games at the same price as Mass Effect 3 on the Wii U. I'm not saying it would have sold amazingly if those factors didn't exist, but to ignore them is negligent and trying to prove a point that is not necessarily true. Far more likely is the whole Origin spat that leaked out.

 

The article does make many good points, and Nintendo does need to sort things out like western developer relations, but the article too is pushing for smartphone crap. We just need to wait and see, but we can guarantee it won't be that and it won't be third party.

[Hero-of-Time]

The article does make many good points, although it too is pushing for smartphone crap. We just need to wait and see, but we can guarantee it won't be that and it won't be third party.

 

Of course Nintendo won't. This thread is about SHOULD they go 3rd party, not WILL they go.

 

I never said Retro should release Metroid, rather that they have shown they can make realistic looking games and those has far more appeal to a the western gamer.

[liger05]

A lot of people are thinking that this means that Nintendo have to go all grey and blood N guts but this isn't the case.

 

@Goron_3 has mentioned numerous times that they need to let the western branch do there own thing and let them scout talent to create games that will appeal to a western audience. Nintendo of Japan can still pump out the colourful games we all know and love but they need some diversity.

 

This is a big reason why I was so bummed about Retro working on another DKC game. The studio that reimagined the Metroid series could be creating a game that would appeal to the western audience but instead they are working on another platforming game, which the Wii U simply doesn't need at this time.

 

It will be good and I will be buying it day one but it seems like a missed opportunity to me.

 

Correct. Change doesnt mean a complete overhaul of software it just means we need to see a broader range of software.

 

Not quite sure why anyone wouldnt want to see this. As the article mentions Nintendo need to build there own audience and not hope to see it emerge from third parties.

[Serebii]

Of course Nintendo won't. This thread is about SHOULD they go 3rd party, not WILL they go.

 

I never said Retro should release Metroid, rather that they have shown they can make realistic looking games and those has far more appeal to a the western gamer.

I know, and the answer to that is a resounding no :p

 

I just hate how gaming has become at the moment, especially for western gaming taste. It has become far more about presentation than gameplay and that is quite depressing. People suggesting Nintendo follow that route...I just don't get how they can think that. But to each their own. I'd just rather Nintendo stick with what they do, even if it makes them niche, than see them turn like that.

[liger05]

I know, and the answer to that is a resounding no :p

 

I just hate how gaming has become at the moment, especially for western gaming taste. It has become far more about presentation than gameplay and that is quite depressing. People suggesting Nintendo follow that route...I just don't get how they can think that. But to each their own. I'd just rather Nintendo stick with what they do, even if it makes them niche, than see them turn like that.

 

Care to share some examples?

 

It's all subjective. Many would argue they hate how Nintendo has become but for me the most important thing is you cannot ignore the market and trends. You cant fight against the way the tide is turning, you simply have to adapt and embrace to stay ahead of the curve or you die.

Edited January 22, 2014 by liger05

[Agent Gibbs]

Retro are making what looks like an awesome game but i think letting them chart their own course would have been better, or certainly needs doing now

 

what are everyone's thoughts on new Hardware, it keeps getting mentioned that they should release something now, but thats just impractical surely.....but then reducing the WiiU lifecycle and replacing it sooner is surely something they are going to do, and in the interim give it a crutch to limp on

 

regarding @ Serebi's post.....Yes to me it seems in a lot of instances gameplay has become secondary to cinematic experiences, and ninty have gone the other route gameplay over cinematic experiences....but surely if anyone can do it, nintendo could find that balance and get that nice mid point of style and substance if they tried a western flare to some of their works?

 

Nintendo have always done the impossible, always shown that the little guy can fight back, surely they can do it right?

Edited January 22, 2014 by Agent Gibbs

[Daft]

More about presentation than gameplay? I don't understand this.

[Hero-of-Time]

I know, and the answer to that is a resounding no :p

 

I just hate how gaming has become at the moment, especially for western gaming taste. It has become far more about presentation than gameplay and that is quite depressing. People suggesting Nintendo follow that route...I just don't get how they can think that. But to each their own. I'd just rather Nintendo stick with what they do, even if it makes them niche, than see them turn like that.

 

It's just the way the market is. They do need to adapt though and remaining niche could have far worse consequences than trying to follow the market.

 

Miyamoto once said he could have made Halo. Time to prove it.

[Serebii]

Retro are making what looks like an awesome game but i think letting them chart their own course would have been better, or certainly needs doing now

 

what are everyone's thoughts on new Hardware, it keeps getting mentioned that they should release something now, but thats just impractical surely.....but then reducing the WiiU lifecycle and replacing it sooner is surely something they are going to do, and in the interim give it a crutch to limp on

 

They did chart their own course. They decided to do Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze. Nintendo didn't force them

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2013/06/retro_chose_donkey_kong_over_metroid_as_its_first_wii_u_title

 

 

New hardware before 2016 (absolute earliest) would be more detrimental than useful. It's the Sega situation. It erodes consumer faith in Nintendo, and that is what Nintendo needs to have the most.

[liger05]

Retro are making what looks like an awesome game but i think letting them chart their own course would have been better, or certainly needs doing now

 

what are everyone's thoughts on new Hardware, it keeps getting mentioned that they should release something now, but thats just impractical surely.....but then reducing the WiiU lifecycle and replacing it sooner is surely something they are going to do, and in the interim give it a crutch to limp on

 

regarding @ Serebi's post.....Yes to me it seems in a lot of instances gameplay has become secondary to cinematic experiences, and ninty have gone the other route gameplay over cinematic experiences....but surely if anyone can do it, nintendo could find that balance and get that nice mid point of style and substance if they tried a western flare to some of their works?

 

Nintendo have always done the impossible, always shown that the little guy can fight back, surely they can do it right?

 

They can’t release a console now. A new console can’t be built straight away, it takes time and its far more important that Nintendo release the right product next time around so I would hope that means talking to third party developers, building modern online network and releasing a console which could stand next to its rivals.

 

That can’t be done overnight so for now they just need to plod along with the Wii U for at least 2 more years. Now if retailers pull it from stores then that puts a complete new perspective on things as Nintendo would have to kill the Wii U.

[Serebii]

Care to share some examples?

 

It's all subjective. Many would argue they hate how Nintendo has become but for me the most important thing is you cannot ignore the market and trends. You cant fight against the way the tide is turning, you simply have to adapt and embrace to stay ahead of the curve or you die.

Off the top of my head from last year.

 

The Last of Us.

 

Stunning game. Decent graphics & presentation, with a story that hooks you. However, the gameplay...at least to me...was woefully mediocre. It would have made a brilliant movie, but for a game? No.

 

Grand Theft Auto V

 

Decent story, and it definitely held the game together and the presentation was strong. However, so many missions in it were just drive from A to B while the characters discussed the story, then much of the actual narrative occurred in cutscenes. The actual missions it had were great, but there were far too few.

 

Hell, even Assassin's Creed 4 was somewhat like this in a lot of places. Just sit and follow people while they discuss the story, and then stab them.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Serebii

[liger05]

Off the top of my head from last year.

 

The Last of Us.

 

Stunning game. Decent graphics & presentation, with a story that hooks you. However, the gameplay...at least to me...was woefully mediocre. It would have made a brilliant movie, but for a game? No.

 

Grand Theft Auto V

 

Decent story, and it definitely held the game together and the presentation was strong. However, so many missions in it were just drive from A to B while the characters discussed the story. The actual missions it had were great, but far too few.

 

Hell, even Assassin's Creed 4 was somewhat like this in a lot of places. Just sit and follow people while they discuss the story, and then stab them.

 

I’m not sure those flaws you speak of can then be used to describe the whole of western gaming as being ‘presentation over gameplay’. Surely they would just be flaws you see in a how the game has been developed.

[Serebii]

I’m not sure those flaws you speak of can then be used to describe the whole of western gaming as being ‘presentation over gameplay’. Surely they would just be flaws you see in a how the game has been developed.

Didn't say they were flaws. I said that is how gaming is shifted, and you just have to look at all the GOTY threads from recent months across the Internet. Few people mention the gameplay in regards to those games. Typically it's presentation, narrative, atmosphere etc.

[Daft]

The Last of Us wasn't about the gameplay or the presentation; it was about the gameplay AND the presentation. It was a brilliant game because of how those two aspects were married together. Judging them individually would be missing what made the game great.

 

As for the narrative mostly taking place in cutscenes, well that would depend on what you defined as narrative. Most of it was constructed outside of non-interactive cutscenes, though.

[Agent Gibbs]

New hardware before 2016 (absolute earliest) would be more detrimental than useful. It's the Sega situation. It erodes consumer faith in Nintendo, and that is what Nintendo needs to have the most.

 

No that is a very good point, the WiiU is too early in its lifecycle to be replaced before December 2015-Q1 2016......but

 

Now if retailers pull it from stores then that puts a complete new perspective on things as Nintendo would have to kill the Wii U.

 

that is a worrying prospect if nobody stocked it except say their own online stores and perhaps a partnered sales company then that would be unimaginably bad....but surely in such a situation with less distribution they could reduce costs and pass that on to consumers so they could have a ladder to get out of that hole a little

 

The Last of Us wasn't about the gameplay or the presentation; it was about the gameplay AND the presentation. It was a brilliant game because of how those two aspects were married together. Judging them individually would be missing what made the game great.

 

As for the narrative mostly taking place in cutscenes, well that would depend on what you defined as narrative. Most of it was constructed outside of non-interactive cutscenes, though.

 

I think what Serebi is wording badly is something that is certainly true about the last of us, its a 60/40 split gameplay/cinematic story, and the gameplay is very recycled from uncharted...but thats not to say the gameplay is terrible its just obvious they applied more polish to the story they wanted to tell (and boy what a story)

 

The last of us is a poor example of the point he's making that western developers and even some japanese developers have this gen/last gen focused on asthetics over gameplay

I think the best example is Squaresoft and the Final Fantasy series, it went from the liked of Final Fantasy 9 and 10 where they had great and timeless styles with long varied gameplay and (certainly 9 more than 10) a lack of linearity. Then 12 we'll ignore because it had its owne problems of certain individuals screwing with the story and thats the only thing that let that down....but the Nova Crystalis series - 13,13-2, and LR-13, although they tried to improve it was obvious the emphasis moved away from great gameplay, graphics and story telling to Graphics > Gameplay/Story

 

The fear he's obviously stating is Nintendo will try to emulate this and go from perfecting 2d/3d platforming (as an example) and focusing on story

can you imagine a next gen mario focusing on story!

 

that said...(opening that can'o worms) Pokemon given a HD treatment done in a NiNoKuni vein is what i'd expect from nitnendo so its swings and roundabouts, fears and hopes

 

we just don't know, and i think Nintendo need to gamble, because right now they are stagnating, change is needed

[liger05]

that is a worrying prospect if nobody stocked it except say their own online stores and perhaps a partnered sales company then that would be unimaginably bad....but surely in such a situation with less distribution they could reduce costs and pass that on to consumers so they could have a ladder to get out of that hole a little

 

Could you imagine the PR if retailers on mass announced they were no longer stocking the console. That alone would turn consumers off as you are then buying a product which is 'dead'. Sure Nintendo could sell from there own store but who would buy the product and secondly you need retail presence.

 

Shelf space is what allows your products to be seen and many of us would already have seen how damaging thethe little space the wii u gets right no is.

[Goron_3]

'Cinematic' games have only recently become a thing, and the Last of Us is probably the best example of it. Nintendo's lack of Western focus started after the release of Perfect Dark (remember when Nintendo owned the console FPS market?). Many of their western development teams disbanded soon after they got Gamecube tech and of course, Rare went Microsofts way. I also believe that Reggie does not have a place on Nintendo's ultimate decision making board, unlike his predecessors, and ultimately Nintendo's focus on Japan has hurt them for the last decade or so. If you look at the games that have been huge in the west over the years, they've been FPS's, Third person action titles and sports games. You look at the majority of Nintendo's library and it's no wonder people are jumping onto other consoles.

 

I do agree with @Serebii's point though in that many games aren't purely focused on gameplay and are trying to be more cinematic, but that's not Nintendo's problem. If anything, you could claim that those games are much more immersive, but each to their own.

 

Oh man, I wish Retro had the bond license...imagine a true Goldeneye sequel at the launch of Nintendo's next console.

[Jonnas]

I think Serebii is talking more about games that are trying way too hard to emulate western trends, but do so in a very shallow manner.

 

Personally, I think that a criminal example of this trend is Resident Evil 6 (Yes, act like a hollywood summer blockbuster with QTE, will you?). That focus on presentation over actual game substance is what he's on about, even though he listed games that actually found a good balance.

 

And there's no denying that a lot of what's generally praised in recent times has more to do with plot, narrative and presentation than gameplay substance.

[liger05]

I think Serebii is talking more about games that are trying way too hard to emulate western trends, but do so in a very shallow manner.

 

Personally, I think that a criminal example of this trend is Resident Evil 6 (Yes, act like a hollywood summer blockbuster with QTE, will you?). That focus on presentation over actual game substance is what he's on about, even though he listed games that actually found a good balance.

 

And there's no denying that a lot of what's generally praised in recent times has more to do with plot, narrative and presentation than gameplay substance.

 

But that doesnt mean Nintendo have to do that. For me they just need to embrace the genre of games western gamers like. The FPS, racers, sports titles etc.

[Serebii]

I think Serebii is talking more about games that are trying way too hard to emulate western trends, but do so in a very shallow manner.

 

Personally, I think that a criminal example of this trend is Resident Evil 6 (Yes, act like a hollywood summer blockbuster with QTE, will you?). That focus on presentation over actual game substance is what he's on about, even though he listed games that actually found a good balance.

 

And there's no denying that a lot of what's generally praised in recent times has more to do with plot, narrative and presentation than gameplay substance.

Exactly.

 

QTEs are the worst thing to happen to gaming.

 

Also, I play games to play games. If I have to sit watching a cutscene for more than 120 seconds in one sitting, I'm not a happy chap.

 

I remember getting the Assassin's Creed 3 DLC. That frustrated me so much. Cutscene. Load gameplay. Walk for 15 seconds. Cutscene. Load Gameplay. Walk for 30 seconds. Cutscene.

 

But that doesnt mean Nintendo have to do that. For me they just need to embrace the genre of games western gamers like. The FPS, racers, sports titles etc.

FPS games are quite guilty of this also. A to B. Shoot a few people. Cutscene. B to C. Cutscene.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Serebii
Automerged Doublepost

[Hero-of-Time]

@Serebii Blame Shenmue for rise of QTEs and to a certain extent Resident Evil 4 both of which were Japanese made.

[Jonnas]

But that doesnt mean Nintendo have to do that. For me they just need to embrace the genre of games western gamers like. The FPS, racers, sports titles etc.

 

FPS is definitely a genre in need of some revitalization, but even Retro ran out of ideas with the Metroid Prime series. Nintendo (or anyone) should fetch the leftovers from Free Radical, have them make a splash.

 

The thing about racers and sport titles (genres that Nintendo already has covered) is not that they're popular genres per se: it's the licenses that make them popular more than anything else. Do you play Fifa to play Football, or do you play Fifa to play as your favourite team? Ditto for racing, where the popular mainstream racing games are more about real brands and machines.

 

Blame Shenmue for rise of QTEs and to a certain extent Resident Evil 4 both of which were Japanese made.

 

Blame them for their creation. Shenmue had nothing to do with their rising popularity (though Resi 4 and Batman certainly did).

 

Regardless of who came up with this stuff first, it's the "western" thing to use them, these days, no denying that.

[Hero-of-Time]

I hated them in Resident Evil. It cheapened a lot of the fights.

[Goron_3]

This thread should just be called the 'Let's talk about Nintendo' thread