Ellmeister Posted February 20, 2013 Posted February 20, 2013 You mentioned the Champions League. Is this where i come in and... I was merely disagreeing with Jonst's point. It wasn't a pissing contest with crapperpool.
Ramar Posted February 20, 2013 Posted February 20, 2013 (edited) There was a good post on Reddit by a guy who has been supporting Arsenal for 40 years, who said that basically this 8 year drought is nothing special, and current supporters were a bit spoilt by the massive success 10+ years ago. He put it better than me. He's got a point. However the club has changed considerably in the last 10 years. We went from having a team that went 49 games unbeaten to struggling to finish 4th. We entered a phase to move to a new stadium to ensure we could continue to stay at the top. It hasn't happened and fans have been literally paying the price. I think a lot of people have now had enough of ponying up top dollar for a sub standard team. There's a current lack of ambition and direction from the very top. From the majority owner, to CEO to the manager. In what competition has finishing fourth ever been good enough? Edited February 21, 2013 by Ramar
Jon Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) I forgot to include domestically in that statement. Chelsea did win the Champions League but its foolish to try and compare that team to the invincibles. You can't take what Chelsea achieved away from them but it's fairly consensus view that Chelsea were pretty lucky. I've never seen a team play so badly yet still scramble through each round. A bit like our cup win against Utd on pens, completely outplayed but we still managed to sneak it. You just managed to repeat this round after round Edited February 21, 2013 by Jon
Fierce_LiNk Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 I forgot to include domestically in that statement. Chelsea did win the Champions League but its foolish to try and compare that team to the invincibles. You can't take what Chelsea achieved away from them but it's fairly consensus view that Chelsea were pretty lucky. I've never seen a team play so badly yet still scramble through each round. A bit like our cup win against Utd on pens, completely outplayed but we still managed to sneak it. You just managed to repeat this round after round Chelsea did what was necessary to win. Yes, they defended well, but if they had gone to the Nou Camp and the Allianz Arena and played open and expressive attacking football, they would have been torn to bits. Maybe Arsenal should have set themselves up a bit better defensively when Bayern visited the other night... The knockout stages of the Champions League are exactly that. You take it game by game, doing whatever you have to in order to win it. Let's not forget that Chelsea were also doing this with an interim manager, since they sacked AVB earlier in the season. He wouldn't have had much time to get the team playing good football or the way that he wanted.
Jon Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Chelsea did what was necessary to win. Yes, they defended well, but if they had gone to the Nou Camp and the Allianz Arena and played open and expressive attacking football, they would have been torn to bits. Maybe Arsenal should have set themselves up a bit better defensively when Bayern visited the other night... The knockout stages of the Champions League are exactly that. You take it game by game, doing whatever you have to in order to win it. Let's not forget that Chelsea were also doing this with an interim manager, since they sacked AVB earlier in the season. He wouldn't have had much time to get the team playing good football or the way that he wanted. No one said they had to play attacking open football but a team with as much talent as Chelsea shouldn't be parking the bus in every game. They also got more breaks during that run than I've ever seen. Put it this way, it's the only time i've heard people talk about a team winning the Champions League that didn't deserve too.
Fierce_LiNk Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 No one said they had to play attacking open football but a team with as much talent as Chelsea shouldn't be parking the bus in every game. They also got more breaks during that run than I've ever seen. Put it this way, it's the only time i've heard people talk about a team winning the Champions League that didn't deserve too. They may have got a few breaks, but they've also had more than their share of things going against them in recent years, too. What about that farce of a match against Barcelona a few years back, which prompted Didier Drogba's "It's a disgrace" line? Or the Luis Garcia incident. In the record books, it will say that Chelsea won the Champions League, and they did it by over-turning a difficult situation against Napoli, beating Barcelona over 2 legs (a victory at Stamford Bridge and a good draw in the Nou Camp with 10 men) and they won the final in Bayern Munich's back yard. And they did this with an interim manager, not a manager like Arsene Wenger who has had time and resources to build his team to his specifications. Ultimately, would any fan give up the Champions League Trophy in favour of playing a bit more attacking football? No, they wouldn't. Yes, playing good football is important, but winning games is also important and the whole point in football. They didn't get it all their way because they didn't finish well in the league. The league is a far better representation of a team. The Champions League is a fantastic competition, but it's also a cup/knockout competition. You play well for 2 games, you go through to the next round.
bob Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 For a second there, I thought I'd opened this thread in May 2012.
Charlie Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 No one said they had to play attacking open football but a team with as much talent as Chelsea shouldn't be parking the bus in every game. They also got more breaks during that run than I've ever seen. Put it this way, it's the only time i've heard people talk about a team winning the Champions League that didn't deserve too. Although I think there were far better teams in the competition who perhaps deserved to win it more. Chelsea played a tactical game and came out champions because of it. It's a risky tactic because one early goal can ruin it for you in any match. Look at Rangers' UEFA Cup run in 07/08. Played defensive and managed to get an away goal each time. However they got to the final and tried to play the same tactics but got torn apart. One bad match will ruin it, Chelsea got lucky.
Mr-Paul Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Not taking away how much of an achievement United's treble was, but for me, the main thing it shows me is not how great that team were, but how marginal football can be, and once a top team gets into a winning mentality, they'll just keep winning. In the league, United won by a single point over Arsenal. In the FA Cup, it took extra time in a semi-final replay, and that famous goal from Giggs, to reach the final over Arsenal. And the Champions League final was won by two injury time goals. United could have ended up with no trophies, but as it is, they won all three.
Fierce_LiNk Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Not taking away how much of an achievement United's treble was, but for me, the main thing it shows me is not how great that team were, but how marginal football can be, and once a top team gets into a winning mentality, they'll just keep winning. In the league, United won by a single point over Arsenal. In the FA Cup, it took extra time in a semi-final replay, and that famous goal from Giggs, to reach the final over Arsenal. And the Champions League final was won by two injury time goals. United could have ended up with no trophies, but as it is, they won all three. Funny enough, that desire to win hasn't changed over the years. United still get late goals these days, because they keep going until the final whistle. That's the main thing I've loved about watching them, there's a never say die attitude. One of my favourite ever goals is that 87th minute winner that Cantona scored in the FA Cup Final against Liverpool. It's a shame that Arsenal seem to have lost that. My favourite matches when growing up were against Arsenal and Liverpool, because the desire and attitude for both teams to win was always there. Even if we lost the game, it was still fantastic to watch two teams really tearing each other apart. That Martin Keown moment against our Ruud, I hated him for it, but also it showed passion and determination. This Arsenal team don't have the same fire as the old one, they're almost like robots on a field, but instead of being mechanical and flawless, they are broken machines. Maybe that's why everyone has enjoyed watching Jack Wilshere, because he's probably one of the only ones that goes out there and plays with his heart.
Ellmeister Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Have you just watched the Wizard of Oz or something? :p I'm not denying we were lucky but you said you've had better seasons than Chelsea...apart from the Invincible season which I admit is a fantastic achievement I don't think you can say was better than our last season.
Jon Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 They may have got a few breaks, but they've also had more than their share of things going against them in recent years, too. What about that farce of a match against Barcelona a few years back, which prompted Didier Drogba's "It's a disgrace" line? Or the Luis Garcia incident. In the record books, it will say that Chelsea won the Champions League, and they did it by over-turning a difficult situation against Napoli, beating Barcelona over 2 legs (a victory at Stamford Bridge and a good draw in the Nou Camp with 10 men) and they won the final in Bayern Munich's back yard. And they did this with an interim manager, not a manager like Arsene Wenger who has had time and resources to build his team to his specifications. Ultimately, would any fan give up the Champions League Trophy in favour of playing a bit more attacking football? No, they wouldn't. Yes, playing good football is important, but winning games is also important and the whole point in football. They didn't get it all their way because they didn't finish well in the league. The league is a far better representation of a team. The Champions League is a fantastic competition, but it's also a cup/knockout competition. You play well for 2 games, you go through to the next round. I don't see how being an interim manager makes much of a difference, Di Matteo had been at the club previously, he knew all the players and how the club operates when he took over. If anything he had an advantage. It's not like the Chelsea squad was lacking either, most fans would kill to be able to choose from players they had. You don't need to explain how football works to me, as a fan of the SPL i'm well accustomed to seeing how the small teams should act in Europe. I don't have a problem with how they lined up. I've just never before seen a team outplayed in so many games manage to triumph in a competition and as much as you can call that a tactical masterclass by the manager, I don't. Have you just watched the Wizard of Oz or something? :p I'm not denying we were lucky but you said you've had better seasons than Chelsea...apart from the Invincible season which I admit is a fantastic achievement I don't think you can say was better than our last season. If you're looking at it black and white, i'd agree. If you look at it in the context of how both teams played during those respective seasons, i'd be staggered if anyone chose Chelsea. The fact that there was a managerial change during that season would surely back that up. You somehow managed to win the Champions League but the rest of that season was rather poor.
bob Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) So far, looking like a good night for British teams (Newcastle and Tottenham both through), lets see what Liverpool and Chelsea can do! Edit: Oh Chelsea..... Edit2: Oh Liverpool............. Edited February 21, 2013 by 130131301364
Fierce_LiNk Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 I don't see how being an interim manager makes much of a difference, Di Matteo had been at the club previously, he knew all the players and how the club operates when he took over. If anything he had an advantage. It's not like the Chelsea squad was lacking either, most fans would kill to be able to choose from players they had. It makes a big difference when you suddenly change your manager halfway through the season and then start playing a different way. It ruins your flow (not that there was much with Chelsea). Also, being an interim manager (or any kind of manager) at that club is not exactly easy work. The politics that go on there are crazy. Anyway, I can see we're not going to agree on certain things. Watched the Spurs game: Spurs didn't play well, but they got the right result. I wasn't a fan of their play today, the midfield really struggled to pick passes and Ade didn't do enough for me. They're missing a top quality striker big time, and perhaps they're also missing Modric. Watching the Liverpool game: Today shows why Suarez needs help up top. There's no spare man to help him out like Sturridge has in recent weeks. Look how Joe Allen's goal came about, because he was the spare man and helped make a difference in the box. Liverpool need to do more of that in the second. If Liverpool had somebody further forward to help about Suarez, they'll get their two goals and this will finish up in a rout.
Ellmeister Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 What a goal by Suarez. Shelvey on... game lost :p
Fierce_LiNk Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Excellent game. Zenit are giving the textbook definition of how not to play European away games.
Jon Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Has anyone checked on Madpool? he might have died from multiple Suarez induced orgasms by now
dan-likes-trees Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 It makes a big difference when you suddenly change your manager halfway through the season and then start playing a different way. It ruins your flow (not that there was much with Chelsea). Also, being an interim manager (or any kind of manager) at that club is not exactly easy work. The politics that go on there are crazy. Anyway, I can see we're not going to agree on certain things. Watched the Spurs game: Spurs didn't play well, but they got the right result. I wasn't a fan of their play today, the midfield really struggled to pick passes and Ade didn't do enough for me. They're missing a top quality striker big time, and perhaps they're also missing Modric. Watching the Liverpool game: Today shows why Suarez needs help up top. There's no spare man to help him out like Sturridge has in recent weeks. Look how Joe Allen's goal came about, because he was the spare man and helped make a difference in the box. Liverpool need to do more of that in the second. If Liverpool had somebody further forward to help about Suarez, they'll get their two goals and this will finish up in a rout. Summarises our 2013 so far. You're right about the Modric thing. Although with Lyon (and some of our other games this year) it's at least partially because of how much they sat back. Hard to pick forward passes when there's a good 9 men behind the ball the majority of the time. Despite my beautiful moose image posted above, I actually thought Dembele had another poor game, goal aside. Not pushing past men like he was at the start of the season. Then Dempsey / Scottie and even Holtby aren't offering much (oof) penetration. Think Arsenal are gonna get that top four for sure. League being the only thing to focus on, I reckon they've got enough going forward to do it. Bit bizarre that everyone's sort of loving the europa league this year. It's great! Loving the Liverpool match.
Ellmeister Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Apparently it really hasn't been Torres' night tonight, as opposed to most other game when he's been pants for us. Suarez scores a great goal tonight and then ruins it by stamping on someone unnecessarily. WHY.
Jon Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Suarez at it again. "He can avoid that, he can avoid thaaaaaaat".
Fierce_LiNk Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Summarises our 2013 so far. You're right about the Modric thing. Although with Lyon (and some of our other games this year) it's at least partially because of how much they sat back. Hard to pick forward passes when there's a good 9 men behind the ball the majority of the time. Despite my beautiful moose image posted above, I actually thought Dembele had another poor game, goal aside. Not pushing past men like he was at the start of the season. Then Dempsey / Scottie and even Holtby aren't offering much (oof) penetration. Think Arsenal are gonna get that top four for sure. League being the only thing to focus on, I reckon they've got enough going forward to do it. Bit bizarre that everyone's sort of loving the europa league this year. It's great! Loving the Liverpool match. Yeah, Dembele wasn't great. Unfortunately, you'll get lots of teams trying to put all of their players behind the ball, especially when you've got players like Bale and Lennon. If they try and attack, those two will hit on the counter. That's why players like Modric are valued highly, because they can find that crucial pass. Good game that was. Liverpool were unlucky. That Carragher fuck-up cost them and made it just a bit too unmanageable tonight.
Ellmeister Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Really enjoyed that, exciting match to watch and then to see Liverpool go out at the end was beautiful. Hopefully Chelsea don't lose now and ruin it :p EDIT: GET INNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN. YES HAZARD.
bob Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Well three out of four ain't bad. As Meatloaf used to say.
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