Daft Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 I'm not sure if this deserve its own thread or not, it might, but this is an interesting and pretty relevant article that came out today in The Observer. The rape of men
Diageo Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 If you're going to leave a thread forever whenever someone says something you don't like, Yvonne, you're not going to have many threads to go to.
chairdriver Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 Just to throw this in here. We're often told how absolute freedom and choice is the only way to live, but perhaps it should be acknowledged that stereotypes can bring stability and security. Personally I find too much choice distracting, gender stereotyping in the context of jobs can be a useful filter to allow children to focus in on what they can aspire to be. Taking myself away from the situation, a few questions 1)What's so bad about have gender specific jobs? such as, what if ONLY women could become lunchladies, and men where excluded from that job? Would it devalue the person getting the job? Would it devalue the persons not getting the job? Would it devalue women? Would it devalue men? A lot of stereotypes are useful in providing a social structure, defining norms that allow a society to function smoothly. If you work to hard to break those stereotypes without building in replacement metastructures to take their place, you end up with a society that is either hypocritical or disfunctional. My personal view would be that western society is becoming increasingly both. Why not have a caste system, so people know what exactly what jobs they can and can't do? [Frankly, the most ridiculous post I've ever read in my life.]
Diageo Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 This is the most flawed thing I've ever read. [Frankly, the most ridiculous post I've ever read in my life.] You sure like throwing around that something is the most X you've ever read.
Beast Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 I think that men and women both have pros and cons and that it's more or less equal in a manner of speaking. I'm not trying to sound like an absolute dick or anything but there's a lot of mainstream popular songs that tend to be feminist and not bat an eyelid such as "Run the World" but would the same thing happen if roles were reversed. Would men be branded as sexist if a man was to release a record as such today? I totally get that times were different back then and that now, it's to do with encouragement and that's good but sometimes, it can be shoved in your face a bit too much. An example is Eastenders; how many times have you seen a woman beat a man at something or make a man look stupid or devalue or insult the male gender in a week? There's at least two or three times a week. Yes, I know I'm using a shit show but it's an example and I'm sure there's more shows like this out there, it's the only one that I can think of as a worst offender right now. Yes, there are shows out there where roles are reversed and I'd say the same thing but then there'd be complaints all over the place half of the time and yet women never seem to complain about Eastenders and such because it's in their favour. Equality? Yeah, right! Another thing I hate is when some women say "Men are like this, that and the other. Men are simple. Men are stupid" and then when something bad is said, they call them misogynists and what not. It's a bit like the pot calling the kettle black sometimes. The one thing I really dislike is when you have a woman say "Men are all the same"....errr....yeah....pretty sure every single one of us is literally as evil as Hitler, I'm pretty sure we're all as smart as Einstein and I'm positive we're all living like pimps! Fact is, some men are honest, some men are faithful and some men do care. I've not had good experiences with some girlfriends but I don't say "Girls are all the same" because I know it'd be a stupid thing to say and that everybody is different. There's good and bad in every gender, it's who you are as a person that counts. Frankly, I think sexism can work both ways. It's okay to be proud of your gender but to say you're better than another gender or to put down another gender is ridiculous and insulting. Men are better in some things than women as women are better in some things than men. I'd like equality in the world, for different races and genders and those with different sexual preferences to get along but the fact is, it won't happen because there's always going to be one person who won't accept it. Sorry to make a long post, had a conversation with a girl mate who said "Men are the same" to me and I just found it a bit unfair, a bit insulting and a little dumb, lol.
chairdriver Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 I'm not sure if this deserve its own thread or not, it might, but this is an interesting and pretty relevant article that came out today in The Observer. The rape of men This is really interesting. It's like going to prison. The punishment isn't the confinement, it's the fact you're going to be raped multiple times. And no one does anything about it, because it's inconceivable that men could participate in any form of alternate sexuality. You sure like throwing around that something is the most X you've ever read. Superlativeness doesn't necessarily imply uniqueness, or least not in the way I use language.
The fish Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 Just to throw this in here. We're often told how absolute freedom and choice is the only way to live, but perhaps it should be acknowledged that stereotypes can bring stability and security. Personally I find too much choice distracting, gender stereotyping in the context of jobs can be a useful filter to allow children to focus in on what they can aspire to be. Taking myself away from the situation, a few questions 1)What's so bad about have gender specific jobs? such as, what if ONLY women could become lunchladies, and men where excluded from that job? Would it devalue the person getting the job? Would it devalue the persons not getting the job? Would it devalue women? Would it devalue men? A lot of stereotypes are useful in providing a social structure, defining norms that allow a society to function smoothly. If you work to hard to break those stereotypes without building in replacement metastructures to take their place, you end up with a society that is either hypocritical or disfunctional. My personal view would be that western society is becoming increasingly both. Jesus fucking christ, do you seriously want a caste system, or are you just a massive troll? This is the perfect demonstration of the male privilege - it's an idea I hate, but, by god, you're privileged. What would you say if you were told you couldn't do the job you wanted based exclusively on your gender or sex? That will never happen to you, though, as you're a man. You are, quite literally, the stupidest, small-minded, ill-informed bigoted arsehole I've ever had the misfortune to come across. Another thing I hate is when some women say "Men are like this, that and the other. Men are simple. Men are stupid" and then when something bad is said, they call them misogynists and what not. It's a bit like the pot calling the kettle black sometimes. The one thing I really dislike is when you have a woman say "Men are all the same"....errr....yeah....pretty sure every single one of us is literally as evil as Hitler, I'm pretty sure we're all as smart as Einstein and I'm positive we're all living like pimps! Fact is, some men are honest, some men are faithful and some men do care. I've not had good experiences with some girlfriends but I don't say "Girls are all the same" because I know it'd be a stupid thing to say and that everybody is different. There's good and bad in every gender, it's who you are as a person that counts. I've actually never encountered a person stupid enough to claim men are all the same, but, hey, apparently someone once said it so it must be true... You sure like throwing around that something is the most X you've ever read. To be fair, most of the posts in this thread by the "feminists are evil" cabal are both ridiculous and flawed.
Beast Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 I'm not sure if this deserve its own thread or not, it might, but this is an interesting and pretty relevant article that came out today in The Observer. The rape of men That was a very interesting read and reading the story of Jean Paul was just tragic and upsetting. It goes to show that although rape victims we hear about are mostly women, it happens to men just as much. Also, to The Fish, when I was job-hunting and was looking in newspapers, there were quite a few ads looking for 'female receptionists' and such so yes, it can happen to men as well. I can understand with carers because I'm sure there'd be disabled or elderly women who would like a carer of the same sex but I see no reason why a man can't be a receptionist or whatever. Not trying to start on saying what you said is wrong but I am saying that men can also have restrictions as well. I've actually never encountered a person stupid enough to claim men are all the same, but, hey, apparently someone once said it so it must be true... It's quite true that some women say that but they mostly say it when one of their girlfriends has been dumped by a man or they ended their relationship with a guy to make them feel better. It's honestly the most idiotic thing I've ever heard and I hate it when they do that. What's wrong with "Don't worry, there's someone out there for everyone" or "There's plenty more fish in the sea"?
chairdriver Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 It's quite true that some women say that but they mostly say it when one of their girlfriends has been dumped by a man or they ended their relationship with a guy to make them feel better. It's honestly the most idiotic thing I've ever heard and I hate it when they do that. What's wrong with "Don't worry, there's someone out there for everyone" or "There's plenty more fish in the sea"? That's a totally different thing though. It's a mechanism to deal with a break-up. As a friend you have to create this big web of why the ex is the worst person in the world, when it's quite clear to everyone involved they're a fine person.
MoogleViper Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 I've actually never encountered a person stupid enough to claim men are all the same, but, hey, apparently someone once said it so it must be true... You don't know many women do you?
Beast Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 That's a totally different thing though. It's a mechanism to deal with a break-up. As a friend you have to create this big web of why the ex is the worst person in the world, when it's quite clear to everyone involved they're a fine person. But why involve the entire gender? Why am I the same as a lying cheater when I'm a nice person? It's literally like saying to my mate that all women are humungous sluts because your girlfriend decided to cheat on you. I'm not going to say that because it's not true. Blame the ex, not an entire gender, it's stupid! How does saying "Your man lies and cheats all of the time, men are all the same!" make it better though? Wouldn't "Your man lies and cheats all of the time but hey, don't worry, I'm sure there'll be another man who'll make you happy and make you feel like you're worth a million pounds" a lot better? Maybe it's just me not getting this concept but I just don't see the point...
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 Moogle I'm sure you're better than that gross oversimplification and series of logical leaps. Intersectionality is inevitable. There's proof in this very thread - we started on feminism, went to black and civil rights issues, and now are back at sexism. It's a network of oppression, and rarely do you find a feminist who is not also an advocate for civil rights, LGBTQI* positive, fat positive, pro disability rights etc. This is where it gets down to the personal level, and generalisation is impossible. I would pick feminist as the term most accurately describing myself but that's purely because it was my entry point into the world of anti-oppression ideology. I mean, look at your statement. Without meaning to, you've essentially erased the existence of black women by presenting the false dilemma of fighting either for women's rights or for black rights, as if the intersection of the two with their own unique issues did not exist. That's not to say that by declaring yourself feminist or as part of any number of anti oppression groups you are immune from mistakes or wrong headedness - the first wave feminists fighting for suffrage were still very racist and classist, and tackling homophobia wasn't exactly top of the list in the 60s. As soon as you reduce the world to mere dichotomies you sell yourself short and buy into the kind of tribal us vs them, zero sum game mentality that I see festering in this thread. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality check out the section titled "Interlocking matrix of oppression", and bell hooks if you have time. Eddie - again, the mistake being made is that people are thinking about the taxonomy (i guess that's the right word?) as if it is a mutually exclusive thing. I am pro LGBTQI*, a feminist, pro civil rights, pro disability rights, fat positive and many other things. If you tell me you like pasta I don't respond by saying "oh, well why don't you like pork?" I'm not sure you get the point. It's not about feminists supposedly fighting only for female equality, it's that the name doesn't make much sense. Most feminists I've met keep highlighting how feminism is about gender equality, so why still call it feminism? It actually seems like a strange concept, fighting for the "equality for women", because you can't have gender equality without there also being equality for men (and other genders, if we're moving out into that territory). Basically I'm all for feminism, but I just don't think the name is logical, and unfortunately it also carries negative connotations. Just to throw this in here. We're often told how absolute freedom and choice is the only way to live, but perhaps it should be acknowledged that stereotypes can bring stability and security. Personally I find too much choice distracting, gender stereotyping in the context of jobs can be a useful filter to allow children to focus in on what they can aspire to be. Taking myself away from the situation, a few questions 1)What's so bad about have gender specific jobs? such as, what if ONLY women could become lunchladies, and men where excluded from that job? Would it devalue the person getting the job? Would it devalue the persons not getting the job? Would it devalue women? Would it devalue men? A lot of stereotypes are useful in providing a social structure, defining norms that allow a society to function smoothly. If you work to hard to break those stereotypes without building in replacement metastructures to take their place, you end up with a society that is either hypocritical or disfunctional. My personal view would be that western society is becoming increasingly both. I see we disagree utterly and completely on just about everything in life. I'm not sure if this deserve its own thread or not, it might, but this is an interesting and pretty relevant article that came out today in The Observer. The rape of men That's absolutely horrible ... But why involve the entire gender? Why am I the same as a lying cheater when I'm a nice person? It's literally like saying to my mate that all women are humungous sluts because your girlfriend decided to cheat on you. I'm not going to say that because it's not true. Blame the ex, not an entire gender, it's stupid! How does saying "Your man lies and cheats all of the time, men are all the same!" make it better though? Wouldn't "Your man lies and cheats all of the time but hey, don't worry, I'm sure there'll be another man who'll make you happy and make you feel like you're worth a million pounds" a lot better? Maybe it's just me not getting this concept but I just don't see the point... You know, I've wondered the same thing. It seems like a strange way of cheering someone up. "He was horrible, but don't worry, they're all like that." "Wha-?" Prescribe precisely how someone must live their life and then see how much social stability you get in the end. Would you be happy being told you couldn't pursue your interests because you weren't an X or a Y? I knew gamers were bad but I didn't realise they were THIS bad. I declare my exit from this thread. Jesus fucking christ, bring a flood. Whoa, way to be judgmental and lump us all together.
heroicjanitor Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 The not offending people didn't last long "All gamers are dreadful, please drown the world". Big overreaction. The feminism/equality thing reminds me of Carl on The Simpsons. Lenny: We made it. And it's all thanks to teamwork. Carl: Yeah, *my* teamwork. Except with equality instead of teamwork. Not exactly the same but you know. I know the feminists gain isn't everyone else's loss so there is no need to say it again, I just think splitting the movements up causes slower progress and, quite obviously, conflict from people feeling left out. It's difficult to work for other people's rights when you feel yours are just as lacking. What is the male equivalent of feminism anyway?
Daft Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 What is the male equivalent of feminism anyway? Male chauvinist pigism.
EddieColeslaw Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 (edited) in b4 firebombing your men What is the male equivalent of feminism anyway? Masculism. Edited July 17, 2011 by EddieColeslaw Automerged Doublepost
Hamishmash Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 I am very aware of women's rights in the film industry. Recently I saw people calling Megan Fox a bitch and a cow for calling Michael Bay a Nazi and that it was right she get fired by Steven Spielberg. I don't think that is right. It's true, I'm not her biggest fan but Shia La Beouf has totally bad-mouthed Indy 4 and Steven Spielberg and yet he keeps his job. Megan Fox's audition for the original transformers was to being filmed sexily washing Bay's car. She was told to just look pretty and that's it. And take people like Charlie Sheen or Christian Bale. They can have freak outs or threaten their wives with knives and they keep their jobs and continue to work happily. Can you imagine if Kate Winslot was recorded having a massive, curse-filled rant at a technician on a set. Or if Natalie Portman attacked her husband? Would she still be getting Oscars? Take Ralph Fiennes. He cheated on his wife Alex Kingston, causing her to attempt suicide and he left for another woman. He then cheated on her by having sex with someone in a aeroplane toilet. These acts would potentially put a permanent scar on an actresses' career but he gets to still be in the biggest films in the world. I know this is all theoretical, but I hate seeing people call Megan Fox a bitch for being honest about Michael Bay's directorial techniques and yet find, for example, Charlie Sheen hilarious for being insane. I believe it is true that women have to work a lot, lot harder when it comes to the movie industry as they are seen as very disposable. What did Michael Bay do when Megan Fox insulted him? He got a younger, blonder model.
Goafer Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 (edited) Whilst I do agree completely, comparing Megan Fox to Charlie Sheen isn't a good comparison IMO. Megan Fox had one angry rant, Charlie Sheen is batshit insane. Although who do you think gets the most respect out of the two? Even people who find Charlie Sheen funny don't respect him. He's a clown. Comparing Megan Fox to Christian Bale would work better IMO. I have more (although not much more) respect for Megan Fox to be honest, although admittedly I don't know the extent of her rant. Hollywood in general is pretty shit though. Most people are hired for their looks instead of acting ability (Transformers had Megan Fox and Shia La Beouf after all), it's just they're more blatant about the women. As for Shia La Beouf keeping his job and Megan Fox not, do we know the full story? Maybe he apologised, but she wouldn't? I'd like to think it's more than just "woman are replaceable", but even I think I might be being naive/overly optimistic. In short: fuck Hollywood. It's nothing more than dumb, mindless entertainment. Any woman with brains wouldn't want to be a part of it anyway. Edited July 17, 2011 by Goafer
Daft Posted July 17, 2011 Posted July 17, 2011 Megan Fox hates Michael Bay and thus I love her. I will defend her honour until death or I'm bored.
chairdriver Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 Plus, she's obviously going to play Selene, the Black Queen, in my X-Men: Hellfire Club movie.
Happenstance Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 Megan Fox called her Jewish director Hitler, to be honest im not suprised she was fired. Apparently it was Spielberg and not Bay that decided she should go after that. Also according to crew members she was a pretty hard person to work with.
Daft Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 Also according to crew members she was a pretty hard person to work with. I'm sure the people she worked with were hard, too. Apologies.
Happenstance Posted July 18, 2011 Posted July 18, 2011 Ive never particularly found her attractive myself. Always seems more trampy than anything.
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