Aimless Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 I don't think anyone's taken exception to hackers in general. We're annoyed at this particular situation because the actions of those involved are immature and made on the basis of a lack of accountability. Similarly I feel I've been pretty clear that piracy isn't as big an issue as some would paint it as, but that doesn't negate it. One broken leg is preferable to two but it doesn't make the prospect of the former any more desirable.
Tissue Town Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Because the inevitable is piracy. Why is that so hard to see? If I'd spent years making a game I wouldn't want some cock slap stealing it. Anyway, I'm bored of this. What's done is done. Doesn't bother me. I get my payslip regardless. Like I said, Piracy has little impact. If someone decides to pirate a game I made, I don't see it as a customer lost.
Daft Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 It might of bothered me but I hate SquEx games. Pirate away people.
flameboy Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 First of all. Once someone purchases a product, it is their's to do whatever they wish to do with it. You know why hacking a particular voids the warranty.. that's the price and risk they take when they do so. It's even stevens as far as I'm concerned. Also, I know how so many of you like to attribute hacking to straight up piracy, but put it simply. People will find a way to pirate games no matter what. Piracy will always exist, and every corporation knows this. All they can do is make it more difficult. You can demonise hackers and unlockers all you want, but let's take the 3ds for instance. That's region locked. I can only assume you won't hack it once that becomes possible to region unlock it, because doing so will only make you a hypocrite, but regardless. By limiting customers to that extent, it's only encouraging hacking. And thus it, by your admission, encourages piracy. Also, Piracy isn't that big of a problem as your big companies like to make you believe. It's still only a niche in countries such as this, America etc. Piracy will always be rampant in nations such as China, Eastern European countries, south america etc. But they were never gonna buy most of the games in the first place. Too pricey. Just a bit of perspective for you. NO it isn't! You buy the console and agree to licensing terms and conditions, there is this kinda grey area where you don't even technically own games on disks they are giving you the license to play that game. Also your talking crap about piracy being a niche in certain countries I know sooooo many people RL and internet who pirate and it fucking sucks, the number of arguements I've got into about this shit... I think if these guys genuinely wanted to do this for the right reasons they wouldn't have released the info they did. They would have used these methods to do some fantastic stuff that couldn't be done usually and I dunno publish a video showing it off and send it off to Sony and ask them to consider adding these features doing things to enable certain stuff... I mean they've said they have done it with the best of intentions but what have they shown off thats justified them releasing it? Whereas we have tangible evidence of hackers shenanigans....
MadDog Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 I don't care about people pirating games, it's always going to happen. It's the bit that allows people to cheat online, and possibly steal card details that bothers me. That's the real problem here, it makes it more enjoyable for everyone if this wasn't happening.
Goafer Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 NO it isn't! You buy the console and agree to licensing terms and conditions, there is this kinda grey area where you don't even technically own games on disks they are giving you the license to play that game. As far as I'm concerned, if I've paid over £200 for something that resides in my house, I'm entitled to to whatever I want with it. I don't care what text has popped up (which is always worded in a way that not everyone will understand. Fair?). That PS3 is mine and mine only. If I want to take it to bits and play around with it (I don't btw), I will. If I want to paint it a rich mahogany colour and adorn it with fine jewels, I will. It's mine. Piracy is a different story, as it's sort of theft. But that licence stuff is horse shit. Also, I bought my PS3 second hand, so I didn't agree to shit when I fired it up for the first time. Obviously, I have "agreed" to ones that come with the updates, but what if someone bought a second hand PS3 and never applied an update/modded it straight away? They haven't been shown the terms and conditions, so couldn't have clicked agree.
Tissue Town Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 NO it isn't! You buy the console and agree to licensing terms and conditions, there is this kinda grey area where you don't even technically own games on disks they are giving you the license to play that game. Also your talking crap about piracy being a niche in certain countries I know sooooo many people RL and internet who pirate and it fucking sucks, the number of arguements I've got into about this shit... I think if these guys genuinely wanted to do this for the right reasons they wouldn't have released the info they did. They would have used these methods to do some fantastic stuff that couldn't be done usually and I dunno publish a video showing it off and send it off to Sony and ask them to consider adding these features doing things to enable certain stuff... I mean they've said they have done it with the best of intentions but what have they shown off thats justified them releasing it? Whereas we have tangible evidence of hackers shenanigans.... So your evidence for rampant piracy are people you know IRL?
flameboy Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 As far as I'm concerned, if I've paid over £200 for something that resides in my house, I'm entitled to to whatever I want with it. I don't care what text has popped up (which is always worded in a way that not everyone will understand. Fair?). That PS3 is mine and mine only. If I want to take it to bits and play around with it (I don't btw), I will. If I want to paint it a rich mahogany colour and adorn it with fine jewels, I will. It's mine. Piracy is a different story, as it's sort of theft. But that licence stuff is horse shit. Also, I bought my PS3 second hand, so I didn't agree to shit when I fired it up for the first time. Obviously, I have "agreed" to ones that come with the updates, but what if someone bought a second hand PS3 and never applied an update/modded it straight away? They haven't been shown the terms and conditions, so couldn't have clicked agree. Yours totally right in sooooo many ways... So your evidence for rampant piracy are people you know IRL? Well I've lived in 4 different cities/towns in this country and always known somebody who pirates games. Everyone and I mean everyone at school pirated, used to be a lad who made a killing selling PS1 games and even earlier than that remember a kid selling amiga games. At uni I was one of a few in my block who didn't pirate, ton of people with PS2's and xbox's with stacks of games. I've known enough people who do it down the years to think it cannot be cast off as a niche of people. For example I have a mate who sure doesn't have the know how to do it but he doesn't need to his 360 is chipped and the person who did it provides him with the games. His doesn't go online with it and doesn't need to and he loves it and I hate it lol. Also look around the net, I'm sure there are a ton of websites offering pirated games and its not just the people who go on these sites but also the people who get the games off them.
Tissue Town Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Ok so anecdotal evidence vs proven growth of the industry every year. Gotcha.
Rummy Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Seems to me a large number of people in this thread and throwing around half baked and assuming opinions of slight extremes. The unfortunate thing is everything can be reasoned one way or another, and all will hold true until fully denounced. I'll address the thread further tomorrow, maybe.
Goafer Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Ok so anecdotal evidence vs proven growth of the industry every year. Gotcha. Just because the industry is growing, doesn't mean that piracy isn't common. Pretty much every console owning person I know has at least dabbled in piracy, with only the "casuals" being the exception (and even they have pirated DVDs etc)
flameboy Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 Ok so anecdotal evidence vs proven growth of the industry every year. Gotcha. hmmmm proven growth you say.... Video games sales fall for the second year in a row: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hYU90vXmuenZkJsfwn4TQCb1HvNQ?docId=17b96d9e65d8452bae80351e7b18ae54 http://uk.gamespot.com/wii/action/callofduty7workingtitle/news.html?sid=6286347
Rummy Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 First few paragraphs of your first link there; SEATTLE (AP) — U.S. retail sales of new video games dropped in 2010, but revenue from mobile game "apps" and other new formats helped keep the total amount spent on video game content unchanged from a year ago, according to market researchers NPD Group Inc. NPD said Thursday that sales of video games made for consoles, portable gaming devices and personal computers dropped 5 percent to $10.1 billion. However, NPD said increased sales of used games, digital downloads, games for smart phones and games played over social networks kept video game content sales at $15.4 billion to $15.6 billion for 2010 — about flat with 2009. So are you trying to tell us sales have fallen, or haven't? Strange that mobile/smartphone content sells so well, when the iPod, too, has been rampant with jailbreaking. NO it isn't! You buy the console and agree to licensing terms and conditions, there is this kinda grey area where you don't even technically own games on disks they are giving you the license to play that game. Yes, it is. Different licenses and terms are different things, but there's not really a license on the actual physical product/hardware that holds truly valid, as pointed out. Voiding warranties etc is generally the worst one can do. I think if these guys genuinely wanted to do this for the right reasons they wouldn't have released the info they did. They would have used these methods to do some fantastic stuff that couldn't be done usually and I dunno publish a video showing it off and send it off to Sony and ask them to consider adding these features doing things to enable certain stuff... I mean they've said they have done it with the best of intentions but what have they shown off thats justified them releasing it? Whereas we have tangible evidence of hackers shenanigans.... Why wouldn't they release the info they did? As someone or an article already tried to justify it, the hackers hacked it BECAUSE sony took away the feature of LinuxOS. Personally, I think it's all hearsay and speculation why the hackers did it, can't prove any of that until they actually say it themselves. Why publish the keys? Well, someone also addressed that with a good reason; allow the hacking community access to the discovery you have made, see if they do something else/better/different that you didn't think of with it/couldn't do, and then we have progress, surely? Why hack a console then keep it all to yourself that you've done it? Also releasing the keys is proof of the feat. Don't get me wrong, I'm not passing a judgement on right and wrong here, I just want to point out that we don't know the motivations, we're arguing about things that surely won't be proven either way?
Cube Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 Why wouldn't they release the info they did? As someone or an article already tried to justify it, the hackers hacked it BECAUSE sony took away the feature of LinuxOS. Personally, I think it's all hearsay and speculation why the hackers did it, can't prove any of that until they actually say it themselves. Sony removed LinuxOS because these guys released a way to pirate PS3 games through the LinuxOS.
Debug Mode Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 I've pretty much given up on this debate as it's pretty much going no where. No ones right, no ones wrong, so all it seems to right now is trying to convince a change of opinion in the opposition, which isn't happening. But I shall contribute one more thing: Flameboy, seriously? You're arguing that you shouldn't be allowed to do what ever you want with your own property? It's getting to the state in America where you will buy a pre-built computer advertised with having 'Processor (INSERT MANUFACTURER) XXXXX' with the speed and cache hidden away so that only the computer literate customers can find the specification. Why are they doing this? Not because it tricks customers into thinking "OH I'VE HEARD OF A DUAL CORE, THAT'S REALLY GOOD BUY IT", but because they are deliberately limiting the spec of the processor and selling cards that you can input into your computer to make the processor faster. It's a bad example, yes I know, but it's an all around dangerous precedent that companies are allowed to alter the experience of hardware you have bought out of your own money. If you bought it, it's yours. If you want the ease of having more codecs playable on your PS3 than Sony allows if you have the tools to do it(and saving you the effort of rearranging your desktop to be near your TV for connectivity), you should and are allowed. Piracy will always come. The gaming industry thinks it should be exempt by things such as hacking, when it happens to every other platform. Piracy is troublesome as it'll prevent publisher confidence to launch in area's such as here for the RPG's and such I want. But most of the people complaining have likely downloaded movies, music, tv series and shit but scream bloody havoc when it happens to games.
Goafer Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 It's getting to the state in America where you will buy a pre-built computer advertised with having 'Processor (INSERT MANUFACTURER) XXXXX' with the speed and cache hidden away so that only the computer literate customers can find the specification. Why are they doing this? Not because it tricks customers into thinking "OH I'VE HEARD OF A DUAL CORE, THAT'S REALLY GOOD BUY IT", but because they are deliberately limiting the spec of the processor and selling cards that you can input into your computer to make the processor faster. That is fucking disgusting. It's not like the extra power has cost Intel anything extra to make (or hindering the performance makes it cheaper), so they are literally charging for nothing. I would do everything I could to hack that on principal if I owned one.
McPhee Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 It's quite normal. It's cheaper to manufacture one high-spec processor and then hardware/software lock it's capabilities to create lower models in the range than it is to manufacture all models seperately. The only thing new in that story is Intel are now providing a way to unlock these chips to a higher spec processor.
Debug Mode Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 It's quite normal. It's cheaper to manufacture one high-spec processor and then hardware/software lock it's capabilities to create lower models in the range than it is to manufacture all models seperately. The only thing new in that story is Intel are now providing a way to unlock these chips to a higher spec processor. Yeah I've only just realised how commonplace this is reading around similar examples on the tech websites. A mate was telling me an hour ago about the ATI Radeon HD 6950 being flashed into a 6970
Goafer Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 Yeah, but I thought chips were made about the same, but then have to be limited for the sake of stability. So they make them all the same, but due to manufacturing defects or whatever, some can't handle the full speed so are downgraded until they become stable. Once they are stable, they are just labelled as whatever they have been downgraded to and sold as such. I could be wrong, hardware isn't my strong point.
Debug Mode Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 Sony to bring in serial keys with Blu-ray discs? Pretty smart choice. It doesn't work very well with PC games, but considering the platform this will take quite a while to crack (if it ever does). Interesting consequences for rental, borrowing and second hand games though.
heroicjanitor Posted January 20, 2011 Author Posted January 20, 2011 They won't be able to go through with that I suspect. Gamestop and other retailers will reduce the space allocated to ps3, put it out of the way and basically just punish Sony for it.
Goafer Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) Sony to bring in serial keys with Blu-ray discs? Pretty smart choice. It doesn't work very well with PC games, but considering the platform this will take quite a while to crack (if it ever does). Interesting consequences for rental, borrowing and second hand games though. Seems logical to me. Although what about PS3 owners who don't have it connected to the internet? How can it verify how many times a code has been used? And as for second hand games; there will probably be an option to buy more licences on the PSN. Sucks, but meh. That method was already in place before the whole mass pirate panic came about. They won't be able to go through with that I suspect. Gamestop and other retailers will reduce the space allocated to ps3, put it out of the way and basically just punish Sony for it. I doubt they will to be honest. Customers want PS3 games, it would be retail suicide to stop/reduce stocking a third (ish) of the whole home console market. Purely rental places will probably stop stocking PS3 games due to not being able to rent them anymore. Sony might lose money that way. Edited January 20, 2011 by Goafer Automerged Doublepost
flameboy Posted January 20, 2011 Posted January 20, 2011 I've pretty much given up on this debate as it's pretty much going no where. No ones right, no ones wrong, so all it seems to right now is trying to convince a change of opinion in the opposition, which isn't happening. But I shall contribute one more thing: Flameboy, seriously? You're arguing that you shouldn't be allowed to do what ever you want with your own property? It's getting to the state in America where you will buy a pre-built computer advertised with having 'Processor (INSERT MANUFACTURER) XXXXX' with the speed and cache hidden away so that only the computer literate customers can find the specification. Why are they doing this? Not because it tricks customers into thinking "OH I'VE HEARD OF A DUAL CORE, THAT'S REALLY GOOD BUY IT", but because they are deliberately limiting the spec of the processor and selling cards that you can input into your computer to make the processor faster. It's a bad example, yes I know, but it's an all around dangerous precedent that companies are allowed to alter the experience of hardware you have bought out of your own money. If you bought it, it's yours. If you want the ease of having more codecs playable on your PS3 than Sony allows if you have the tools to do it(and saving you the effort of rearranging your desktop to be near your TV for connectivity), you should and are allowed. Piracy will always come. The gaming industry thinks it should be exempt by things such as hacking, when it happens to every other platform. Piracy is troublesome as it'll prevent publisher confidence to launch in area's such as here for the RPG's and such I want. But most of the people complaining have likely downloaded movies, music, tv series and shit but scream bloody havoc when it happens to games. I wasn't arguing that as if its my belief. I was just saying that people assume they have this right to do what they want with the hardware and yes common sense of ownership would say they can. However I think a lot of this sueing of the hackers will decree under what basis you buy and use this console and what the licensing of the hardware and software means to us as consumers...
mcj metroid Posted January 21, 2011 Posted January 21, 2011 I can't believe so many people are brainwashed into thinking hacking is evil etc. I don't claim to be an expert in the subject but it seems to me that you should be able to do whatever you want with your hardware. You shouldn't be restricted. It would be like buying a new car and having the front of the car locked and sealed... It's getting to the stage where everything and I mean everything is made FOR us and we cannot do anything for ourselves. Where do we draw the line? and you know piracy has it's bad moments but let's not forget how it can help us. When companies lose money they start changing things faster. I'd argue that the download chart and itunes were created as a result of illegal music downloads in the late 90's. To combat it and it's proven extremely successful. Now as I said i'm no expert on this subject so feel free to rip my post apart if you know any better.
flameboy Posted January 21, 2011 Posted January 21, 2011 I can't believe so many people are brainwashed into thinking hacking is evil etc. I don't claim to be an expert in the subject but it seems to me that you should be able to do whatever you want with your hardware. You shouldn't be restricted. It would be like buying a new car and having the front of the car locked and sealed... It's getting to the stage where everything and I mean everything is made FOR us and we cannot do anything for ourselves. Where do we draw the line? and you know piracy has it's bad moments but let's not forget how it can help us. When companies lose money they start changing things faster. I'd argue that the download chart and itunes were created as a result of illegal music downloads in the late 90's. To combat it and it's proven extremely successful. Now as I said i'm no expert on this subject so feel free to rip my post apart if you know any better. I'd say this is due to companies increasingly feel they need to find ways to protect their IPs etc... Yeah your right about itunes and yeah people deride it but for so many reasons you can see why itunes works the way it does in order for apple to be able to say they've taken all these measures to get the record labels on board.
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