Twilight Princess

[Goron_3]

Guys you have to remember this game went through development hell. Aonuma was dragged in a few months after E3 to change it's direction, even though he'd clearly had enough of the franchise by that point. It was then delayed, we got a new trailer which made it look like it was a completely different game to the first trailer, it got delayed againa and eventually ended up on the Wii.

 

The first half of the game was good, the 2 hour tutorial aside (one of the worst gaming tutorials there's ever been). Infact, the game peaked at Arbiters ground and THAT cutscene, truly brilliant. Unfortunately after that the fact it was rushed for Wii launch clearly showed, you literally just go from dungeon to dungeon with nothing inbetween, no sense of adventure. That was the best thing about something like LoZ or ALTTP; the sense of scale and adventure you got getting from one area to the next. Even Wind Waker and MM gave you depth to the characters and the world. I've never been a fan of 'just walk to the next dungeon' and that's my biggest gripe with twilight, they couldn't easily gotten rid of Hyrule Field for the last 10 hours or so because you only use it as a means of wasting time from one dungeon to the next.

[ShadowV7]

What flimsy senseless reasoning. Complete exscuse-making. The second half of the game felt lifeless and empty, with very little to do between dungeons, it's very hard to argue against that, but congrats on trying.

 

Well, from one point you can argue that, "Okay, we have one one hand, an incredibly powerful enemy, he over turned Hyrule by himself, truelly a force to be reckoned with, a true danger to the land, we must stop him."

 

Shortly after, "OH NOES!!! This enemy is actually nothing, not only can he take over the land, his freaking master and holder of part of the TriForce is behind it all. Not only do we a man who can overturn land with next to no effort, his master is now present. What the frak are we suppoed to do? We have to stop them from destroying Hyrule. Clearly the only way to stop this, lets escort x to y, find z and open up a shop! The land is saved!"

 

I'm going to go on that this is for momentum purposes. We have 2 bad guys to deal with here, the threat is increasing, we want to stop the overturning of Hyrule, so there's more of a shift in speeding things up a bit to reflect the current situation. More of a 'rush' to save Hyrule. If they added more, I think it would've led to more frustration and diverted the real thread. Yes it could've been handled better. It just makes more sense to me, I dunno what side quests that they could've added that was actually important that warrants Link to stop trying to save everyone.

 

I can quote other parts of your posts and counter them, but I see no point. I'll leave it for now anyway.

 

 

 

What I find so amusing, is that we have someone quite rightly enjoying a game, and yet this is slowly turning into Part 1 vs Part 2 all over again.

[Burny]

One thing's for sure, I do want to see Ganon and Hyrule on Nintendo's next machine, to see how they look in HD with some real graphical grunt behind them.

 

Still daydreaming, are we?

 

It's unlikely that Nintendo will make their next home console noticeably more powerful than the PS3 is now. They'll probably chose the cheapest hardware that lets them output an HD-signal, so they can sell the thing profitably, while Sony and MS will probably try to outdo themselves again in terms of graphical power. So the real "graphical grunt" might just not be available on a Nintendo platform again.

 

Still, with Nintendo's general preference of stylized graphics over pseudo-realistic ones, with PS3 type hardware, they should be able to produce an absolutely stunning looking game. :3

[Retro_Link]

I'm really not liking the character designs in Skywards Sword. I watched the trailer again yesterday, and whilst I love the style they've produced for the 'cutscenes' in that trailer, the in game is way too colourful! The Moblins look like Hamsters, and the Stalfos really generic.

[ShadowV7]

I've know next to nothing of Skyward Sword. Gonna be keeping it that way till I get it and go "WOAH!"

[Retro_Link]

I've know next to nothing of Skyward Sword. Gonna be keeping it that way till I get it and go "WOAH!"

haha, or just "OAH!"

 

But yeah, I'll stay away from trailers for this one, but then I did for Twilight Princess aswell and was still underwhelmed!

[ShadowV7]

Haha yeah. Can go either way!

 

I tried with TP, but at the time I had seen a couple of trailers/screens. Those delays were hard

 

But this time, just nothing for SS!

[Retro_Link]

Haha yeah. Can go either way!

 

I tried with TP, but at the time I had seen a couple of trailers/screens. Those delays were hard

 

But this time, just nothing for SS!

Have you seen the E3 trailer?

[Ronnie]

The Moblins do look strange, hopefully they'll be tweaked in the final release, but I love how colourful SS is looking (although they seemed to have toned it down a bit with the last set of shots)

 

Good post goron, although I didn't realise TP went through so much trouble in its development, I just assumed it took a good 4 years or so to make, the game shouldn't have felt that rushed by the end.

 

If you're going to selectively ignore aspects of the game, you're not winning this argument.

 

I'm only ignoring them because they are staple inclusions in pretty much every 3D Zelda. Every game has these seek quests, it's what Nintendo add ON TOP of those that make a game stand out as having lots to do.

[Grazza]

I'm really not liking the character designs in Skywards Sword. I watched the trailer again yesterday, and whilst I love the style they've produced for the 'cutscenes' in that trailer, the in game is way too colourful! The Moblins look like Hamsters, and the Stalfos really generic.

 

The Moblins do look strange, hopefully they'll be tweaked in the final release, but I love how colourful SS is looking (although they seemed to have toned it down a bit with the last set of shots)

 

According to Zelda Wiki, they are Bokoblins, although I agree they don't look very good:

http://www.zeldawiki.org/Bokoblin

[ShadowV7]

Have you seen the E3 trailer?

 

I think i've seen a bit, the previous Links running to the light and a little of Link, then him jumping off at the end.

[Jamba]

That's a long and detailed post, which I will properly reply to later.

 

Is this still gonna happen or was that your detailed stuff.... anticipation is killing me :p

[Fierce_LiNk]

Sorry for teh delay, Jamba. I have been busy with workings.

 

There are somethings about this game that I really liked and I want to start with this as it does deserve some major praise as well as criticism:

 

1. Midna - Best character Nintendo has made in ages. I thought she was well scripted and I loved her almost sweet'n'sour relationship with Link. Decent bit of comedy and she had depth even if it was inferred rather than pointed out directly.

 

Fuck yeah, Midna was really well written. At first I wasn't sure of her alignment and was waiting for her to screw Link over in some way. The early scenes with her were particularly well created, to add that mysterious nature to her character.

 

Nintendo really outdid themselves with that one. It's on a park with The Joker in The Dark Knight. Midna stole the show, to be honest.

 

2. I liked the new editions to the world. Oockoo and Yeti were class and I would happily see the in future games (oh wait! ST had Yeti... YAY!)

 

At first, I didn't take to Oockoo. I didn't really think it had a place in the game. However, over time, my opinion changed and it was a great addition to the game. Yeti was awesome! I also have to say that Zant was a great enemy, particularly in the earlier scenes of the game. That mask/helmet/face thing is disturbing.

 

3. Visual direction - I thought this was sublime. Character design, use of colour in many places, a feeling of culture and beauty. I do wish that they had used a slightly less washed out palette. I remember that the dark world sections used to look more like underwater Hyrule in WW but the over bloomed look they ended up using gelled very well with Wolf and Midna.

 

YES. I really agree with this, although I don't think many will. It seems that you have to do something completely off the wall like The Wind Waker to get noticed, when really Twilight Princess had a nice bit of subtlety to it. In fact, I still argue that the game as a whole was too subtle for most people. It wasn't an "in your face" type of game. Not that that is a problem.

 

4. Opening village - This was lovely and I genuinely felt connections to the people there. It was vibrant and full of life. I loved the fact that there was a pregnant woman there as it added to that sense of community.

 

I agree that it was a vibrant village. I remember watching a video years back where IGN I think it was, they tried to do the first part of the game where you get the fish and feed the cat. Took them ages. Thankfully it meant I knew what to do, so I could get through that quickly and onto the more juicy stuff. Its a nice village, but there isn't a "pull" that draws you back to it later in the game. Whereas I was quite eager to see Kokiri forest as Adult Link in Ocarina, if that makes sense. It would have been great to have had some more reasons to go back to the village later into the game. Unless there's something I've forgotten.

 

Now here come the gripes and I promise to keep them to my major ones as I can complain or criticise things til the cows come home:

 

1. Understimulated - I really felt that the whole way through the game that I wasn't challenged or had to use my brain. The dungeons extremely poor for this as practically every room I went into, I easily identified every puzzle element in a heart beat not asking me to use my brain for the majority of the game. Everything about the level design screamed it was so obvious especially out in the field where things were "labelled" to use a particular weapons in places. This filtered into the bosses, the only well designed ones of which were hugely spoilt by review and preview videos.

 

I've recently done the Water Temple, so have to disagree with you on that basis (the lakebed temple). Not a really straightforward temple. I have to admit that the dungeons were well designed in my opinion and I found them a joy to go through. The Sky temple perhaps not, a bit forgettable.

 

It wasn't a frustratingly difficult Zelda game, but I found it decent enough challenge wise. At the same time, I can't say that I've found any of the other 3D Zelda games gloriously difficult. It would be awesome if Nintendo could introduce some sort of Hard Mode, just to make things a bit more challenging for the more experienced gamers.

 

2. Weapons - This was something that PH really remedied. Each weapon in this game could do pretty much 1 thing and usually that was a bit tame. Many of them were rehashes of tired old weapons (don't give a shit about the bow anymore!) or could only be used in very specific "labelled" places.

 

I agree and disagree here. Some weapons will always be used in Zelda games, like the bombs, the bow, the boomerang, etc. However, I thought the bomb arrows/water bombs and the gale feature of the boomerang were great additions in this game. Coupled with the spinner and the ball and chain (fucking ruled!), they gave a sense of "wow, this is something we've not seen before."

 

The thing that gets most fans is that these new weapons weren't used outside of the dungeons much. Which I do understand, because they largely weren't. However, they're not traditional Zelda weapons, so I can see why they were not used. Bombs probably get used in every single dungeon after you obtain them, as does the hookshot, bow, etc. What we can only hope for is that these weapons take off and get used in more future Zelda games.

 

3. Pace and Predictability - This was a killer as I knew what was coming for the majority of the game as soon as I identified it:

• Enter area as wolf and collect tears
  
• Enter dungeon and complete as Wolf
  
• Get interrupted by mandatory sidequest grrrrrr....
  
• Enter same dungeon as Link and collect dungeon weapon.
  
• Use dungeon weapon repeatedly until bored of it before having to kill boss with said weapon
  
• Leave for next area only to be interrupted by mandatory side quest before being able to enter.
  

Rinse and repeat until the end of the game. *sigh*

 

Surely this part is only relevant to the first three temples? If so, I do agree that it was a bit too structured. I didn't get massively bored playing it, as it led to some pretty good set pieces (where you collect the tears in Kakariko Village and the house burns down, the mini-boss in the lake before the lakebed temple). But yes, I agree here it was too structured for the first three temples. Although, I think the majority of arguments about the pace is refering to the second half of the game?

 

4. Dilution - Many of the joys of Zelda games (and Metroid games) is revisiting places and finding a completely new dimension to them. OoT, MM, LttP and MC were masterful at this as they all had ways of making you go back through an area in a completely different way, sometimes 3 or 4 times. It really felt like they used the areas in the game to their full capacity. TP heavily failed to do this, which included with a pregnant over world made the whole world feel watered down.

 

I have to agree here somewhat. There was definitely more that could have been done to add extra hidden things in areas of the game. Like the first village, going back to that with a later weapon to find something hidden would have been brilliant. There were instances where that happened though, I remember going back to Kakariko village and finding heart pieces. Although, yes, more needs to be done here.

 

5. Lack of Adventure - I think this is mostly down to how dull Link seemed but there were only a few times where I felt like I was genuinely in danger or excited by the adventure of TP. Sneaking into Hyrule in OoT alone was better than most of the dungeons for this feeling.

 

Hmm, I don't think this was the most exciting "version" of Link that we've seen. That probably goes to MM Link. But, I still always felt like I was on a great adventure. Particularly when you were sumo wrestling the mayor and the gorons, fighting horseback on the field, defending the wagon, etc. I do agree though that there were some areas that probably could have done with "more" danger. Kakariko village and Zora's Domain were fucking wrecks, so I could easily understand that there was an evil prescence there, as with Lake Hylia. However, the castle town and areas surrounding it could have done with a bit more...prescence.

 

It would have been great if the castle town itself had been attacked, and you have to defend it, with people panicking, etc. Think of something on a smaller scale to Helms Deep in The Two Towers. That would have been hot. It would have given Link more personality, it would have given the townsfolk more of a prescence (panicky people) and it would have made for a great highlight for the game.

 

So yeah there you have it. I was much happier with PH and ST as Zelda games despite their flaws. I'm much happier that Nintendo re-focused on the fun side of Zelda rather than the dramatics. I also think that Zelda to be truly great again it needs to be completely rethought in terms of gameplay and design. It's falling into the JRPG trap now...

 

Hmm, Phantom Hourglass is good, but I haven't completely taken to it yet. I'm much more of a home console gamer than a handheld. I do admit though that I'm not overly fond of the Waterworld themes of these games.

 

What flimsy senseless reasoning. Complete exscuse-making. The second half of the game felt lifeless and empty, with very little to do between dungeons, it's very hard to argue against that, but congrats on trying.

 

Don't be so patronising. That is my opinion, so you can either agree or disagree with it.

 

I'm not talking about a triforce hunt, I'm talking about having a constant supply of things to do between dungeons. Getting into the City in the Sky was pretty good, there was certainly enough to do to get up there, but before and after that it was severely lacking, and is one of the main complaints about the game.

 

Having a "constant supply of things to do" before dungeons would have slowed the pace down. If these were optional things, then fine and fair enough, it is good to be able to have that aspect of freedom in videogames. However, having lots of things to do before you even get to the next dungeon isn't necessarily the best of ideas. Like I mentioned, it could have slowed down the momentum of the game. I'm happy with the way it was handled.

 

Ok, even discounting MM (and btw, the main quest was huge and the sidequests simply added a layer on top of that, proving you can have an epic game and have plenty to do in your own time), but what about WW then? Lots to do. TP felt empty, forget bug and poe collecting, can you think of anything else?

 

Was MM's main quest huge? I disagree with that personally. Not short by any means, but definitely not huge. The main quest was much smaller than Ocarina's and I think I actually racked up many more hours doing the main quest for Twilight Princess than I did Majora.

 

What do you mean "forget bug and poe collecting"? Yes, lets completely forget aspects of the game which are totally revelant to the argument. Lets see, obtaining wallets, arrow and bomb bags, heart pieces, bottles, hidden skills, using the magic armour and also the cave of ordeals. Some of these are not overly difficult to do (like the hidden skills) but they all take time and are extra things to do. You can't just dismiss the bug and poe collecting because they are also aspects of exploration that take time and effort to do.

 

Some of these may not be hugely revolutionary, but they were extra things to do that didn't have much bearing on the mainquest. They're there for the fans, those gamers who want more and want to get everything from the game.

 

Oh dear

 

 

 

 

Is this still gonna happen or was that your detailed stuff.... anticipation is killing me :p

 

There you are, man. I have given you my evening!

[Ronnie]

Don't be so patronising. That is my opinion, so you can either agree or disagree with it.

 

Believe me, I know when I'm reading your posts it's me me me. I know it's your opinion, and sorry to sound patronising but I found your reasoning flimsy, to say the least.

 

Having a "constant supply of things to do" before dungeons would have slowed the pace down. If these were optional things, then fine and fair enough, it is good to be able to have that aspect of freedom in videogames. However, having lots of things to do before you even get to the next dungeon isn't necessarily the best of ideas. Like I mentioned, it could have slowed down the momentum of the game. I'm happy with the way it was handled.

 

It went against pretty much every single Zelda, or at least every 3D Zelda, that had getting into each dungeon get progressively harder, and longer as the quest went on. Warping from Snowpeak to just outside the Temple of Time was lame and jarring. The first act, shall we say, felt complete, lots to do, each dungeon getting harder to reach, then the mirror shards part, pacing and interest went out the window.

 

You can't just dismiss the bug and poe collecting because they are also aspects of exploration that take time and effort to do.

 

Once again, you have to do bug/poe/spider etc collecting in every 3D Zelda game. My reason for dismissing it is because it was present in every 3D Zelda game, so can't be used to argue that "there's a lot to do in TP". There should be plenty of additional things to do, beyond the staple Zelda missions that we have with every game. There weren't in TP, the world felt empty, Castle Town in particular, especially compared to Windfall Island (and obviously Clock Town)

[Fierce_LiNk]

Believe me, I know when I'm reading your posts it's me me me. I know it's your opinion, and sorry to sound patronising but I found your reasoning flimsy, to say the least.

 

Wow. If you'd like to back up your post with some actual evidence of me being self indulgent, then go right ahead. I would also like to say that I find some of your posts particularly unfriendly and unwelcoming, to say the least.

 

It went against pretty much every single Zelda, or at least every 3D Zelda, that had getting into each dungeon get progressively harder, and longer as the quest went on. Warping from Snowpeak to just outside the Temple of Time was lame and jarring. The first act, shall we say, felt complete, lots to do, each dungeon getting harder to reach, then the mirror shards part, pacing and interest went out the window.

 

The bits leading up to each dungeon may not have been longer or harder, but as I've already said, they don't necessarily have to be. I find it very strange how on the one hand you condemn Twilight Princess for having "conventional" sidequests, yet at the same time moan that the plot doesn't necessarily follow (in your opinion) the conventions of past games.

You also have to admit that some of the ideas for the locations and settings of the dungeons were a breath of fresh air for the series. I didn't actually realise that the Yeti's Mansion was a dungeon at first, and that also goes for the Arbiter's Grounds. Probably the temple of time, too. They were cleverly disguised and became "extensions" of the world, rather than a seperate temple or something. Stepping into the Yeti's Mansion, you aren't suddenly aware that you're stepping into a temple or a dungeon. Its very alive.

 

 

 

Once again, you have to do bug/poe/spider etc collecting in every 3D Zelda game. My reason for dismissing it is because it was present in every 3D Zelda game, so can't be used to argue that "there's a lot to do in TP". There should be plenty of additional things to do, beyond the staple Zelda missions that we have with every game. There weren't in TP, the world felt empty, Castle Town in particular, especially compared to Windfall Island (and obviously Clock Town)

 

So, because it's present in every game, it becomes less relevant? Does it heck. They may not have been things that were quite up to your standard of things to do, but they were there never the less and were still enjoyable tasks that would eat into hours of your life.

[Jonnas]

Hmm, Phantom Hourglass is good, but I haven't completely taken to it yet. I'm much more of a home console gamer than a handheld. I do admit though that I'm not overly fond of the Waterworld themes of these games.

 

I just need to say, Spirit Tracks does not have a waterworld. It has railroads and trains and enemy tanks!

But no snakes on the train. That was a bit of a missed opportunity.

[Fierce_LiNk]

I just need to say, Spirit Tracks does not have a waterworld. It has railroads and trains and enemy tanks!

But no snakes on the train. That was a bit of a missed opportunity.

 

Oh, I knew that, but I was mainly focusing on Phantom Hourglass in that post. (and previously was talking about Wind Waker)

 

Zelda, on rails. Who would have thought it, eh?

[Grazza]

I just need to say, Spirit Tracks does not have a waterworld. It has railroads and trains and enemy tanks!

But no snakes on the train. That was a bit of a missed opportunity.

 

But it does have...

 

[spoiler=]Moblins on a train!

 

[Jonnas]

Zelda, on rails. Who would have thought it, eh?

 

I'm still positive that Skyward Sword will bring us planes. You have to agree, that could be awesome.

 

But it does have...

 

[spoiler=]Moblins on a train!

 

The only enemies on the train, unfortunately. I thought it was a different name, though.

[Fierce_LiNk]

I'm still positive that Skyward Sword will bring us planes. You have to agree, that could be awesome.

 

 

 

The only enemies on the train, unfortunately. I thought it had a different name, though.

 

Gliders would be awesome. Or, Link could go all Mario Galaxy and transform into a shuttle or something.

 

Planes, hmm. We'll have to wait and see how that turns out. Nintendo will make it work, somehow.

[Ronnie]

on the one hand you condemn Twilight Princess for having "conventional" sidequests

 

I'm not condemning TP for having conventional sidequests, I've condemning the fact that it ONLY has conventional sidequests and very little else. There's a big difference.

 

You also have to admit that some of the ideas for the locations and settings of the dungeons were a breath of fresh air for the series

 

Absolutely, they were and I agree, they blended seamlessly with the landscape. The dungeon art design was excellent, from Arbiter's Grounds onwards anyway.

 

So, because it's present in every game, it becomes less relevant? Does it heck.

 

It's really not that hard to understand. Every Zelda has hunt quests, where you go off and find things. Having TP's hunt quests be poes and bugs shouldn't be heralded as some amazing feature of the game, because it is a staple Zelda gaming mechanic that's been present in every 3D Zelda. Things should be improving with each iteration, you have to look beyond the standard ever-present elements of the game (the bug and poe collecting) and see what NEW elements there are, that stand out.

[Grazza]

The only enemies on the train, unfortunately. I thought it was a different name, though.

 

My memory's hazy, but I thought...

 

[spoiler=]...there were lots of Miniblins and then one big Moblin?

 

[Jonnas]

My memory's hazy, but I thought...

 

[spoiler=]...there were lots of Miniblins and then one big Moblin?

 

Yes, that's correct. I just thought that the leader was of a different subspecies

 

Turns out, it's "Big Blin". Same thing, really.

 

[Fierce_LiNk]

I'm not condemning TP for having conventional sidequests, I've condemning the fact that it ONLY has conventional sidequests and very little else. There's a big difference.

 

That's fair enough, but it would also be fair to say that this is a very traditional Zelda game, almost a bit too traditional. More "new" or unconventional sidequests would have been great, and we will probably will see that with the next Zelda game, as that already looks like it's taking on a different approach to the game. I can see why we got the sidequests that we did get. Its very much the Ocarina of Time for the new generation.

 

 

Absolutely, they were and I agree, they blended seamlessly with the landscape. The dungeon art design was excellent, from Arbiter's Grounds onwards anyway.

 

Its good that we agree on this. Personally, I'd like to see more of this in the future, and I think the dungeon designs and locations should be higher on the priority list than sidequests. Sidequests are really fun and great, but not everybody chooses to do every single one, whereas dungeons are essential. Both would be great, mind.

 

It's really not that hard to understand. Every Zelda has hunt quests, where you go off and find things. Having TP's hunt quests be poes and bugs shouldn't be heralded as some amazing feature of the game, because it is a staple Zelda gaming mechanic that's been present in every 3D Zelda. Things should be improving with each iteration, you have to look beyond the standard ever-present elements of the game (the bug and poe collecting) and see what NEW elements there are, that stand out.

 

Yes, I know they're not new elements, but I feel that Twilight Princess managed to refine these areas. Its an evolution of the franchise rather than a revolution. Its taking all the bits which worked in past games and uses them well. The sidequests may not be as brilliant as they are in Majora's Mask, but then that gives Nintendo a good starting point to work on in the next game.

 

As for the main game itself, there were some great new additions that Twilight Princess brought to the table. I'm very, very surprised that not a single post in this thread has not mentioned the Wolf Link gameplay mechanic. It worked brilliantly, whereas I was previously unsure whether it would suit this style of game or not. As we already mentioned, the locations and settings for the dungeons were great. The set pieces, such as the duel on the Bridge were brilliant, imo. Its a very memorable game.

 

We're in very different camps. You side with the Wind Waker and I'm in the Twilight Princess corner. For the sake of killing each other over this, we should probably agree that our opinions probably won't change and this is as good as it's going to get.

[Ronnie]

Yes let's do that, but quickly...

 

The set pieces, such as the duel on the Bridge were brilliant, imo

 

That's just it, they were excellent but the kidnapping of what's his name, the duel on the bridge, the escorting what's her name to Kakariko village and delivering a wounded Midna to Princess Zelda, all those set pieces and more happen in the first half of the game, it's packed full of great content that makes the mirror shard sequence feel like a chore, heading from one dungeon to the next, without advancing the story much or giving us any big action sequences. Hence my point of the second half of the game feeling quite rushed and empty.