Trans

[chairdriver]

I just read this, about the Two-Spirit People of Indigenous Americans:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/oct/11/two-spirit-people-north-america?intcmp=239

 

Resparked thought about the concept of trans -- being outside of the gender binary of male/female.

 

Some questions you might want to consider:

Why is the biological determinant of the XX and the XY predominantly seen as the be-all-end-all with regards to gender identity in Western society?

For what reasons do you think there is, in some instances, animosity shown shown towards trans people in today's society?

To what degree do you feel gender roles and gender identity are "nature", and what degree "nurture"?

How would you feel if a close family member (say a sibling or a parent) came to the conclusion they wanted to identify as something other than their biological sex?

[Paj!]

JOHN.

 

This is why I called my 6ths English creative writing piece, "Two Spirit". (i.e the one about a pregnant woman versus an alien).

 

P.S There's a female-to-male transgender on my course, and I've thought of him as "him" since day 1, but it seems a lot of my friends have trouble seperating the fact he was once female with who he identifies as now. It literally never affected my perception of him. Maybe cause he doesn't look like a girl (much). Unlike another person I know who is female, but only responds to male "calls" or whatever the word is. "His", "he" etc. It's hard to reconcile the idea of "she's a woman" with "he".

[Diageo]

I don't know or have ever met any trans people [that I know of]. And so, I have never really thought much about them or the concept of being unhappy with your gender.

 

If someone I knew were to decide to change their gender, I would be inquisitive yet not judgemental. It would be an interesting topic to learn about.

[Daft]

Some questions you might want to consider:

Why is the biological determinant of the XX and the XY predominantly seen as the be-all-end-all with regards to gender identity in Western society?

For what reasons do you think there is, in some instances, animosity shown shown towards trans people in today's society?

 

Judeo-Christian tradition, most likely.

 

To what degree do you feel gender roles and gender identity are "nature", and what degree "nurture"?

 

Don't the initial questions imply that gender is a social construct, for the most part? What exactly does it mean to be a man/woman, anyway?

 

I guess I would say it was a mix since, although nature plays for the most part a much larger role imo, identity is defined opposition to an 'other'. Who knows? This question bores me. It's asking for a generalisation.

 

How would you feel if a close family member (say a sibling or a parent) came to the conclusion they wanted to identify as something other than their biological sex?

 

Depends on how far they felt they needed to take it. I'd probably feel uncomfortable if they physically wanted to change sex since I can imagine the change would get rid of the family member as I knew them, in a sense it would be a loss. This is all conjecture, though. Who knows?

 

 

Also, get the T out of LGBT.

[chairdriver]

Also, get the T out of LGBT.

 

Why do you say this?

[Daft]

Why do you say this?

 

Because LGB is about sexuality.

 

T isn't the same. It is about gender.

 

I think they both need their own spaces to be defined and understood.

[chairdriver]

 

Because LGB is about sexuality.

 

T isn't the same. It is about gender.

 

I'd argue that all the letters are:

 

a) about gender roles / gender identity.

 

b) linked by the way they are all anti-heteronormative.

 

 

Purely in sexuality terms, I have nothing in common with a lesbian. I don't fuck women. She doesn't fuck men.

 

When you introduce gender roles, I begin to have something in common -- we might both be "femme" or we might both be disposed to be assertive (which is usually attributed as a masculine quality) -- there is something that links us.

 

But what really connects G to L (and to B and to T) is that we experience similar pressures from society (for example, to conform) and have similar concerns (for example, marriage rights), which is a lot more worthwhile of a grouping discriminant than simply sexuality.

 

Disincluding T therefore makes no sense, because they are clearly anti-heteronormative. And as a corollary, it's natural to include Q, which covers all forms of anti-heteronormativity.

 

 

[Also, from a practical viewpoint, unnecessary exclusion is rarely a helpful policy. Especially when LGB are particularly concerned with people opening their minds.]

[Daft]

I disagree with most of that but I need my sleep now.

[chairdriver]

I think they both need their own spaces to be defined and understood.

 

Perhaps.

 

I think it's in some respects useful for T to be grouped with LGB, because they can somewhat ride the backs of their success in the rights movement.

 

But as you perhaps imply, T often gets overlooked. It perhaps feels like people are like "Ok I can comprehend and appreciate someone fancying someone of their own sex; I've been diverse enough now, I can't be bothered to consider or care about trannies". Perhaps it would be useful for them to have a more separated presence?

[ReZourceman]

I think everyone has the right.

[chairdriver]

I disagree with most of that but I need my sleep now.

 

Was thinking more about this.

 

It depends entirely on your purpose of making the grouping. For example, if you are a gay guy, who has a one-track mind on sex, you might think the L and T should go (reason I say this is because at uni someone genuinely asked the LGBTSoc if a "Men Who Sleep With Men"Soc could be founded . I quite liked the idea, because it's so direct in its intent, which I think is refreshing and kinda fun/kinky).

 

If you are concerned with legal rights, you might only include LGB. Whereas if you are concerned with more abstract ideal politics you might consider LGBT.

 

 

I assume your reason for grouping is "These people have sex with members of the same sex"? That makes sense from someone outside the group, but for me inside the group, as G, why should I be related to L (who I feel sexually polar opposite to) if sexual practice is your way of grouping?

 

I'd prefer to be grouped with straight females. At least then we'd have something in common to talk about :p.

 

 

Basically, if you're going to disinclude T, I'm going to disinclude L.

 

(Disinclude is my fave word BTW. Feels so much more satisfying than exclude. Maybe next time I'll do a Robyn and say "Include out")

Edited October 15, 2010 by chairdriver

[Diageo]

I assume your reason for grouping is "These people have sex with members of the same sex"? That makes sense from someone outside the group, but for me inside the group, as G, why should I be related to L (who I feel sexually polar opposite to) if sexual practice is your way of grouping?

A gay person and lesbian person have the connection that they both like a person of the same sex. If sexuality is the reason for the grouping, then that is the only connection you need.

Anything else is just preference.

 

I however have not researched the reason behind the grouping, I always thought it was related to sexuality.

[Will]

They're also connected in that they're freaks and should be kept away from normal people (except hot lesbians, they're allowed.)

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

They're also connected in that they're freaks and should be kept away from normal people (except hot lesbians' date=' they're allowed.)[/quote']

 

I should NOT have laughed as much as I did at this post!

[MoogleViper]

And as a corollary, it's natural to include Q, which covers all forms of anti-heteronormativity.

 

Surely if Q covers all forms then that's more reason not to include it. Or to just call it Q and not LGBT.

[ReZourceman]

Ive never had a Lesbian Gay Bacon Tomato sandwich, but it doesn't sound that appetising.

[Ville]

I just read this, about the Two-Spirit People of Indigenous Americans:

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/oct/11/two-spirit-people-north-america?intcmp=239

 

Wow, nice read...just more respect for the North American Indians.

 

For what reasons do you think there is, in some instances, animosity shown towards trans people in today's society?

 

Uncertainty and shame of the masculine / feminine qualities which people try to deny and repress in themselves...

 

To what degree do you feel gender roles and gender identity are "nature", and what degree "nurture"?

 

More nature, though nurture obviously has an impact too...also, the biological body: women do have to suffer more emotional instability due to their periods...

 

How would you feel if a close family member (say a sibling or a parent) came to the conclusion they wanted to identify as something other than their biological sex?

 

Fine with me. I don't believe in a set gender anyway...the biological body is of certain type, of course, but apart from this everyone has their own unique mix of so called "masculine" / "feminine" qualities. Also, some people are attracted to males, some to females etc; biological gender just happens to vary...

 

Thus I'd say that drop the labels...why do we have to make a division between heterosexuals and all the others anyway? Why not just say who you fancy, be it women, men etc? That would be a level ground...As for gender, I prefer not labelling myself as a "man" or anything else for that matter, even though my biological body is male and I do like women. Still, I do have "feminine" qualities as well, so I can just as easily imagine having been born a "woman" instead. Thus I rather see myself as a mixture of "masculine" and "feminine" qualities, which just happen to be located in a man's body...kind of like the two-spirit concept discussed in that article.

[Charlie]

They're also connected in that they're freaks and should be kept away from normal people (except hot lesbians' date=' they're allowed.)[/quote']

 

Do hot lesbians exist outside of porn?

[jayseven]

Do hot lesbians exist outside of porn?

 

Oooooh, yes.

 

I <3 Brighton :P

 

(but the NOT still, both literally and metaphorically, outweigh the hot)

 

On topic: IDC.

[Paj!]

I know a hot lesbian. As in, stunning to look at/fresh-faced/gorge. She's (coincidental to this thread) dating a trans person (female to male).

[Charlie]

I know a hot lesbian. As in, stunning to look at/fresh-faced/gorge. She's (coincidental to this thread) dating a trans person (female to male).

 

Well that's..... weird. What does she refer to him/her as?

[Paj!]

I...don't know :p. Presumably he. Like everyone else would. I know her through him, so have only met her a few times.

[Diageo]

She's a lesbian but she's going out with a he?

[Grazza]

My compassionate response is: each to his own. I don't expect everyone to be like me, or to understand everything in the world. On the other hand, for their own good, I do think "trans" people should seek psychiatric help. Is it attention-seeking? Is it a deep-rooted psychological issue? Some sort of rebellion?

 

I also think they should go to the doctor's and get their hormones checked. If a man is feminine, for example, a shot of testosterone might make him feel a lot better. It might make him feel like a man.

 

I'm not trying to be right-wing, but political correctness is not always useful. After all, a sex change would be a terrible thing to regret.

[ReZourceman]