How do you solve a problem like North Korea?

[Nicktendo]

Because they are not allowed to trade internationally due to US sanctions. Funny how the majority of the global problems of the 20th/21st Century can be traced back to a single nation trying to tell everyone else what to do by spreading 'freedom' and 'democracy'

[Serebii]

At least this means we'll have a new series of MASH soon

[Twozzok]

Essential Watching:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w08zwl5VwbM - Dispatches - Undercover in the secret state of North Korea

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1875007335054132657 - Children of the Secret State - North Korea

 

Essential Reading:

 

http://judiciary.senate.gov/hearings/testimony.cfm?id=292&wit_id=665

 

Seriously, read this now.

 

It's a woman recounting her time in North Korean prison camps. This isn't just an exception, this is the rule.

[Nicktendo]

Essential Reading:

 

http://judiciary.senate.gov/hearings/testimony.cfm?id=292&wit_id=665

 

Seriously, read this now.

 

It's a woman recounting her time in North Korean prison camps. This isn't just an exception, this is the rule.

 

Guantanamo Bay says hi.

[Twozzok]

Yes because in America you're imprisoned and tortured for speaking against the leadership.

 

You wanna escape? Better not like your family because they're the ones that will be imprisoned and tortured.

 

You're analogy is effective.

[Nicktendo]

Look I'm sorry if I come across as a massive c*** but I am so fed up of people focusing on certain ills of the world while ignoring others, which are arguably much worse.

 

Over 65,000 innocent people are DEAD in Iraq and Afghanistan.

How many millions of innocent people died and are STILL dying in Vitenam after the use of chemical weapons?

How many innocent people died in Japan after the use of Atomic bombs, how the hell were the even morally justified?

Why were the Taliban supplied with US money and weapons in the Seventies?

Why are we fighting a war on Terror? What the hell is terror? How can we defeat it? Will we ever defeat it, or are we actually making things WORSE?

Why is the US spending more than the ENTIRE world combined on defence when people are still going hungry in many countries?

 

Why are we still doing and listening to what this supposedly 'great nation' tells us to do? Why must we 'remove the threat' of North Korea, when we are the ones antagonising them by cutting them off from the world, just because Washington doesn't agree with the regime and why does it see itself as some sort of moral force for good for the entire world?

 

I'm in no way condoning what goes on in North Korea and have made that point numerous times in this thread, but seriously, what the fuck are we doing? We are surely making the situation a hell of a lot worse by continuing these actions. We are just as bad as the regime by not allowing them food and aid, by not engaging in positive talks and actually taking an equal approach instead of a dominant "here's what you must do" if you want what we have. It's ridiculous, it's just encouraging them to stand up for themselves. Just because America wants access to every human and every economy on the planet to suit it's own ends. It's absurd.

 

And don't separate what goes on in North Korea from Guantanamo Bay. People suspected of terrorism, tortured, denied basic human rights. How the hell is it any different? How can the US honestly expect people to buy into the bullshit it promotes when it acts in such a morally corrupt and hypocritical way.

 

You should lead by example, not because you have the biggest weapons and the biggest economy and can force people to do what you want.

[Twozzok]

NATO regularly offers to supply food etc, NK (not as) regularly turn them down. I think the last time Kim Jong Il started threatening everyone it was because he needed some food as they can't even feed their army properly.

 

 

 

I'm not seperating Guantanomo from (pretty much) every prison in NK. I'm just saying when that kind of prison is the norm, something is seriously wrong.

 

And NK is a threat because the leadership is absolute nuts. They know they can near enough do anything bar full out attack and have basically no repurcussions.

[MoogleViper]

why does it see itself as some sort of moral force for good for the entire world?

 

Quote from Sarah Palin on Obama;

 

"We have a president, perhaps for the very first time since the founding of our republic, who doesn't appear to believe that America is the greatest earthly force for good the world has ever seen."

 

 

Fucking morons.

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

Quote from Sarah Palin on Obama;

 

"We have a president, perhaps for the very first time since the founding of our republic, who doesn't appear to believe that America is the greatest earthly force for good the world has ever seen."

 

 

Fucking morons.

 

And here I was, thinking the stupid bitch couldn't get any dumber.

[Nicktendo]

And NK is a threat because the leadership is absolute nuts. They know they can near enough do anything bar full out attack and have basically no repurcussions.

 

As yet, North Korean govt. hasn't used an Atomic Bomb, Chemical Weapons or generally caused mass destruction on innocent civilians of another nation to suit it's own ends. So we can safely assume it's not quite as nuts as the ones previously mentioned....

 

Nor has it invaded a Middle Eastern nation for utterly pathetic reasons which underneath the 'real reasons' contained unprecedented lucrative defence contracts to it's national construction companies, allowed billions and billions of dollars to be diverted to fund this at the expense of its own poorest citizens needs, and allowed the localised occupation and control of the 1/3rd of the world's most expensive and important fuel source, because it consumes far, far more than what it actually has.

 

So when they do something along those lines, I'll label them nuts.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Nicktendo

[Twozzok]

A lot of their top generals etc, are overwieght. While lots of their people reduced to eating clay.

 

From wikipedia:

 

North Korea is the most militarized country in the world today,[4] having the fourth largest army in the world, at about 1,106,000 armed personnel, with about 20% of men ages 17–54 in the regular armed forces.[5] It also has a reserve force comprising 8,200,000 personnel. It operates an enormous network of military facilities scattered around the country, a large weapons production basis, a dense air defense system, the third largest chemical weapons stockpile in the world,[6] and includes the largest Special Forces contingent (numbering 180,000 men).[7]

 

That shit's expensive. Costing them ~$6b a year. Their GDP is only $28b.

 

 

Not crazy? They sunk a SK ship for apparently no reason. They kidknapped japanese citizens from Japanese territory in an effort to turn them into spies[edit: this one I'm gonna say might not be true as as far I can't find a source. I'm sure I read it somewhere ]. They kidknapped a South Korean film director to produce a godzilla remake. He is also a god of sports if you belive his propoganda. And a Internet Expert.

 

 

 

 

EDIT:

And don't separate what goes on in North Korea from Guantanamo Bay. People suspected of terrorism, tortured, denied basic human rights. How the hell is it any different? How can the US honestly expect people to buy into the bullshit it promotes when it acts in such a morally corrupt and hypocritical way.

 

(Another post on another forum I thought was appropriate. Not entirely due to slight differences in context, but you get the gist)

 

"How dare a country who imprisons 3.2% of their population and lets some of their citizens go hungry pretend to be superior to a country who forces their political prisoners to stand in coffin-sized rooms for weeks at a time while sleeping in a pool of shit and maggots, eating live sewer rats to ward off starvation, and often coming out dead or permanently crippled from the ordeal if they so much as look a prison guard in the eye. Fucking hypocrites :blank:"

Edited November 24, 2010 by Twozzok

[MoogleViper]

A lot of their top generals etc, are overwieght. While lots of their people reduced to eating clay.

 

Because no leaders have been corrupt before?

 

Churchill was feasting whilst the rest of the population lived on rations.

[Twozzok]

Doesn't make it right. If I were alive during then I'd probably condemn him for it aswell?

[The fish]

As yet, North Korean govt. hasn't used an Atomic Bomb, Chemical Weapons or generally caused mass destruction on innocent civilians of another nation to suit it's own ends. So we can safely assume it's not quite as nuts as the ones previously mentioned....

 

Nor has it invaded a Middle Eastern nation for utterly pathetic reasons which underneath the 'real reasons' contained unprecedented lucrative defence contracts to it's national construction companies, allowed billions and billions of dollars to be diverted to fund this at the expense of its own poorest citizens needs, and allowed the localised occupation and control of the 1/3rd of the world's most expensive and important fuel source, because it consumes far, far more than what it actually has.

 

So when they do something along those lines, I'll label them nuts.

 

I think the most nuts thing around here is your baseless idea that something is nothing if it's not the most extreme.

 

America are dicks, and so are North Korea. I personally think the US is a little less dickish because you can be there and say it's a dick.

 

Oh, and I take it from what you're saying that North Korea wouldn't invade a Middle Eastern nation for utterly pathetic reasons which underneath the 'real reasons' contain unprecedented lucrative defence contracts to it's national construction companies, allow billions and billions of dollars to be diverted to fund this at the expense of its own poorest citizens needs, and allow the localised occupation and control of the 1/3rd of the world's most expensive and important fuel source, because it consumes far, far more than what it actually has, if it had the ability to do so?

[Ramar]

As yet, North Korean govt. hasn't used an Atomic Bomb, Chemical Weapons or generally caused mass destruction on innocent civilians of another nation to suit it's own ends. So we can safely assume it's not quite as nuts as the ones previously mentioned....

 

I'm not too smart on WWII, but wasn't the use of the atomic bombs pivotal in bringing an end to WWII? That doesn't really make up for the massive loss of civilian lives, but without a better way of wording it, maybe it was a necessary evil. How much longer could WWII gone on had it not happened?

 

I think using the bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima as a tool to show how America is worse than North Korea is a bit extreme.

[Shorty]

Quote from Sarah Palin on Obama;

 

"We have a president, perhaps for the very first time since the founding of our republic, who doesn't appear to believe that America is the greatest earthly force for good the world has ever seen."

 

If someone from Obama's administration had said this, it would've been almost inspirational....

[The fish]

I'm not too smart on WWII, but wasn't the use of the atomic bombs pivotal in bringing an end to WWII? That doesn't really make up for the massive loss of civilian lives, but without a better way of wording it, maybe it was a necessary evil. How much longer could WWII gone on had it not happened?

 

The planned landing on Honshu, Operation Coronet, was scheduled for March 1st 1946. The conservative estimate for combined Operation Olympic (the invasion of Kyushu in November 1945) and Operation Coronet, collectively called Operation Downfall, was 23,000 casualties for the first 30 days amongst US military forces. The highest was 49,000. For 90 days (ie the estimated time taken to secure the surrender of Japan by conventional military means), the estimates range from 125,000 to 1,200,000. This is for casualties exclusively amongst US military forces. The IJA was universally estimated to lose around 70,000, and 5-10 million of Japanese civilians were expected to do as they had done on Okinawa (actively aggressive against the Americans), of which most were expected to be killed in wave suicide charges.

 

Interesting fact: Nearly 500,000 Purple Heart medals were manufactured in anticipation of the casualties resulting from the invasion of Japan. To the present date, all the American military casualties of the sixty years following the end of World War II - including the Korean and Vietnam Wars - have not exceeded that number. In 2003, there were still 120,000 of these Purple Heart medals in stock. There are so many in surplus that combat units in Iraq and Afghanistan are able to keep Purple Hearts on-hand for immediate award to wounded soldiers on the field.

[jayseven]

Did you memorise that?

[Nicktendo]

I'll just leave this here...

 

Ooooh...

 

Wikileaks release to damage foreign relations, US says

 

Wikileaks plans to release seven times as many documents as it did in October

Continue reading the main story

 

A spokesman said: "These revelations are harmful to the United States and our interests."

 

He added: "They are going to create tension in relationships between our diplomats and our friends around the world."

 

The whistleblower website says it will publish nearly three million documents.

 

The spokesman, PJ Crowley, said the state department had known for some time that Wikileaks had obtained some of its classified documents. He said congress had been warned of the impending leak.

 

He added that US diplomatic missions around the world had begun notifying other governments that the documents may be released within days.

 

"We wish this would not happen, but we are obviously prepared for the possibility that it will," he said.

 

Military information

A Pentagon spokesman, Col David Lapan, said the defence department had also notified congressional committees of the expected Wikileaks release.

 

He said that although the files were believed to be state department documents, they could contain information about military tactics or reveal the identities of sources.

 

Wikileaks said on Monday that it planned to release seven times as many documents as it released in October, when it posted some 400,000 documents about the Iraq war on its site.

 

In a message on its Twitter feed, it said: "Next release is 7x the size of the Iraq War Logs. intense pressure over it for months. Keep us strong."

 

It would be Wikileaks' third mass release of classified documents after it published 77,000 secret US files on the Afghan conflict in July.

 

Wikileaks argues the release of the documents has shed light on the wars, including allegations of torture and reports that suggest 15,000 additional civilian deaths in Iraq.

 

Says it all really.

 

 

And as for WW2, if killing millions of innocent civilians is a necessary evil, to stop a greater evil, give me an atomic bomb now, I'll be happy to drop it on New York in an attempt to stop the Americanisation of the world, and free 2 billion people from economic oppression and slavery.

 

All of this is subjective. It's only a necessary evil if you agree with the Western point of view. Was it worse than global fascism? Of course not. Is it worse than anything else? Of course it is, but that would mean the people in power were removed from this position of power.

 

Since we're taught that Westernised life is the way forward from birth and everything else is evil, oppressive and/or wrong yada yada, I doubt many people in the West would gladly support a movement to bring an end to this way of life, everyone else can be labelled terrorists. Of course in their regime, where their 'way of life' was drilled into you from birth it would be labelled propaganda, but no, we shall call our version freedom, and people who are 'free' to not agree with it are stupid/insane.

[The fish]

Did you memorise that?

 

I double checked all the figures, but I new the basics.

 

Since we're taught that Westernised life is the way forward from birth and everything else is evil, oppressive and/or wrong yada yada

 

Wow, you went to one weird fucking school...

[Nicktendo]

Wow, you went to one weird fucking school...

 

Didn't mention anything about school, tbf.

[The fish]

And as for WW2, if killing millions of innocent civilians is a necessary evil, to stop a greater evil, give me an atomic bomb now, I'll be happy to drop it on New York in an attempt to stop the Americanisation of the world, and free 2 billion people from economic oppression and slavery.

 

How will that free those people, or prevent deaths?

 

Didn't mention anything about school, tbf.

 

Well I assumed you weren't stupid enough to trust everything you read in the media, so unless you feel your parents are trying to indoctrinate you, school is the only real other contender.

 

I'll just leave this here...

Ooooh...

 

Says it all really.

 

Replace the country loosing that volume of documents with any other reasonably major world player and the fear of damage to relations would be identical.

Edited November 24, 2010 by The fish
Automerged Doublepost

[Nicktendo]

How will that free those people, or prevent deaths?

 

Read my posts on the first few pages. Or alternatively, have a look at how IMF loans are socially and economically influencing South America and more recently Vietnam.

 

Well I assumed you weren't stupid enough to trust everything you read in the media, so unless you feel your parents are trying to indoctrinate you, school is the only real other contender.

 

See: Society.

 

Replace the country loosing that volume of documents with any other reasonably major world player and the fear of damage to relations would be identical.

 

If they're a force for moral good, what have they got to hide?

[The fish]

Read my posts on the first few pages. Or alternatively, have a look at how IMF loans are socially and economically influencing South America and more recently Vietnam.

 

I've read them before, and I don't recall the passage stating how the atomic bombing of NYC would prevent otherwise unavoidable deaths. The IMF may not be the most ethical people in the world, but I can't see how that could in any way be rectified by bombing NYC.

 

If they're a force for moral good, what have they got to hide?

 

I don't think they are, but even countries I support more than the USA have still got things they don't want share with the rest of the world.

 

Oh, and what is morally good is ultimately dependant of the individual making the judgement. I dare say (mainly because I know people like this) that there are people out there who think Saudi Arabia is morally perfect, and yet it still has things it wants to hide.

[Nicktendo]

I've read them before, and I don't recall the passage stating how the atomic bombing of NYC would prevent otherwise unavoidable deaths. The IMF may not be the most ethical people in the world, but I can't see how that could in any way be rectified by bombing NYC.

 

It can't, it's a completely ridiculous concept. But it would be a show of strength to the US, that many people in the world don't agree with their point of view. Except unlike Japan, they wouldn't be deterred, if anything they would fight back harder because they are in such a dominant position as a result of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

 

9/11 resulted in 3,000+ innocent deaths and the resulting 'war on terror' resulted in 65,000+ innocent deaths.

 

That's not a good ratio to place a bet on.