Commercialism, Capitalism, Communism, Anarchism, and a bit of Buddha love

[Dante]

Incoming Tokyo government threatens split with US

 

Yukio Hatoyama, the leader of the Democratic Party of Japan, has caused alarm in Washington after publishing an article blaming the US for the ills of capitalism, the global economy and "the destruction of human dignity".

 

He also intends to examine an agreement that permits US warships to dock at Japanese ports, in violation of the nation's non-nuclear principles. Mr Hatoyama says he will also look again at the $6 billion cost faced by Japan to transfer thousands of US troops from their base in Okinawa to the Pacific island of Guam amid a wide-ranging review of the American military presence on Japanese soil.

 

His election campaign promised a more "independent" foreign policy from Washington and closer relations with Asian neighbours, including China. On Thursday, he repeated his intention to defy the US and end the Maritime Self-Defence Force's resupply mission in the Indian Ocean.

 

Mr Hatoyama will be sworn in on Wednesday after an historic victory that ended decades of near unbroken rule by the Liberal Democratic Party. He will have his first meeting with Barack Obama, the US president, at the United Nations on Sep 22.

 

The Pentagon reminded Japan of the expectations it faced as a "great power and one of the world's wealthiest countries". Geoff Morrell, a spokesman, said: "There is an international responsibility, we believe, for everyone to do their share, as best they can, to contribute to this effort to bring about a more peaceful and secure Afghanistan."

 

The Defence Department would not "prejudge" Japan's new political leadership, he added.

 

"We think that when the responsibility of governing comes about that people will appreciate, as we have every reason to believe they do, the importance of this alliance and the importance of working together on these [security] agreements," he said.

 

Makoto Watanabe, a professor of media and communication at Hokkaido Bunkyo University, said: "The US has been critical of new trends in Japan, but we are not a colony of Washington and we should be able to say what we want.

 

"The Japan-US relationship will remain our most important bilateral link, but while under previous governments Japan had become a yes-man to the US, this suggests to me that healthy change is taking place.

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

Well, he's right about the US and the ills of capitalism, the global economy and "the destruction of human dignity".

[Ashley]

Well to be fair, until the bubble burst in the 90's Japan loved capitalism.

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

Well to be fair, until the bubble burst in the 90's Japan loved capitalism.

Yeah, well, I just the think the current crisis has more than proved that a non-controlled market isn't the best idea. Just like the Soviet Union proved that hardcore communism doesn't really work in reality, either. It's like that with most political ideas: They work on paper, but you can rest assured that there will most likely always be someone to fuck it up in the real world. The more extreme ideologies like communism and capitalism just create more extreme problems.

[Ashley]

Communism and capitalism aren't extreme ideas. They can be taken to extremes but its not like you can have comu-capitalism. T'is one or the other really and I think capitalism works more than communism. Trading for goods and most rich = most powerful has existed for a long long time. Now we just have a term for it Communism, in my opinion, is like Santa Claus. It's a nice concept but it doesn't really work in practice.

[Shino]

Communism and capitalism aren't extreme ideas. They can be taken to extremes but its not like you can have comu-capitalism. T'is one or the other really and I think capitalism works more than communism. Trading for goods and most rich = most powerful has existed for a long long time. Now we just have a term for it Communism, in my opinion, is like Santa Claus. It's a nice concept but it doesn't really work in practice.

 

There is such a thing as a mixed economy, which is what we have in Europe. Even the US isn't completely capitalist.

 

I think this attitude its a bit naive of the PM of Japan, at least being so open and confrontational about it, what does Japan really have to gain from this?

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

Communism and capitalism aren't extreme ideas. They can be taken to extremes but its not like you can have comu-capitalism. T'is one or the other really and I think capitalism works more than communism. Trading for goods and most rich = most powerful has existed for a long long time. Now we just have a term for it Communism, in my opinion, is like Santa Claus. It's a nice concept but it doesn't really work in practice.

No political idea works perfectly in real life. For that we would need perfect people - and no people are perfect. Both communism and capitalism are politically far out to the left and right, so in that sense they are extreme ideas. They're ideologies taken to the pinnacle. I wouldn't say that capitalism works any better than communism. The big, rich, and powerful are trampling down the small and poor, and inequality is wide-spread. Communism created dictators, but so did capitalism: Greed and egoism.

 

(I'm probably sounding like a commie right now. )

[Ashley]

Don't make me get the big guy on you!

 

 

I personally feel we in the Western world will never really drop capitalism. We are so used to and like our shiny new toys we buy to placate us.

[Pookiablo]

We just need more economic democracy really - more say over what public money goes towards or at least more transparency and more equal footing between countries. We exploit the fuck out of so many other countries.

[Fresh]

but its not like you can have comu-capitalism.

 

Tell that to China.

[Dannyboy-the-Dane]

Don't make me get the big guy on you!

 

 

I personally feel we in the Western world will never really drop capitalism. We are so used to and like our shiny new toys we buy to placate us.

I think we're talking past each other. Of course, our market will always be pretty free - and it should be that way, because it does indeed create growth (plus we do like our shiny things ) - but when I say "capitalism" I mean "no economic redistribution what so ever" - and that I do not agree with, because it creates a lot of economic losers.

[jayseven]

I personally feel we in the Western world will never really drop capitalism. We are so used to and like our shiny new toys we buy to placate us.

LONG LIVE THE REVOLUTION!

 

Argument: Material goods (their value, their worth, their control over you) vs. The Point Of Life (feelings, experiences, discovery).

 

Synopsis: You're living the lie. Things could be better. Things should be better.

 

Essay to expand on these points: Fuck that shit. I'm tired.

[Ashley]

What is better. Spiritual enlightenment? Is that something we're supposed to aspire to, something to feel better about? SCORE! I GOT SPIRITUAL ENLIGHTENMENT...now what do I do?

[Gizmo]

What is better. Spiritual enlightenment? Is that something we're supposed to aspire to, something to feel better about? SCORE! I GOT SPIRITUAL ENLIGHTENMENT...now what do I do?

 

Surely finding out what to do next is the point of spiritual enlightenment.

[Ashley]

What can come after spiritual enlightenment though? Personally I've always found it as the end. The thing you aspire to by being religious and what not. You can be enlightened by God's almighty awesomeness, but to reach enlightenment is the end game. That's it. Finito.

[jayseven]

What is better. Spiritual enlightenment? Is that something we're supposed to aspire to, something to feel better about? SCORE! I GOT SPIRITUAL ENLIGHTENMENT...now what do I do?

 

What can come after spiritual enlightenment though? Personally I've always found it as the end. The thing you aspire to by being religious and what not. You can be enlightened by God's almighty awesomeness, but to reach enlightenment is the end game. That's it. Finito.

 

Lol. Dude! Enlightenment is essentially a state of pure peace. Translated into modern lingo for people who think peace is sitting around being bored and stuff; Peace Is Happiness. If you are happy all of the time, then what comes next is of no importance whatsoever.

 

As teh cat and teh alice note in teh book (roughly!);

 

"Oh noes! I HAF CUM TO A FORK IN DA ROAD! Wich wai do I go?"

 

"Where do you want to go?"

 

"I don't Knoooooo!"

 

"Then it doesn't matter."

 

If you are enlightened tehn you find endless, endless joy in what you do, no matter what you do. If you rely on Supermegastation1080 then... well you aren't going to be happy if you don't get it, is all you think you know.

 

It is your consumerist mind which is even making you think that there has to be a next or a better. If the world's technologies froze today - if we could no longer consume more, then what would happen? If more is not possible, could you be happy? If yes, then why hunger for more?

[Ashley]

I think I would constantly have a hunger for more. Technological or whatever. I've never been one to rest on my laurels. Nor my hardys. To quote; "If you stop striving for perfection you may as well be dead."

[jayseven]

Well the general consensus is that nobody since the Buddha has actually achieved enlightenment, so generally trying to get enlightened is striving for perfection. All capitalism tells us to do is if you buy this, you will be one step closer to perfection. And by perfection, we mean that we promise to bring out the next step to perfection at some point in the future.

 

I see we're playing a quotation war! But your Wildesques actually do nothing but sound like they mean something. That quote suggests both "if you don't at least try for perfection, then you may as well be dead" as well as "if you have already attained perfection, then you may as well be dead, because you're not trying anymore."

 

While you are convinced that you will still have this hunger for MOAR, you aren't questioning why? THAT is the important question. Why are you hungry for that new ipodwhateveritisnext? WHY? WHY are you not content with the one you have? What's that? Oh, the new one offers an extra 200GB of music? Oh, well that sure is a big number! That's a lot bigger than the big number they told us was the next step to perfection two years ago! So now you'll be able to carry around four lifetimes worth of music instead of one? Sweet! Oh yeah, totally. It's in the choice we have as human beings that totally defines us as alive and totally awesome. No. It's not. The vast majority of choice is false. We go from the "you can choose between what you have (which last year we told you was the next step towards perfection) and what you don't have (which is the ALL NEW IMPROVED FLAVOUR next step towards perfection)" style of choice to... well, a genuine element of control would be nice. Really the choices you are presented are no different to one another. By saying to you "hey, dude, so, like, we have your entire life in our hands, right. So we're gonna let you choose whether we do A or B with it. K?" Where is choice C? Why can't I have my own life in my hand? Why can't I choose something not on the list?

 

Ok, so that bit about choices was trying rather quickly to bridge the gap between the typical "oh look A NEW BETTER FASTER STRONGER ET CETERA SOMETHING OR OTHER I MUST I MUST I MUST HAVE IT" to general "oh look WE'RE TRAPPED INSIDE WALLS EVERYWHERE. THE SKY IS UNTOUCHABLE. I AM NOT FREE" kinda rant. Sorry.

 

POINT: You will still hunger for MOAR. Is that your fault, or 22 years of advertising-led humanity's fault?

[Paj!]

Yeah, but "enlightenment"tm isn't real.

[jayseven]

I hope you're aware of your own self-irony. Which I guess wouldn't make it irony...

 

You stick with your starbucks. I'll stick with my meditating.

[Paj!]

Cause I'm such a consumer whore.

 

I've meditated before, but never got any solace from it, and so assume I'm doing it wrong. But also, one of the reason I hate going to bed early (i.e before midnight) unles I'm wiped out, is cause my mind will drift to thoughts of death/existance/lack of a higher power/blah blah traumatising, as I have no distractions.

 

So I don't really like the idea of meditating, because even though it's meant to clear your head, I think that's what's left after all the crank is removed.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Paj!

[jayseven]

That's perhaps another topic. How are you meditating, and for how long? Doesn't it worry, startle, or at least annoy you that your brain is actually capable of having thoughts that you don't want? This is more awesome than the thread. Ripping it naow.

 

The irony I saw was more along the lines of how anti-trademarks I am - of how trademarks and patents go against anarchy/whatever.

[Ashley]

Well the general consensus is that nobody since the Buddha has actually achieved enlightenment, so generally trying to get enlightened is striving for perfection. All capitalism tells us to do is if you buy this, you will be one step closer to perfection. And by perfection, we mean that we promise to bring out the next step to perfection at some point in the future.

 

I see we're playing a quotation war! But your Wildesques actually do nothing but sound like they mean something. That quote suggests both "if you don't at least try for perfection, then you may as well be dead" as well as "if you have already attained perfection, then you may as well be dead, because you're not trying anymore."

 

While you are convinced that you will still have this hunger for MOAR, you aren't questioning why? THAT is the important question. Why are you hungry for that new ipodwhateveritisnext? WHY? WHY are you not content with the one you have? What's that? Oh, the new one offers an extra 200GB of music? Oh, well that sure is a big number! That's a lot bigger than the big number they told us was the next step to perfection two years ago! So now you'll be able to carry around four lifetimes worth of music instead of one? Sweet! Oh yeah, totally. It's in the choice we have as human beings that totally defines us as alive and totally awesome. No. It's not. The vast majority of choice is false. We go from the "you can choose between what you have (which last year we told you was the next step towards perfection) and what you don't have (which is the ALL NEW IMPROVED FLAVOUR next step towards perfection)" style of choice to... well, a genuine element of control would be nice. Really the choices you are presented are no different to one another. By saying to you "hey, dude, so, like, we have your entire life in our hands, right. So we're gonna let you choose whether we do A or B with it. K?" Where is choice C? Why can't I have my own life in my hand? Why can't I choose something not on the list?

 

Ok, so that bit about choices was trying rather quickly to bridge the gap between the typical "oh look A NEW BETTER FASTER STRONGER ET CETERA SOMETHING OR OTHER I MUST I MUST I MUST HAVE IT" to general "oh look WE'RE TRAPPED INSIDE WALLS EVERYWHERE. THE SKY IS UNTOUCHABLE. I AM NOT FREE" kinda rant. Sorry.

 

POINT: You will still hunger for MOAR. Is that your fault, or 22 years of advertising-led humanity's fault?

 

Wildesque...

(and I believe it was supposed to suggest you never can be perfect, but have to keep trying)

 

 

I'm aware of the goal of capitalism thank you but I think even if you removed capitalism and capitalistic gains from my life I would still be bored, still strive for something more. Ultimately I don't think I'd be happy with just my life. It would be boring. To live in the here and now, never try and do any better. If you're not striving for perfection you may as well be dead because then, you have nothing to go for. Thats it. Die. Now. We are not swans, we're sharks.

 

I'll have you know I'm not hungry for a new iPod thanks. I don't need the extra space. Granted I may sometimes gadgetlust over something but I am quite sensible, I'll buy a new iPod/phone/whatever when I need one, not when a shiny new one comes out. I'm not Jordan thanks very much

 

Of course choice is false, of course capitalism numbs our ambitions. I think there's an over willingness to blame capitalism/advertising but I wasn't just raised on adverts. Hell, until 3 or 4 they're all just flashing pictures. Don't go italicising and SHOUTING to try and make yourself look like some kind of mad genius

 

And yeah, I can't meditate or sleep well either. Too much rambling through my mind about one thing or another. Its a general thing with me really; I can't rest because I always feel like there is more I could be doing. Its why I prefer TV because watching films alone part way through I tend to get thinking "I could be doing this..." Ants in my pants as my nan would say.

[Pyxis]

I think I would constantly have a hunger for more. Technological or whatever. I've never been one to rest on my laurels. Nor my hardys. To quote; "If you stop striving for perfection you may as well be dead."

 

Exactly, desire can be a very good thing.

 

We shouldn't shy away from being upset or unhappy for periods if it leads to us improving ourselves for the better. If we are unhappy with our jobs, we will improve. If we just tell ourselves to be happy and care free, nothing will change and we will go nowhere.

 

Direction is very important, so if I came across a fork in the road, I'd think long and hard about it.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Pyxis

[MoogleViper]

Exactly, desire can be a very good thing.

 

We shouldn't shy away from being upset or unhappy for periods if it leads to us improving ourselves for the better. If we are unhappy with our jobs, we will improve. If we just tell ourselves to be happy and care free, nothing will change and we will go nowhere.

 

Direction is very important, so if I came across a fork in the road, I'd think long and hard about it.

 

But if we are happy and carefree why would we need to change? What's so good about change for the sake of it? Surely you change something because it's not right/you're unhappy with it.