Guest Maase Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Nop, he is dead, but being the god he is, he can go beyond death, and reborn when feeling like it. He's the fucking god, he was the one who made "Death", if he wanted, there would be no death, and everyone would be immortal forever. He's omnipotent, so even though he's dead, the death is a term he created, thus he would destroy the term for him, and come back to life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Don't be silly, God isn't real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gizmo Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Nop, he is dead, but being the god he is, he can go beyond death, and reborn when feeling like it.He's the fucking god, he was the one who made "Death", if he wanted, there would be no death, and everyone would be immortal forever. He's omnipotent, so even though he's dead, the death is a term he created, thus he would destroy the term for him, and come back to life. Surely death is when your conciousness stops functioning, and so, if there is still a part of God that is concious and able to decide when to come back, then he is not dead, but merely has turned off a part of his conciousness. Being "dead" is an end - what you are suggesting is more like "sleep". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maase Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Being dead is an end for us, humans (and we don't even know that, but whatever) God created the term "Death", he can undo the term at any time, even while Dead himself. You are seeing this by our understanding of these meanings, but god created all that, so he knows a lot more about them then us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnas Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 @Maase: I believe what the OP meant was "Can God destroy himself completely?", because if there is an afterlife, the point is moot (like you just said) My opinion on the subject? God being omnipotent and immortal is an assumption made by Man. If God exists, he may, in fact, only be nearly-omnipotent and/or nearly-immortal. Considering omnipotence is impossible to achieve, I conclude that he must be nigh-omnipotent. This allows for two options: 1-Kill himself in case he's mortal; 2-In case he's immortal, he's powerless to commit suicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zell Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 If there is a God, he's probably laughing at us right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Dangerous Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I like this question it made me think. This depends how you define what god or death is. I would say the problem is your question involves time. Life by human definition involves time. God in the 'everything' definition would be out of space and time therefore: 'She' (yes she, unless you want male love) maybe able to experience it on one level. However for 'she' to be able to experience it as 'death', she would need anouther 'part' to percieve her as being dead by definition (thus cancelling out the first part in the process). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navarre Posted June 5, 2009 Author Share Posted June 5, 2009 (edited) This is one of the few times "lol" has been an accurate representation of my reaction. In terms of morality, it frequently contradicts itself and the old testament is pretty damn repulsive - I believe that taking your son and preparing to kill him because an invisible indemonstrable "thing" told you to is a little immoral, and is the first recorded use of the Nuremberg defence - "I was just following orders". As for history, a few things spring to mind off the top of my head - almost everything in the old testament, for a start, and for the new testament, the whole thing about the census is completely rubbish and unsupported anywhere else, and there is nothing I have found that isn't highly suspect and likely to be doctored by more recent Christian scholars that suggests the Jesus ever existed. Hate to quote the Bible to you, but hey, any strong argument needs sources: 38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. 43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead with no clothes. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, and he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, he too passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and looked after him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.' "Which of these three do you think was a neighbour to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise." Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?"Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven. "Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. When he began the reckoning, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents; and as he could not pay, his lord ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, 'Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.' And out of pity for him the lord of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. But that same servant, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and seizing him by the throat he said, 'Pay what you owe.' So his fellow servant fell down and besought him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you.' He refused and went and put him in prison till he should pay the debt. When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their lord all that had taken place. Then his lord summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?' And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart Those three stories led me to respect Jesus, not as the Son of God, but as the greatest moral teacher in history. In my opinion, if we were to consider those stories and to abide by their meaning, the world would be a better place. The Good Samaritan especially is an excellent story for combating racism. I seldom if ever read the Old testament- I understand some of the stories in it are pretty repulsive- and the homophobic tones of the epistles are unattractive. The Gospels, however, are unbeatable in terms of morality. As for history, Luke was an historian ahead of his time- he accurately names tens of historical events, places and people. But the Old testament Books provide any historian a 'reliable' (to all those who did GCSE history) insight as to what life was like in Israel thousands of years ago and helps describe Judaisms early days. I believe Jesus existed. I believe Mohammed existed. I believe the Buddha existed. Why? Because religions don't just start by themselves. To suggest otherwise would be ignorant. I'll reply to the other responses later, can't be arsed right now. Edited June 5, 2009 by navarre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emasher Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Or end up in Hell, how ironic. The belief that those who commit suicide go to hell completely contradicts most of the gospel if you think about it, and was probably edited into the bible by the clergy during the middle ages to stop all the peasants who had such sad lives from committing suicide. Just thought I'd mention that. I also think the "God created us in his own image" thing isn't about physical image, but something else entirely. So its probably irrelevant to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paj! Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 God in the biblical sense isn't real. I'm a pretty spiritual person, but not in spirits. Just in like...energy. But there is no single person who did this then told someone to write it in a book. Let's not lie here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEVILMURRAY Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 If there is a God, he's probably laughing at us right now. My money is on he's having a wank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Hate to quote the Bible to you, but hey, any strong argument needs sources: Those three stories led me to respect Jesus, not as the Son of God, but as the greatest moral teacher in history. In my opinion, if we were to consider those stories and to abide by their meaning, the world would be a better place. The Good Samaritan especially is an excellent story for combating racism. I seldom if ever read the Old testament- I understand some of the stories in it are pretty repulsive- and the homophobic tones of the epistles are unattractive. The Gospels, however, are unbeatable in terms of morality. As for history, Luke was an historian ahead of his time- he accurately names tens of historical events, places and people. But the Old testament Books provide any historian a 'reliable' (to all those who did GCSE history) insight as to what life was like in Israel thousands of years ago and helps describe Judaisms early days. I believe Jesus existed. I believe Mohammed existed. I believe the Buddha existed. Why? Because religions don't just start by themselves. To suggest otherwise would be ignorant. I'll reply to the other responses later, can't be arsed right now. I love these stories as well, just as I love the message of Jesus. In that sense, you could probably call me "Christian". I'm not Christian in the strict sense that I "believe in God" - my beliefs about metaphysics and the spiritual are ... nuanced and complicated (meaning I'm not sure of them myself ) ... but they are also entirely irrelevant. Much of the stuff in the Bible, especially the Old Testament, is quite fucked up and terribly immoral, but the view on love and morals that Jesus shows is one that I agree completely with. Also, on the purely historical aspect of things, other historical sources than the Bible speaks of this Jesus fella calling himself the son of God. Whether he is that or not, I think it's fairly certain that he existed as a person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shorty Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 God could kill himself, just to see what it's like, but then he'd like totally be reborn instantly and just go 'right, fair enough'.* *disclamer: not really, God is not real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoogleViper Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Hell is often defined by the more modern, C of E type Christians (I use this definition as it is the one I am most familiar with) as "existence without God" - not only would this instantly cease to be hell with God there, but I exist without God, and I'm pretty damn happy. I'm sorry but not only is this some typical anti-Christian bollocks it also makes absolutely no sense. The Christian's say that as they believe that God exists. So if we assume that he does exist then you don't exist without God, you just don't believe in him. And if we assume that God doesn't exist, then their definition/idea of hell is false. But you used their definition of hell and then tried to disprove it by saying that you exist without God and you are happy. But for hell to exist you exist with God. So all you've shown is that you can't even have a decent hypothetical conversation without instantly jumping down everyone's throats screaming "THERE IS NO GOD! YOU'RE ALL WRONG AND STUPID!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEVILMURRAY Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 I'm sorry but not only is this some typical anti-Christian bollocks it also makes absolutely no sense. The Christian's say that as they believe that God exists. So if we assume that he does exist then you don't exist without God, you just don't believe in him. I thought what he was getting at was hell for some Christians is existence without God... Wouldn't be nice for them. His concept on being happy without God doesn't matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 I find this discussion pointless. If God exists or not is irrelevant, as we will have to assume that he does to be able to answer the question. That being said, we cannot answer the question anyway, as it is a paradox: God is omnipotent, ergo he can do anything, including not being omnipotent. He can be dead and alive at the same time without problems - or neither at all - just as he can have any, all or no gender. The explanation for this is that God exists outside our realm of understanding and thus outside our laws of logic, making his paradoxical state of being omnipotent possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paj! Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 I find this discussion pointless. If God exists or not is irrelevant, as we will have to assume that he does to be able to answer the question. That being said, we cannot answer the question anyway, as it is a paradox: God is omnipotent, ergo he can do anything, including not being omnipotent. He can be dead and alive at the same time without problems - or neither at all - just as he can have any, all or no gender. The explanation for this is that God exists outside our realm of understanding and thus outside our laws of logic, making his paradoxical state of being omnipotent possible. A.K.A Made up. I think I'd have a better time respecting the idea of god if he wasn't so specifically described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 A.K.A Made up. I think I'd have a better time respecting the idea of god if he wasn't so specifically described. Please don't go there. This thread isn't about whether God exists or not, and if we go there - no matter how proper we try to keep the discussion - it will go wrong. Mud will be thrown, people will be offended, warnings will be issued and threads will be locked. I only joined in on this debate because it wasn't about the existence of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navarre Posted June 6, 2009 Author Share Posted June 6, 2009 Also, on the purely historical aspect of things, other historical sources than the Bible speaks of this Jesus fella calling himself the son of God. Whether he is that or not, I think it's fairly certain that he existed as a person. The historical accounts of Jesus are overwhelming. To question his existence would be like questioning whether or not Julius Ceasar existed, because they've both got around the same amount of historical sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dannyboy-the-Dane Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 The historical accounts of Jesus are overwhelming. To question his existence would be like questioning whether or not Julius Ceasar existed, because they've both got around the same amount of historical sources. I thought so, but I wasn't entirely sure exactly how well-grounded his existence was in the historical accounts, so I was careful with my words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEVILMURRAY Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 My R.E teacher always said there was no doubt Jesus lived, as said the historical documents are plentiful. Whether he was the Son of God is another matter. I think I'd have a better time respecting the idea of god if he wasn't so specifically described. How was he described? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paj! Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Just everything that is mentioned about him. When it's obvious he has no form/face/voice/whatever. If anything, it's an amorphous, indescribable mass of sparkling energy that exists on the astral plane beyond human imagining. How dare anyone presume to know god? They do so it becomes easy and understandable. I'm not allowed the ease of understanding the universe, why is anyone else allowed that luxury? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Dangerous Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Surely it doesnt matter if Jesus existed or not if the ideas are good. Somebody somewhere wrote it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navarre Posted June 6, 2009 Author Share Posted June 6, 2009 Surely it doesnt matter if Jesus existed or not if the ideas are good. Somebody somewhere wrote it. Exactly. Jesus could be fictional or factual, it makes no difference to the underlying morals of his ministry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paj! Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Why do we have to refer to him for moral guidance? He didn't invent them all. And even if he did, they're all ingrained in society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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