Who Here Actually Owns A Wii?

[Teppo Holmqvist]

My opinion is that it isn't about how simple or physical it is, but how satisfying. Let's take DDR. Sure, you can play it d-pad. But do you really enjoy it? Let's play with legs, and suddenly everything is so much more satisfying. Physically motion and feeling it gives can be great tool for game, when used correctly. When used incorrectly, well, it sucks. It is always about balance.

[mcj metroid]

no it's not.

hmm let's try your arrogant post methods for a change so..

 

yes it is

no it doesn't.

yes it does

 

...and it's been perfected. I certainly don't feel more immersed in a game when a vague waggle of a badly designed tv remote makes my character jump instead of pressing a button.

you serious? You Actually think that sony and microsoft aren't going to jump on the motion sensing train this gen or next?

 

Pressing buttons is never going to last in it's current form, and if you thought the wii was going to have it picture perfect the first time round you are completely wrong. Motion plus and other improved are a right step in the right direction.

These are changed that are needed to make the system evolve.

 

I think it's cute that you are hugging onto to your idea of a "perfected if-it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it controller" but like the switch from 2d to 3d, it's inevitable.......So tough really.

 

Any gamer with any skill or experience shouldn't even notice the controls after about five mins. Lets go to Halo again: I never, ever press the wrong button- to me that's far, far more involving that a bit of faux immersion from a wii remote.

that's true but what do you think a new gamer is going to get used to first? playing a fps on a next gen console first or on a wii? Are they going to get used to Metroid controls or halo first?

 

Most likely the wii and what does that show? It shows you probably needed past experience to get used to it and this is why fps games suck at bringing in new gamers. Dual analogue seems more or more dated the more times I try it.

 

 

 

 

only it's not, is it?

only it is isn't it..

ok I'm actually going to answer to this one... you think a game is more is more realistic because it LOOKS more realistic? There aren't many great examples of realstic games on the wii but the upcoming virtua tennis and grand slam show you that THESE are far more realistic than their next gen counterparts. Why?

Because it makes you feel like you're actually mimicking the movements of the tennis player hence seeming like you're actually playing tennis.

 

There is a BIG difference between more realistic graphics and more realistic gameplay and if you say graphics are more important then you ARE a graphics whore.

umm....so jumping around in a giant mushroom collecting stars as a cartoon plumber is less futile? Just seemed an odd point you made there.

 

......what are you doing on an nintendo forum?

[Daft]

My opinion is that it isn't about how simple or physical it is, but how satisfying. Let's take DDR. Sure, you can play it d-pad. But do you really enjoy it? Let's play with legs, and suddenly everything is so much more satisfying. Physically motion and feeling it gives can be great tool for game, when used correctly. When used incorrectly, well, it sucks. It is always about balance.

 

Except that comparison just doesn't work because that is a dance game. You dance in real life and it reflects the game.

 

In real life you don't pass a football by pointing. Or drive a car by tilting a a device slightly. So why even feign it with some abstract motion?

 

That's why people 'get' WiiSports. Because you do as you do in real life. All the sports in it are pretty mundane. Unlike motor sports or fighting off alien hordes etc...

Edited March 13, 2009 by Daft

[Dan_Dare]

hmm let's try your arrogant post methods for a change so..

 

yes it is

 

yes it does

 

 

 

that's true but what do you think a new gamer is going to get used to first? playing a fps on a next gen console first or on a wii? Are they going to get used to Metroid controls or halo first?

 

.

ok I'm actually going to answer to this one... you think a game is more is more realistic because it LOOKS more realistic? There aren't many great examples of realstic games on the wii but the upcoming virtua tennis and grand slam show you that THESE are far more realistic than their next gen counterparts. Why?

Because it makes you feel like you're actually mimicking the movements of the tennis player hence seeming like you're actually playing tennis.

 

There is a BIG difference between more realistic graphics and more realistic gameplay and if you say graphics are more important then you ARE a graphics whore.

 

 

I never mentioned graphics

my point is that the idea of the wii controller being somehow 'realistic' in any way shape or form is patently absurd. Lets stick to shooters one more time for a good example: I'm playing Farcry 2- now, do you really think that, while sitting in my comfy armchair I'm honestly going to feel more like a mercenary in an African civil war with a wii controller than a 360 pad? Am I bollocks. The only way to develop immersion in any meaningful sense is through better technology. This includes graphics, sound, physics, AI. Hell, even display resolution!

the wii is about as cutting edge as a sledge hammer. Which is fine for it's market, but that market is not progressive gaming. Don't kid yourself.

[Teppo Holmqvist]

Or drive a car by tilting a a device slightly.

 

You know, there is very good reason why Mario Kart Wii clicks with expanded audience and is most popular game of this generation outside Wii Play. And that's motion controls.

 

The wii is about as cutting edge as a sledge hammer. Which is fine for it's market, but that market is not progressive gaming. Don't kid yourself.

 

You know, you are exactly so sharp and subtle as sledge hammer. You have one extreme view, and don't want to even listen other views.

Edited March 13, 2009 by Teppo Holmqvist
Automerged Doublepost

[Dan_Dare]

yeah but I'm right.

[Teppo Holmqvist]

yeah but I'm right.

 

Opinions are like arseholes. Everybody has one, and everyone thinks that only others stink.

[Ashley]

What type of effort? Physical? Mental?

 

I'd argue, successfully, that mental effort is a much more important contribution to any game.

 

Mental? It was in terms of television shows that I came across this theory (i.e. a show is more enjoyable if its on the brink of cancellation whereas a show like American Idol say you know will be back next season and thus you don't quite have that same passionate desire for it) but I think its bastardised for the sake of media and reading more into it now its not so relevant so I'll shut my yap.

 

Oh and it was cognitive dissonance.

[Daft]

You know, there is very good reason why Mario Kart Wii clicks with expanded audience and is most popular game of this generation outside Wii Play. And that's motion controls.

 

Exactly.

 

Mario Kart DS is the best one imo. The console ones have kind of sucked since MK64.

 

Why does the audience even need to be expanded though? It's not benefiting you, or anyone who spends time posting on a games forum.

 

Like I said, Tarkovsky, one of the best directors ever. A lot of people would have difficulty with him. Accessibility does not mean it is good. Neither does popularity. Jesus, just look at the pop charts. lol

[Shino]

The point I was making about graphics is that most next gen game don't are almost identical do they're prequels only with added polygons, if Halo3 looked like Halo1 it would be the same game, God of War's 3 gameplay seems doable on a PS2, and if it weren't for its gorgeous graphics no one would give a shit (i.e. Twilight Princess). Sure some games do take some next gen advantage like LBP and other more physics oriented games, but AI isn't really that different from what it used to be.

 

And that point Daft made about Madworld being possibly better on HD consoles, well, graphically yeah! But the game uses motion sensing to add more immersion to the game and anyone that has played NMH can tell you that finishing combos with a motion is infinitely better than a simple button press. A version of it in the HD the consoles would be a gimped version. Another example will be the Ghost Busters where the Wii version appears to be better than its HD counterpart due to its input method and how that helps the game overall.

[Teppo Holmqvist]

Why does the audience even need to be expanded though? It's not benefiting you, or anyone who spends time posting on a games forum.

 

For several reasons:

 

1) Without new blood, this hobby dies. HD-generation has pretty much failed as excepted. Development costs have quadrupled in three years, but growth outside Wii / DS have been negative. Nearly all of Top-20 publishers are on the red, with three (Midway, THQ, Atlus) facing threat of bankcrupt this year. More than twenty prominent development studios have been closed thanks to failed projects. You can't get funding for risk projects, meaning more money for generic shooters and casualware. When market grows and is profitable, it can fund more risky, "artistic" projects. Everybody wins.

 

2) Public acceptance. Currently we have certain extreme circles proposing far more drastic censorship for videogames. As videogames gain more public acceptance, censorship demands start to look ridiculous. Furthermore, whole market can get respect it so craves. Once again, everybody wins.

 

3) Videogames need to mature up. Currently games are made by adolescent boys for adolescent boys. To truly achieve next level in design, market needs to mature and we must broaden our perspectives.

Edited March 13, 2009 by Teppo Holmqvist

[Tellyn]

I have a feeling certain people were just itching to turn this thread into "Let's discuss how shit the Wii is and how everything would be better if it was on the 360".

[Guest Captain Falcon]

I have a feeling certain people were just itching to turn this thread into "Let's discuss how shit the Wii is and how everything would be better if it was on the 360".

 

It was always going to end up that way... I'm just amazed it took so long.

[Daft]

The point I was making about graphics is that most next gen game don't are almost identical do they're prequels only with added polygons, if Halo3 looked like Halo1 it would be the same game, God of War's 3 gameplay seems doable on a PS2, and if it weren't for its gorgeous graphics no one would give a shit (i.e. Twilight Princess). Sure some games do take some next gen advantage like LBP and other more physics oriented games, but AI isn't really that different from what it used to be.

 

Sorry but that is the biggest load of crap. Have you played Halo 3 and Halo 1? I can't believe any rational being cannot notice the difference. It is vast. You are trying to tell me that a game, from 7 years ago has the same AI as now? Killzone 2 lives on it's AI. It is 100% dynamic. A veritable feature of the game. That is an absolutely absurd statement. I'm shocked you can even think that with a straight face.

 

Seriously, you're not joking?

 

Yeah, God of War's gameplay is doable on the PS2. That's not what they are expanding on though. Why fix what isn't broken? The levels in God of War 3 are absolutely massive and constantly moving. They are totally dynamic. If it wasn't for the power of the PS3 you wouldn't be able to fight on the back of a monster as large as a mountain while he is climbing another somehow vastly bigger mountain while he changes foothold thus flipping the whole level on it's side. It is just lending to epic story telling. The 'gorgeous' graphics aren't something to write of as a little extra. They are complete part of the gaming narrative.

 

And that point Daft made about Madworld being possibly better on HD consoles, well, graphically yeah! But the game uses motion sensing to add more immersion to the game and anyone that has played NMH can tell you that finishing combos with a motion is infinitely better than a simple button press. A version of it in the HD the consoles would be a gimped version. Another example will be the Ghost Busters where the Wii version appears to be better than its HD counterpart due to its input method and how that helps the game overall.

 

I can understand that but as Dan said, immersion through controls has a limit. In the end, games are a visual medium and if you don't have the power to back it up then that isn't ideal.

[Dan_Dare]

I have a feeling certain people were just itching to turn this thread into "Let's discuss how shit the Wii is and how everything would be better if it was on the 360".

 

I'm just discussing why I don't have a wii. Perfectly reasonable.

[Teppo Holmqvist]

I'm just discussing why I don't have a wii. Perfectly reasonable.

 

So you think it is your divine right to come to shit on Wii threads? Holy shit, perhaps I should come to terrorize Other Consoles.

[Daft]

For several reasons:

 

1) Without new blood, this hobby dies. HD-generation has pretty much failed as excepted. Development costs have quadrupled in three years, but growth outside Wii / DS have been negative. Nearly all of Top-20 publishers are on the red, with three (Midway, THQ, Atlus) facing threat of bankcrupt this year. More than twenty prominent development studios have been closed thanks to failed projects. You can't get funding for risk projects, meaning more money for generic shooters and casualware. When market grows and is profitable, it can fund more risky, "artistic" projects. Everybody wins.

 

Projects have closed because of the economic situation and structurally they are trying to copy the movie industry model. It has very little to do with the games. I'd call it Creative Darwinism really. If you can't make good products, you die. Midway suck. THQ, god knows how a company that has made almost a quarter of a billion dollars on GTAIV alone has gone into the read, that is bad management. And last time I checked, the last game I worked on was an Altus game.

 

2) Public acceptance. Currently we have certain extreme circles proposing far more drastic censorship for videogames. As videogames gain more public acceptance, censorship demands start to look ridiculous. Furthermore, whole market can get respect it so craves. Once again, everybody wins.

 

We've only just got the first president who has grown up with videogames, and that was Pong. It'll take time. Why people expect everyone to just click with this relatively new cultural avenue is beyond me.

 

3) Videogames need to mature up. Currently games are made by adolescent boys for adolescent boys. To truly achieve next level in design, market needs to mature and we must broaden our perspectives.

 

Same as above. No miracle console is going to do this.

[Dan_Dare]

What!?

Just because I don't like the wii and I'm telling you why I'm now shitting on the thread? by all means, prove me wrong! Argue!

[Nolan]

 

Projects have closed because of the economic situation and structurally they are trying to copy the movie industry model. It has very little to do with the games. I'd call it Creative Darwinism really. If you can't make good products, you die. Midway suck. THQ, god knows how a company that has made almost a quarter of a billion dollars on GTAIV alone has gone into the read, that is bad management. And last time I checked, the last game I worked on was an Altus game.

 

Midway sucks, Atlus has a niche following so I could see how they may have trouble, small budgets and small userbase.

 

But I really don't see how THQ made money on GTAIV...do you mean Saints Row?

[Dan_Dare]

no, GTA. They published it.

[LazyBoy]

Own a Wii, had it since launch. Thinking of selling it, now that Ninty are putting the prices up I might be able to get a good price as well. Got a 360 last year, love it. Won't bother with why because apparently opinions aren't aloud here.

[mcj metroid]

I never mentioned graphics

my point is that the idea of the wii controller being somehow 'realistic' in any way shape or form is patently absurd. Lets stick to shooters one more time for a good example: I'm playing Farcry 2- now, do you really think that, while sitting in my comfy armchair I'm honestly going to feel more like a mercenary in an African civil war with a wii controller than a 360 pad? Am I bollocks. The only way to develop immersion in any meaningful sense is through better technology. This includes graphics, sound, physics, AI. Hell, even display resolution!

the wii is about as cutting edge as a sledge hammer. Which is fine for it's market, but that market is not progressive gaming. Don't kid yourself.

Oh man you are so old fashioned.. You know we have almost hit a stage where graphics,sound and physics and ai can't get much better? Maybe in about 5 or 6 years we will never see a noticeable difference again.. then what genius?

That is what the wii is trying to do.. Avoid this and offer a new way to play instead and that is motion contols. I understand the wii isn't perfect and the motion controls aren't perfect either

..but let's not forget the first traditional controller as we know it had a d-pad and 2 buttons, It was basic and that's what the the wii is equivilant to on the motion sensing field so far .

 

it really boggles the mind that you actually think a pad with buttons is more immersive than sensing the persons movement.. I mean what the hell are you blind or something.. of course the wii would make you feel more like a mercenary because you're waving a gun like the mercenary is doing on the screen. What you think an analogue stick using your thumb is more realistic for looking around?

 

it also boggles the mind even if you dont agree with the above points. You think motion sensing is going to stick to one market? You think the wii 2 will be the only one that continues the motion sensing..

That's ludicrous,sony and microsoft can't wait to start their own range of these games and rip off the technolgy next generation.

 

This is a good thing of course because we may start to see more cross platform games and more improvments in the technology. Motion sensing is the future.

I don't think i'm kidding myself, Sales of the wii agree with me and normal people can't feel justified buying a new console for better graphics anymore.. what have you got?

[Daft]

But I really don't see how THQ made money on GTAIV...do you mean Saints Row?

 

Yeah, my bad. Saints Row 2 was my favourite game of last year.

 

Amazingly fun.

[Shino]

 

Sorry but that is the biggest load of crap. Have you played Halo 3 and Halo 1? I can't believe any rational being cannot notice the difference. It is vast. You are trying to tell me that a game, from 7 years ago has the same AI as now? Killzone 2 lives on it's AI. It is 100% dynamic. A veritable feature of the game. That is an absolutely absurd statement. I'm shocked you can even think that with a straight face.

 

Seriously, you're not joking?

 

Maybe its because I've played FPS's on PC all my life and since it was a gradual process I never noticed a difference. But the only time I felt slightly challenged by enemy "intelligence" was in F.E.A.R.. Don't know about Killzone 2, but from what I've read and heard they don't offer much of a challenge either.

 

But anyway, people aren't playing Halo3 for its A.I., they're playing it online, and that to me looks little more than Quake3.

[Mundi]

Oh man you are so old fashioned.. You know we have almost hit a stage where graphics,sound and physics and ai can't get much better? Maybe in about 5 or 6 years we will never see a noticeable difference again.. then what genius?

 

No, we are not reaching the ending point of all that.

The fact that people are still being amazed over how well the AI can hide behind walls says a lot.

 

 

But to stay on topic, I was gonna get a Wii on launch but because it was a test week I had to do delay that (much to my dismay) and when they finally got another shipment (in effing January) I was working that night so I could not get it.

When it was nearing March and no word on another shipment I just said fuck it and bought an xbox360 on impulse.

Every know and then I get the urge to buy a Wii but due to financial reasons I can´t