Money grows on Wiis, not trees...Now what?

[tapedeck]

Fantastic isn't it?

 

The company you've stood loyal to for many years and gained hundreds of hours of enjoyment from are on top of their business game. The little machine/company that can has finally pushed over the big boys from the past and won. Wow. It feels great on the surface. Now Nintendo can even admit their past mistakes.

 

I couldn't help but get that impression when mulling over Miyamoto's comments on his apparent 'depression' felt during the GC era. Sure, there were pangs of artistic resentment nestled subtly in his comments. But one of my thoughts was that, arguably (and presumably) Miyamoto got his own way via Wind Waker's design choice/Mario's toy water gun and the love that was the twee Pikmin. Maybe those were choices that sowed a seed for the GC's perception? (Or maybe it was the fact it looked like a Playmobil record player.)

 

I digress. The past is in the past. I just feel that Nintendo are being a tad too "look at us, we're human!" to mark(et) themselves as a changed company.

 

Arguably Nintendo haven't changed at all. They are still stubborn. Maybe their marketing departments have changed (or woke up) but that's all.

The market is obviously different now. Gamers have primarily changed due to the nature of the consoles available to them. Online powerhouses versus twee motion-led but a jack-of-all-trades (master of none) family console. It's a fascinating divide in my opinion and one which will be far more interesting to lok back on than, say, the Mega Drive/SNES/NES/Master System/PS2/X-Box/GC eras.

 

We all know Nintendo have forced this market in a new direction as they are such a big player with big games and big concepts.

Yet, after that first year we never saw the promise from 3rd parties to deliver to traditional gamers on Wii. Who's fault is that? Nintendo's? I don't think so. I feel the Wii is the ultimate 'balanced' console.

 

Purely because developers got lazier than we've ever seen before (with only the PS1 days coming close) Wii has changed a lot of things. Using Wii as a stop gap to feed their HD (big bucks but little ideas) endeavours is just the icing on a sickening cake to long-term Nintendo gamers. I feel this generation could be pivotal to many companies as gamers can become resentful of companies. (Even if they are so fickle as to run into their arms on other consoles to get their fixes.) Look at how EA's perception has changed amongst Nintendo fans as a good fact. It will be interesting to see how companies will fare in the long run by NOT releasing certain titles on Wii. Will it even matter? Perhaps I'm being too personal and holistic, either way money doesn't grow on trees. It grows on wiis.

 

So yeah, in context:

 

This week we saw Capcom release another wiimake with dumbed down graphics/gameplay in Dead Rising. Reaction? Public avoidance.

This week we saw Capcom 'announce' a new Resident Evil shooter. Reaction? Public slating.

Next week we see a new Wii title released that isn't colour encompassing and features mature concepts and what people would actually describe as a traditional "game". Reaction..Madworld will sell by the boat load.

 

 

So what do you want now? What titles would make you reinvest, reinvigorate and re-imagine Nintendo as the company you once stood by and adored even when those around you slammed them for not embracing the strict 'mature-content led' market circa 1997-2007? (A market we are still, in parts drenched in.)

Maybe it's too late? Have companies now lost the Wii plot and forged their way onto the HD consoles purely because of the high-end technologies available to them? And if so, will this mean that gaming will never reach a peak (or the uncanny valley) as, there will always be something bigger or better to create behind the scenes?

If so, how does this affect Nintendo and will they now ALWAYS be the company a technological generation behind?

 

 

Thoughts as ever...

Edited March 12, 2009 by tapedeck

[Guest Captain Falcon]

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but I think some of your points about Nintendo and the market seem a touch contradictory - particularly when you are taking about perceived and real changes.

 

If Nintendo haven't changed, then how did the market change, and why would we have lost our faith in them which we carried for all these years?

 

The market didn't suddenly change on it's own only for Nintendo to take notice and then give chase after it whilst MS and Sony were looking the other way.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Captain Falcon

[Ren of Heavens]

This generation really is special. Wii has become an AND console among core gamers and big developers. If this was a normal generation, market share alone would have made the console the base of third party developers releasing their biggest and best efforts first and foremost on Wii.

 

Ubisoft, Capcom, Namco, Konami, Activision, Sega, EA, Rockstar, Square-Enix, 2K Games etc. would have all their best developers working on multi-million dollar projects for Wii. And considering Wii has sold around 50 million, many of them would be made exclusive for Wii as well.

 

I mean, this is why we wanted Wii to become number one. Not so Nintendo could become one of the richest companies in the world, but because of high-quality third party support.

[darkjak]

The gaming audience has aged so to speak. Statistics say that the standard age for a gamer rises by about a year every year. Back then, most kids were Fjortis, IE fourteen year olds. I remember opening Nintendo Official Magazine when they interviewed a bunch of kids, and one quite openly stated "I like them wit blood and goore".

Kids of that age think that everything forbidden is cool, so they seek out games with blood, violence, nudity, swearing and so on. If it didn't have blood, swearing or titties, it was for kiddies.

 

I don't consider the N64 kiddie at all. It was the no 1 console for first person shooters back in the day, with Goldeneye, Perfect Dark, Turok, Doom, Quake, Duke Nukem, Rainbow Six and a shiteload more. Also I remember that for a long time, the most common type of game being released for the format was wrestling games. Nintendo released extreme sports games such as Excitebike and 1080, which whupped the competitions arse, and because the extreme lack of racers, Nintendo made sure we'd get a Ridge Racer game. Rumours even suggested that Nintendo had hired Rare to beat the only good Sony game out at the time: Gran Turismo.

 

During the GC days it wasn't really bad either. We got a bucketload of RE titles, we got Eternal Darkness, MGS, Rogue Leader and Soul Calibur. Nintendo even tried to buy Dice to get Battlefield 1942 exclusively. Nintendo made sure we got Geist, they gave us Metroid. The actual kiddie debate didn't start until Wind Waker got shown.

 

The problem today is that Nintendo are doing very little. Reggie supposedly talked to Rockstar about getting us GTA, but apparently failed missarably.

[darksnowman]

During the GC days it wasn't really bad either. We got a bucketload of RE titles, we got Eternal Darkness, MGS, Rogue Leader and Soul Calibur. Nintendo even tried to buy Dice to get Battlefield 1942 exclusively. Nintendo made sure we got Geist, they gave us Metroid. The actual kiddie debate didn't start until Wind Waker got shown.

 

Wind Waker came out fairly early into the Cubes life, dude. Didn't the kiddy debate begin when Sega popped up way back when and tried to out-cool Nintendo? The N64 was defo dubbed as being a kiddy machine.

[jammy2211]

I think it's hard to criticize third parties alot for their efforts on the Wii, in nearly all cases (As far as western devs go anyway) the majority of their games are on the Wii, and most of them are clearly aimed at established markets with proven sales and plenty of room for success.

 

It does still surprise me that less games 'we' would like to see are being made for the console, but I guess third parties just don't think the audience is there, or don't want to think it's their. I think a big problem is the core people behind the best games in the world, the developers, look down on the Wii more then any EA executive or Capcom CEO.

 

I'd like to see companies just make games that take advantage of the Wii... rather then something which I can get the same experience, but better, on my PS3. I'd rather see games that we don't get anywhere else, stuff like Mad World and...er... That Masarume (sp?) game. That'll come from the east though me thinks.

[mcj metroid]

With third parties I really do think most of them assumed that the wii was a gimmick, it had no chance etc.

They all had their long term plans to release their next titles on the hd consoles and that was the end of the story.

 

I mean after about a year of devolping an expensive game like resident evil 5 do you think capcom is suddenly going to release all their big titles on the wii? Let's face it.. resident evil 5 was probably put right into development right after 4 and before nintendo released anything about the wii. Konami are pretty much in the same boat with metal gear solid 4.

 

why would they support the wii causing it to outsell the other systems when their biggest title is on another system.. they are going to support THAT system while making a cheap buck on the side.

 

Everyone was caught off guard by wii it seems.I think even nintendo were. They DID release twilight princess on both wii and gamecube JUST in case like.

[Emasher]

Like I've said many times before. There are always droughts in every generation. 2008 was one of them, there will be more AAA games coming out for the Wii. Any developer that realized the Wii had won after it had come out, wouldn't be getting anything all that major out until this year probably.

 

Oh, and the Wii doesn't grow money, it prints it

 

It does still surprise me that less games 'we' would like to see are being made for the console, but I guess third parties just don't think the audience is there, or don't want to think it's their. I think a big problem is the core people behind the best games in the world, the developers, look down on the Wii more then any EA executive or Capcom CEO.

 

I've heard quite a few stories about the developers wanting to make decent hardcore Wii games, but then the publisher said "Its just the Wii, give them a waggle fest." These CEOs are the ones with the most power.

Edited March 12, 2009 by Emasher
Automerged Doublepost

[jammy2211]

I've heard quite a few stories about the developers wanting to make decent hardcore Wii games, but then the publisher said "Its just the Wii, give them a waggle fest." These CEOs are the ones with the most power.

 

It depends on which side of developement you go to I guess, teams like Epic, Bethesda, Infinity Ward, Obsidian etc don't want to develope for the Wii. They've always been tech-lead, so they'll develope for the console with the best tech (Graphically speaking, of course).

 

Tech-lead studio's tend to make the best of the games we want though, I guess, hence why the Wii is starved of any real support from western third parties.

 

It's a brighter pictre in Japan though, albeit eastern developement is suffering (?) from westernification. Still, I think the Wii's best third party games will come from all the random studio's over there.

[Jamba]

It depends on which side of developement you go to I guess, teams like Epic, Bethesda, Infinity Ward, Obsidian etc don't want to develope for the Wii. They've always been tech-lead, so they'll develope for the console with the best tech (Graphically speaking, of course).

 

Tech-lead studio's tend to make the best of the games we want though, I guess, hence why the Wii is starved of any real support from western third parties.

 

It's a brighter pictre in Japan though, albeit eastern developement is suffering (?) from westernification. Still, I think the Wii's best third party games will come from all the random studio's over there.

 

Smartest thing i've heard on the gaming side of the forum in ages

 

I don't think that the publishers understand the Wii's audience well enough yet to confidently make any bold statements (you know... bar Sega of course )

 

We are in a golden age of tech and graphics right now but design is the real winner for the Wii. Unfortunately adventures in design are much higher risk as they give management a headache due to usually not being in a currently defined genre. It's hard to tell how a market will react to a new game design especially when there are tried and tested types out there.

 

Personally, I would like to see big publishers creating experimental titles for WiiWare with the thought of expanding the design up to a fully fledged game based on the success of what you could see as a trial run.

[jammy2211]

Smartest thing i've heard on the gaming side of the forum in ages

 

I don't think that the publishers understand the Wii's audience well enough yet to confidently make any bold statements (you know... bar Sega of course )

 

We are in a golden age of tech and graphics right now but design is the real winner for the Wii. Unfortunately adventures in design are much higher risk as they give management a headache due to usually not being in a currently defined genre. It's hard to tell how a market will react to a new game design especially when there are tried and tested types out there.

 

Personally, I would like to see big publishers creating experimental titles for WiiWare with the thought of expanding the design up to a fully fledged game based on the success of what you could see as a trial run.

 

I wouldn't say SEGA understand it yet, they know that Sonic will sell by the bucketload no matter how terrible the game is, thats about it. They're the only major publisher to really be trying gamer games on the console, they are getting strong-ish sales but I still find them somewhat lack-lustre considering the pretty much have the whole market to themselves.

 

Western publishers try to hard to make everything a demographic, and applying that philosphy to the Wii just doesn't seem to work, which is why Nintendo are striking such a goldmine on the console with their everyone-is-included approach. Which again makes me think the easter devs will be the best to approach the Wii.

 

I don't think WiiWare is really viable for anything like that, you can't market a product on that scale to give it a fair 'testrun' and it will only reach the people who use WiiWare. I think PSN and XBLA are leaps and bounds ahead for that sort of approach, mainly due to the nature of their userbase though (And being less technologically restrictive).

[Emasher]

I think they need to give out more free stuff one the Wii shop channel. Perhaps if they gave away a few of the smaller NES games, and made a few smaller Wii Ware games and gave them away for free, It might attract more people to the channel, and they might buy something a little bigger. Then they need a storage solution that a technophobe can understand how to use, and market the channel just a bit. Perhaps eventually they could even give out Wii Demos and stuff. The VC demos shouldn't have just been limited to brawl either, you should have been able to get quick little VC demos off the shop channel too.

 

The shop channel has so much more potential.

[Patch]

So what do you want now? What titles would make you reinvest, reinvigorate and re-imagine Nintendo as the company you once stood by and adored even when those around you slammed them for not embracing the strict 'mature-content led' market circa 1997-2007? (A market we are still, in parts drenched in.)

 

I would like to see Nintendo appear to be reinvesting their now-vast fortune into more first-party games. They could probably afford to start up a new second-party company every month at the moment!

 

I would also like to see them take an active role in securing decent third party titles. Maybe they already do this quite a bit, but it's not that apparent.

[darksnowman]

I would like to see Nintendo appear to be reinvesting their now-vast fortune into more first-party games.

 

Its hard to know what they are up to these days isn't it? This new mantra of unveiling a game shortly before its gonna be on shelves (like Excitebots recently) leaves us in the dark.

[Grazza]

I'm not sure I understand the topic, but what would I like to see? I'd like to see Nintendo establish more studios, so that there's always a studio working on certain series. For example, those members of staff who were passionate about and understood "Celda" could form the Wind Waker Studio, which would obviously be to continue the Wind Waker universe.

 

Then there could be the standard Zelda Team, which would focus on the "Link as a badass" games. On top of that, there could be a Handheld Zelda Studio, which would ideally be as much like Flagship as possible. They were really on the right lines with Four Swords Adventure (which I realise is not a handheld game). Handheld Zeldas should look like Link to the Past, not Wind Waker, but with more bells & whistles.

 

From 3rd-parties, well, honestly...? I have no desire for ports this gen (purely because of the difference in power). That leaves exclusives like Mad World, Monster Hunter 3 and Dragon Quest X. The problem with these is why would we really want them on the Wii instead of the other machines? Even if they didn't stay as exclusives, the Wii would have been the lead format. If ported to PS3/Xbox 360, the most the developers could do is upscale the graphics, which is not enough. Too many games like this and Nintendo will have effectively kept certain games back a generation.

 

So, which games should be designed for Wii? Ones that genuinely need the various control options. From my point of view, the one really appealing 3rd-party Wii exclusive is Zack & Wiki, for the aforementioned reasons.

 

I also have a slight problem with the level of violence and/or immoral/amoral content in 3rd-party exclusives, like Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles, House of the Dead: Overkill, Mad World, No More Heroes etc, which are all violent, some more gratuitous than others.

 

I have no problem with people playing these games, but I think the publishers overreact to the idea that the Wii needs "hardcore" games and that "hardcore = violence". Then you get sites like IGN saying these games need to sell to prove "hardcore" games can succeed on Wii. Well, what about the people who don't like excessive violence and gore? I can honestly say I love the graphic style of Mad World and No More Heroes, and I would see them as reasons to buy a Wii if they were a bit more tasteful.

 

Maybe it's just me, but surely Nintendo fans would be more receptive to exclusives based on the Nintendo games they love, like Zelda and Metroid? With MotionPlus on its way, this is the ideal time to try and prove they can do Zelda better than Nintendo!

[Patch]

Its hard to know what they are up to these days isn't it? This new mantra of unveiling a game shortly before its gonna be on shelves (like Excitebots recently) leaves us in the dark.

 

Perhaps the development time is genuinely short, affirming their belief that 'games are taking too long to develop'. The anticipation isn't as high this way, but at least we don't have to wait for ages. That being said, if that's the case, we should be seeing tons of games from Nintendo.

 

What are they doing with all that dosh then?

[The Lillster]

Wasn't there an announcment not too long back about sakurai getting his own studio, or something to that degree?

 

Ok, i've found the story...

 

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/smash-bros-director-heads-up-new-studio

 

Smash Bros. director heads up new studio

Nintendo announced today the formation of new studio run by Smash Bros. Brawl director Masahiro Sakurai, entitled Project Sora.

 

The Tokyo-based studio was officially formed on January 22 and has capital of JPY 200 million (USD 2.1 million), of which Nintendo provided 72 per cent, to employ a staff of 30 to work on a new title, according to Andriasang.

 

"The thoughts of game designer Masahiro Sakurai and Nintendo have become one, and a new project has started," reads the new studio's site. "In order to expand what can be offered to the world through games, we will have Nintendo's full cooperation and make something that Nintendo could not do on its own."

 

The upcoming title was described by Nintendo president and CEO Satoru Iwata as "a new experiment, both for Mr. Sakurai and for Nintendo".

 

Sakurai added: "We've started a special project. We're not sure how it will sell or if it will be accepted. Our goal is not just to make a single game. We can promise that you'll be able to experience something different."

Edited March 14, 2009 by The Lillster

[darkjak]

As I've stated before: new studios.

 

Maybe one interrested in doing things Nintendo haven't really been doing before. A studio with an in your face attitude that develops beat em ups, shoot em ups, racers etc.

 

Maybe another studio that does nothing but to reinvent old franchises, like Starfox, Excitebike, Pilotwings and others.

 

And yet another one specialising in making Nintendo adaptations of other studios franchises, as NTSC did with Ridge Racer and Silicon Nights did with MGS.

 

And then finally a studio that develops quirky, new, inventive games focused on the core.

[Emasher]

They are building that new R&D facility, its possible they'll have a few new teams in there.

[Grazza]

Its hard to know what they are up to these days isn't it? This new mantra of unveiling a game shortly before its gonna be on shelves (like Excitebots recently) leaves us in the dark.

 

I would like to see them drop this mantra, as I don't think people mind long waits, as long as it doesn't cross over onto another system. I find it very enjoyable to follow a big game's development.

[Sheikah]

Fantastic isn't it?

 

The company you've stood loyal to for many years and gained hundreds of hours of enjoyment from are on top of their business game. The little machine/company that can has finally pushed over the big boys from the past and won. Wow. It feels great on the surface. Now Nintendo can even admit their past mistakes.

Yes but to do so the changes they have made are ones that appeal to a bigger audience, and less so to gamers like us. I preferred Nintendo games back in their day compared to right now.

[killer kirby]

I would like to see them drop this mantra, as I don't think people mind long waits, as long as it doesn't cross over onto another system. I find it very enjoyable to follow a big game's development.

 

you may say that, but seriously, sometimes question that about some people saying this.

 

Does anyone remember when Zelda TP was first shown? remember how every time they delayed the game, more and more curses were aimed at nintendo, and then when it finally came out, a lot of people said it wasn't good, or, it didn't live up to expectations.

 

A gem at the moment to look at is none other then Final Fantasy XIII, remember when that was announced? and it looks like it still won't be out for another year, which is...well a joke I really think that once it hits the shelves people will be dissapointed as it didn't live up to what they thought it was going to be like

 

You may dissagree with what I am saying, but I think the bottom line is is that Nintendo may think people will be more happy with a game when they have only known about for a month or two rather then a year or two, look at Excitebots, see how people are excited about that game and now know that it's coming out very soon, rather then waiting another year when people pray that the release date for the game gets announced.

[Fierce_LiNk]

you may say that, but seriously, sometimes question that about some people saying this.

 

Does anyone remember when Zelda TP was first shown? remember how every time they delayed the game, more and more curses were aimed at nintendo, and then when it finally came out, a lot of people said it wasn't good, or, it didn't live up to expectations.

 

A gem at the moment to look at is none other then Final Fantasy XIII, remember when that was announced? and it looks like it still won't be out for another year, which is...well a joke.

 

You may dissagree with what I am saying, but I think the bottom line is is that Nintendo may think people will be more happy with a game when they have only known about for a month or two rather then a year or two, look at Excitebots, see how people are excited about that game and now know that it's coming out very soon, rather then waiting another year when people pray that the release date for the game gets announced.

 

I totally agree with what you are saying. Maybe it's good to have a mixture, with things both long term and short term. Excitebots was totally unexpected, but I think it makes for a nice surprise. What we don't want is something like...Sadness, where we're not sure if it even exists, or what has been done so far.

 

For me, I'd like to see Nintendo just do...more. Use the money to fund more games, more new IPs, create new studios, just to broaden things. So far, with this generation, we've seen some great games, but there is so much, much more potential there to do more.

 

So, that's what I want. I want that creativity and originality that we have come to love from Nintendo.

[Teppo Holmqvist]

You may dissagree with what I am saying, but I think the bottom line is is that Nintendo may think people will be more happy with a game when they have only known about for a month or two rather then a year or two.

 

That is exactly how Iwata thinks, and he has stated so multiple times.

[Fierce_LiNk]

That is exactly how Iwata thinks, and he has stated so multiple times.

 

If that is honestly the case, then it would make sense why things have been very quiet on the Wii News Front. Normally, at least with the big games, you hear about them sometimes one or two years before release. Which, I think, is a bit too soon anyway.