Virtual Morality

[Daft]

http://agamingcorner.blogspot.com/2008/12/virtual-morality.html

 

I wrote this article and wanted to hear everyone's thoughts on the matter...also I though I'd sell myself a bit, but then everyone does that every hour of their life. (A BILLION points if you can get that reference.)

 

As technology advances and drags us into different spheres of reality we must re-examine the choices we make as virtual actors. Where does morality stand in these brave new worlds?

 

Does morality have a place in a virtual world?

 

I hope everyone likes the article.

[nightwolf]

Bah, sounds like the presentation I could have done on real lives with virtual worlds. I'll read it and see how it seems ^_^.

 

edit: it's good and it does raise the question of when is too far, too far? I like it. Second life is always a good example to use! I may nick grand theft auto off you though.

[Jonnas]

Your article was nice. Although it became "morality in general" in the end.

 

I never know what to say about morality, though. We do what we think is right. And that includes trying to protect other people. If we have an impulse that leads to someone suffering, we try to control it so it ends up not hurting anyone.

 

As for "virtual morality":

 

1.Virtual rape is not accepted for the same reason rape is rarely shown in movies. It's disturbing when shown in an explicit way.

 

2.Virtual murder is not as bad as in real life. In a virtual world, you're eliminating obstacles, or stopping models from moving. And more often than not, they'll show up again, never truly dying.

Murder in Second Life could be a different story, though, as it would resemble death in real life more (if the player could never log on again, for example), but it would never be in the same league as real-life murder.

 

3.Virtual pedophillia is in the same league as child hentai, probably. It's not hurting children, it's just providing pedophiles with non-harmful porn.

[Ashley]

Interesting and well written article. But the idea rings a bell, sure I've read about it before. Have you shown me that adbusters article in the past?

[nightwolf]

3.Virtual pedophillia is in the same league as child hentai, probably. It's not hurting children, it's just providing pedophiles with non-harmful porn.

 

But if child porn is illegal on the internet, why is it any different for a virtual world? If anything it's even worse because of the balant human interaction placed within worlds.

[Daft]

1.Virtual rape is not accepted for the same reason rape is rarely shown in movies. It's disturbing when shown in an explicit way.

 

2.Virtual murder is not as bad as in real life. In a virtual world, you're eliminating obstacles, or stopping models from moving. And more often than not, they'll show up again, never truly dying.

Murder in Second Life could be a different story, though, as it would resemble death in real life more (if the player could never log on again, for example), but it would never be in the same league as real-life murder.

 

Isn't murder disturbing when shown explicitly? And if not why isn't it? Obviously it would be hard to argue one act being more heinous than the other but if virtual murder is okay why can't the player chose to rape another character. As you said in your second point they'd more often than not show up again and they won't be emotionally or physically damaged.

 

Personally I haven't decided either way what is right so I'm not criticising. You bring up some interesting points.

 

Interesting and well written article. But the idea rings a bell, sure I've read about it before. Have you shown me that adbusters article in the past?

 

Don't know. It's in the newest issue.

[Jonnas]

But if child porn is illegal on the internet, why is it any different for a virtual world? If anything it's even worse because of the balant human interaction placed within worlds.

 

Yes, it's sick, disturbing, and all that...but it's still better than real child porn, or actually having sex with a child in the real world.

 

Pedophillia is just wrong, and I wish it didn't exist...But it does, and letting those people fulfill their fantasies in a fantasy world is probably the best option there is.

It doesn't make it any less sick, though.

 

Isn't murder disturbing when shown explicitly? And if not why isn't it? Obviously it would be hard to argue one act being more heinous than the other but if virtual murder is okay why can't the player chose to rape another character. As you said in your second point they'd more often than not show up again and they won't be emotionally or physically damaged.

 

Personally I haven't decided either way what is right so I'm not criticising. You bring up some interesting points.

 

Merely killing someone with a gun shot (read: having them die quickly) is not as disturbing as watching someone in pain, screaming for prolonged periods of time. Hence why torturing and extreme suffering aren't that commonly depicted in cinema and/or TV series, either.

[nightwolf]

Yes, it's sick, disturbing, and all that...but it's still better than real child porn, or actually having sex with a child in the real world.

 

Pedophillia is just wrong, and I wish it didn't exist...But it does, and letting those people fulfill their fantasies in a fantasy world is probably the best option there is.

It doesn't make it any less sick, though.

 

 

 

I suppose thats a good way to look at it, but to me it seems like you may as well stick drug addicts on there and give them pretend crack. It'll never be as good as the real thing and won't stop them from doing it.

 

Not only that but it stops everyone else from enjoying the virtual world, just because it's realistic doesn't mean it needs to be that realistic, christ knows alot of people play these things to get out of the real world.

[Cube]

Pedophillia is just wrong

 

No it isn't.

 

In a way it's no different than people who are gay.

 

However people who act on paedophilia will be involving someone who is too young to understand what they are doing and that is where it is wrong.

 

Virtual pornography (i.e. stuff done by an artist) doesn't involve anyone who is too young to understand and so isn't really wrong, especially if it removes any tension from people who might have acted on it if they had no way to relieve it.

[Slaggis]

No it isn't.

 

In a way it's no different than people who are gay.

 

I would get pissed off, but I know you're trying to make a point. Explain. (Because hearing Pedo and Gay in the same sentence, really isn't something I enjoy hearing).

[Aimless]

Isn't murder disturbing when shown explicitly? And if not why isn't it? Obviously it would be hard to argue one act being more heinous than the other but if virtual murder is okay why can't the player chose to rape another character. As you said in your second point they'd more often than not show up again and they won't be emotionally or physically damaged.

I think the major difference is that you can't have slapstick rape.

 

I must have 'murdered' over 100,000 people across all the games I've played, but I can't think of a single one that has actually come close to living up to that term: they are not people, just geometry and textures. In fact the only game that's made me feel any sense of guilt is Shadow of the Colossus, as the Collosi were largely minding their own business until I came along to attack their weakpoints for massive damage.

 

To give some context, I've only ever punched a single person in my life, and that was my brother. I let flies out of the window, I try to avoid stepping on ants; I would not class myself as a violent person. Why anyone would want to watch tortue-porn like Hostel is beyond me, but by-and-large virtual violence is either ridiculous, hilarious, or inconsequential, so it doesn't affect me. (Although I will say that CoD5 sounds rather grim to me, which is partly why I haven't so much as rented it.)

 

I would get pissed off, but I know you're trying to make a point. Explain. (Because hearing Pedo and Gay in the same sentence, really isn't something I enjoy hearing).

It's a sexual preference with a stigma against it. Obviously there's a lot more reason to persecute paedophiles as it takes advantage of innocents, but broadly speaking it is a prejudice born of society; ancient Greece didn't have such a problem with it.

 

I'm not advocating paedophilia — and neither is Cube, I'm sure — but we think of it as wrong because that is what we're told. Much like some people are brought up thinking homosexuality is wrong, often giving rise to an intolerant idiot 20 years down the line.

[Cube]

I would get pissed off, but I know you're trying to make a point. Explain. (Because hearing Pedo and Gay in the same sentence, really isn't something I enjoy hearing).

 

I'm just pointing out that people have attractions that aren't simply geared towards someone they can make a baby with. It's nothing wrong as nobody can really help it. It's just how they are.

 

I don't mean to cause any offence and I don't disagree with same-sex relationships in any way.

[Jonnas]

I suppose thats a good way to look at it, but to me it seems like you may as well stick drug addicts on there and give them pretend crack. It'll never be as good as the real thing and won't stop them from doing it.

 

Drug addicts are a different thing. They need drugs to live, and have reached a point where they don't enjoy drugs at all.

But child porn (the kind that doesn't hurt real children) will certainly satisfy a number of individuals, and prevent them from taking action. Not all pedophiles will be satisfied by this, sure, but it's better than nothing.

 

Not only that but it stops everyone else from enjoying the virtual world, just because it's realistic doesn't mean it needs to be that realistic, christ knows alot of people play these things to get out of the real world.

 

I thought they did those things in private. How can it affect other players if it is private?

 

No it isn't.

 

In a way it's no different than people who are gay.

 

However people who act on paedophilia will be involving someone who is too young to understand what they are doing and that is where it is wrong.

 

Virtual pornography (i.e. stuff done by an artist) doesn't involve anyone who is too young to understand and so isn't really wrong, especially if it removes any tension from people who might have acted on it if they had no way to relieve it.

 

I am aware of all that.

 

The reason I said pedophilia is wrong, it's because it is a preference that cannot be practiced in a safe, healthy way. It is...unnatural in many ways.

 

I am actually sorry for pedophiles. They didn't choose to be like that, and such a preference is only going to bring them problems.

I can't possibly forgive those who act upon their desires, though.

[nightwolf]

Drug addicts are a different thing. They need drugs to live, and have reached a point where they don't enjoy drugs at all.

But child porn (the kind that doesn't hurt real children) will certainly satisfy a number of individuals, and prevent them from taking action. Not all pedophiles will be satisfied by this, sure, but it's better than nothing.

 

 

 

I thought they did those things in private. How can it affect other players if it is private?

 

 

 

 

Drugs and pedophillia are both harmful to others, there's always a link in the chain with each, unless all your family has died and you grow it yourself..

[Daft]

Not only that but it stops everyone else from enjoying the virtual world, just because it's realistic doesn't mean it needs to be that realistic, christ knows alot of people play these things to get out of the real world.

 

Sounds like you are advocating a dictatorship.

 

In virtual worlds offences that are't tied to the real world crimes have no context for punishment. One way of looking at it is freedom is the problem.

 

I think the major difference is that you can't have slapstick rape.

 

I must have 'murdered' over 100,000 people across all the games I've played, but I can't think of a single one that has actually come close to living up to that term: they are not people, just geometry and textures.

 

But the reasons that you give for justifying virtual murder can easily be applied to virtual rape.

[nightwolf]

Sounds like you are advocating a dictatorship.

 

In virtual worlds offences that are't tied to the real world crimes have no context for punishment. One way of looking at it is freedom is the problem.

 

 

haha. I suppose thats true and thats where murdering someone comes in, but as stated before there's a difference between raping somebody in a virtual world than shooting somebody in a game.

[Daft]

haha. I suppose thats true and thats where murdering someone comes in, but as stated before there's a difference between raping somebody in a virtual world than shooting somebody in a game.

 

But what is the difference? In both cases no real person gets hurt.

 

I'm playing Devil's advocate here.

 

---

 

Good timing all this as something has come up in relation to WOW in regards to torture:

 

http://kotaku.com/5098888/mud-designer-unhappy-about-wow-torture-quest

 

http://kotaku.com/5105651/wow-torture-update-+-bartle-responds-to-comments-trolls-and-criticism

 

Some of it is quite funny.

 

- I know WoW is not real life. I know the Geneva Convention doesn't apply there. No real-life laws apply there. Blizzard could put a quest to rape characters in there: real life anti-rape laws wouldn't apply. Nevertheless, a lot of people would be very disturbed by such a quest. Likewise, not everyone is OK with torture. This is the case in real life, too: yes, killing is worse than torture, but that doesn't mean that if you kill people then torture is fine. Evidence: the aforesaid Geneva Convention.

 

- When I signed up to play WoW I knew it had fireballs, so I expected killing. I knew it had rogues, so I expected thieving. I had to wait until the second expansion to find out it had gratuitous torture. This does not fall within the parameters of what I was expecting. It's as if you were reading the new book 8 of the Harry Potter series and Harry turns to drugs and uses his magic powers for sport to blind people. JKR can put that kind of stuff in her books if she likes, freedom of speech being what it is and all, but it's shattered your expectations. I wasn't expecting consequence-free torture quests in WoW. Getting one was a shock.

 

- Strangely, I had noticed WoW was "just a game". For the many players who seem to think that this means anything goes, I guess you're really hoping Blizzard will be putting in some child sex quests in the next expansion. After all, no children are being hurt, it's just pixels on a screen, and if you get XP then why not?

[nightwolf]

But what is the difference? In both cases no real person gets hurt.

 

I'm playing Devil's advocate here.

 

 

I did notice! I'm not entirely sure, for some reason murdering somebody online is alot easier to tackle than rape, maybe because it's been drilled into our systems that one is ok and one isn't.

 

Ideally you could argue that really there shouldn't be allowed to murder people in games or virtual worlds.

 

It annoys me that world of warcraft is seen as ''just a game'' because it isn't; its a virtual world, games are different. (don't ask me for full details I'm doing an essay on it currently). World of warcraft is a tiny bit more than just logging on, killing a character and logging off. Just as it's different to mutliplayer online gaming I suppose.

 

So it doesn't surprise me on some of those quotes, I agree with some of it, what do you define as ok, I mean there's no real limit to who plays wow, kids as young as 12 are playing it, do they really understand when they see torture..

 

/stops before she hits violence effecting kids speech.

[Emasher]

Good article.

 

I don't see anything wrong with violence in video games. As long as children under 12 don't play super violent games. I hate people who go around saying violent games make people violent. Other things like bullying are what cause this, you have to have something seriously wrong with you already to be affected that much by a game, and people who do have these problems should know about them and chose not to play these games because of it.

 

I find it odd why virtual rape is considered taboo when virtual murder isn't though. Murder is worse than rape. Rape is only taboo because our society sees sex as taboo for some reason.

 

I don't think there should be any boundaries in virtual worlds, as long as you don't have something specifically designed to be offensive to other people. For instance, virtual murder or rape aren't supposed to be offensive to anyone, but if a game was actually racist (not about racism but actually racist itself) that would be crossing the line.

[nightwolf]

How can you say rape is ok but racism isn't? Whats to say somebody says something nasty to somebody black and gets kicked off, but then somebody else goes and rapes another character...whats to say they don't feel the exact same violation the black person felt?

[Aimless]

But the reasons that you give for justifying virtual murder can easily be applied to virtual rape.

As I said, you don't get slapstick rape.

 

Violence — both virtual and real — is often entertaining due to its absurdity or abstract nature. Hell, just look at the Darwin Awards: it's a book that catalogues a lot of people dying in idiotic circumstances, and we all have a good laugh about it. I think that people justify the entertainment value of violence through a sense of 'justice': the people were stupid and deserved to get hurt, or they were the bad guys, etcetera. Innocent people being hurt or killed is much harder for anyone to laugh at.

 

Despite what some people on the internet seem to think, rape is never funny. There is always a victim. It isn't ever 'deserved'. So whilst laughing at death is perhaps in bad taste, it's far more easily excused a subject of entertainment as opposed to sex crimes.

[Emasher]

Because Racism actually deliberately offends someone.

Rape (while it may still offend some people) isn't directly trying to offend someone.

 

With your logic, someone should get kicked off an MMORPG because they killed another player.

 

Edit:

 

Also, if you feel so emotionally attached to a game character that you would be offended if it got rapped to the same degree that someone who had been the victim of racism would feel, you're playing too much of that game and probably should take a break.

[Jonnas]

@Murder/rape differences: I already gave my thoughts on this. Gaming "murder" is similar to shooting targets. Rape would have to be more explicit than that (also a reason as to why explicit torture is rarely shown). It probably comes down to presentation and gore, and it is hard to downplay rape. It probably has a lot to do with society, as Emasher mentioned.

 

@Racism: Discrimination is discrimination. There should be no need to say why it's not acceptable. Plus, we are currently living in a society that tries to discriminate as little as possible. There's still a long way to go, but I'm glad society is moving in that direction.

[nightwolf]

Because Racism actually deliberately offends someone.

Rape (while it may still offend some people) isn't directly trying to offend someone.

 

With your logic, someone should get kicked off an MMORPG because they killed another player.

 

Edit:

 

Also, if you feel so emotionally attached to a game character that you would be offended if it got rapped to the same degree that someone who had been the victim of racism would feel, you're playing too much of that game and probably should take a break.

 

 

I meant more the act rather than the character, you make it sounds as though just because you are a character online you don't have feelings outside the real world. It's nothing to do with the attach to the character, although I suppose thats worth taking into account, but rather doing the act and offending the real person.

 

Technically if you were to argue all extremes, then yes murdering somebody would be included. I'm not saying they should personally, because that'd completely rule out every fps out there, but in my own arguement it could be. Really it should be worrying that everyone is ok with murder and yet not with rape. As somebody mentioned before rape is not as bad as murder, unless you've experinced yourself.

 

/confusion.

[Emasher]

Thats not what I meant. I was more just saying that most people will understand that its just a game. I mean, people have done "teabagging" in FPS games for years which isn't that far off from rape, but nobody takes that seriously. I would think most people would think the same of online rape.

 

Exactly.