God? you there?

[weeyellowbloke]

On the topic of flaming if a christian posted "fools" as a response to atheist thought u can bet he would be flamed more than a guy standing under a space rocket at launch, but an atheist does it and its legitmate. Im not saying its right for anyone to do but just a bit of a shame really.

 

Very true, like I said earlier no one person will ever be able to research and know everything there is to know about the universe and theology, which means that no-one will be able to know an absolute truth for themselves and make a truely informed decision. So therefore, whatever anyone decides on the issue of God is no more right or wrong than anyone else. That's why I'm happy with my fence stance, alright it might be a bit neutral, but it's better in my mind then making a leap of faith either way based on the evidence I've looked at so far.

[Indigo]

Other things I've been wondering recently: Does it not seem slightly egotistical to simply create living creatures purely so they can believe in you and worship you through faith. It's almost like God wasn't sure he even existed himself and so needed something external to him to prove his existance to himself.

Well from a Christian perspective, God is himself in community (as the Trinity). The creation of humanity was an overflow/expression of the love within the Trinity between Father, Son and Spirit. God created us out of love.

[Oxigen_Waste]

Wait, what? Since when did Einstein deny The Big Bang. He was one of the people who suggested the theory that there was a Big Bang that'll be followed by a Big Crunch. Plus he died before there was any further evidence beyond the Doppler Shift effect (such as CMB radiation). I'm sure even if he did deny it back then due to lack of evidence he quite readily agree with it now based on modern observations. And how could could Copernicus deny the Big Bang when it wasn't even a theory in the early 16th century. Also the theory doesn't state that there was nothing, which then exploded. It suggest more that there was everything at a single point. I reckon you need to have a bit of a read up on the theory and the evidence behind it. (Yep I know I'm in for a big old flaming, but bugger it)

 

Copernicus was just another example of someone who was thinking to ahead of it's age.

And Einstein himself claimed on various ocasions that the Big Bang theory was just like a cushion, a way for it not to feel so bad, because the universe had always been there, no beginning. No origin. Got it? It was just there. Don't ask me "how" it could just be there, nobody in the world knows that, but the fact is, we're just assuming it had a beginning because it bothers us to envision something without a "start".

[jayseven]

Whislt all you said is true, it does nothing to prove my point wrong.

I know :P I was trying to get you to elaborate on what you meant.

I am not saying things don't "need" a beginning. I'm saying that they may not have one. Is that so hard to understand?

By this you mean that everything, not 'things', originates from a point in time, of which we do not understand, that followed an occurance in time and space where nothing/everthing was completely different.

 

I think when we're talking about objects in this universe, they surely only exist as they do in this universe. Before this 'big bang' the universe was a different thing, where nothing as we know it existed. everything in this universe began with the beginning of the universe, surely?

 

I agree with Einstein on this one: the big bang theory is ludicrous... WE FEEL THE NEED TO HAVE A RATIONAL EXPLANATION FOR EVERYTHING. And somethings can't be explained with our limited brain and knowledge. Consider the Universe: in the begginning there was nothing. Wich exploded. Does that make any type of sense? No! But people cling onto that just because they need an explanation, and I ask: Why? What does it matter? You cannot possibly beggin to understand even 5% of existence! For christ's sake, we can only perceive 10% of matter! All we know are assumptions!

It is true, our mind has a desire to make sense of the unsensible. I think we are basing our knowledge quest on the solidity of science - that there are rules and therefore answers for how the universe works. Once you start saying that science is actually ridiculous, you're starting to see why christians aren't phased by any scientific arguments! Which side are you on?

 

 

And based on the fact that all that we know has an origin, we apply that rule to all things wich we do not and cannot possibly understand. Why? Because we're stubborn and unable to look beyond our own stupidity and limitations. Who would ever dream of disagreeing with the Big Bang theory? They'de be the mock of the town... Fortunately, Einstein was the first, and soon many followed. Interesting, huh? Like Copernicus.

You say "stubborn and unable to look beyond our own stupidity" as if that is exactly what everyone ever does. What you mean by 'stupidity' is the limitations of the human mind, of the imagination - so say so! Because truthfully, the imagination is a very powerful tool. It defies any known logic about how the universe works and acts as a sandbox to which you can act out potentials and possibilities that you cannot practice.

 

And surely whatever the current idea of the big bang, of the shape of the world, of how light works... surely we need these ideas for the more successful counter-ideas. If you don't have something to question then how are you going to find the correct, or better answer?

 

 

Bottom line: "origin" is something that applies to us, because we are finite. Infinity has no need for origins or demises. It's just there. Unexplainble.

 

But the universe did begin once :P just the same way aristotle (or pythagoras? :S) said you can never hit the tortoise with an arrow, just as that last molecule of water overflows the glass...

 

Of course, surely the moment where it all 'happened' was ages long - time surely was not as it is today, and probably completely irrelevant. And stuff.

[The fish]

Of course, surely the moment where it all 'happened' was ages long - time surely was not as it is today, and probably completely irrelevant. And stuff.

 

The main reason I give a shit about our origins is because people around me use what they think (for no scientific reason) are our origins as a proof for a belief is they use to attempt (I say attempt as I have yet to hear anything like a remotely passable excuse) for being homophobic, amongst other things...

 

To quote on guy in my school, "rapists, murderers, and homosexuals are all equal".

 

He'll even proudly admit to having said it when challenged. He's No.1 on the GLA hit list...

[jayseven]

The main reason I give a shit about our origins is because people around me use what they think (for no scientific reason) are our origins as a proof for a belief is they use to attempt (I say attempt as I have yet to hear anything like a remotely passable excuse) for being homophobic, amongst other things...

 

To quote on guy in my school, "rapists, murderers, and homosexuals are all equal".

 

He'll even proudly admit to having said it when challenged. He's No.1 on the GLA hit list...

... hmmm :/ not a clever guy, is he? Well surely he's just subscribing to the "everyone is created equal" theorem... so use his argument against him and say that he is also just as good as any he lists, by his own definition.

[The fish]

... hmmm :/ not a clever guy, is he? Well surely he's just subscribing to the "everyone is created equal" theorem... so use his argument against him and say that he is also just as good as any he lists, by his own definition.

 

He actually says it's due to murder, rape, and doing something which is natural based on a natural feeling in private with another consenting adult are equally sinful things.

 

Yeah, he's an idiot.

[Paj!]

you dont know its imaginary,speakinglike thatmeans your telling themwaht to think.

 

and if god is imaginary, hes had a huge impact on the earth hasnt he?

i thinkthere must have beensomething to start the whole 'god' thing off,someone must have done something.

 

Um..yeah. For countless years people have looked to a "god" or "gods" for help and salvation. In today's age we live in MEDC's where we no longer have to/need to (in most cases). We can produce are own food on our own trms, rather than praying for a good harvest etc. People developed these ideas into a book and books, which spread the word back in the olden days. I need salvation ,more than most it seems. Yet i'm not having some spiritual awakening or something. If I do, i'll be so happy. To know that there is something after death, rather than have a void or nothingness that threatens to engulf me every second of every day that is incomprehensible.

I'm pretty sure i'll go insane at some point in my life. Bit unfair, but I guess I think too deeply into things.

 

I just don't see God existing personally, and my brain doesn't accept it, because it doesn't. At least I used to believe, rather than being raised a crazy atheist or something.

 

I've witnessed religion do such damage pretty close to home, and it's so pointless and again makes me want to give them a slap.

 

Things happen and I think "Of course it would be me." . God punishing me? Maybe.

[Haden]

... hmmm :/ not a clever guy, is he? Well surely he's just subscribing to the "everyone is created equal" theorem... so use his argument against him and say that he is also just as good as any he lists, by his own definition.

 

You can use that against me if you want I will stand by it. There are better people and worse people but we are all as screwed as each other in the end from hitler to mother teresea becuae of the theology of the perfection of god. That doesnt discount that mother teresea was a damn good woman.

[Oxigen_Waste]

But the universe did begin once :P just the same way aristotle (or pythagoras? :S) said you can never hit the tortoise with an arrow, just as that last molecule of water overflows the glass...

Of course, surely the moment where it all 'happened' was ages long - time surely was not as it is today, and probably completely irrelevant. And stuff.

 

I completely understand where your coming from, but this is precisely what I'm saying. You say that before the "big bang" the universe was a different thing wich evolved into this universe... what I'm asking you to consider is:

There was never a big bang or a beggining. Nothing changed! It was just there. As always! The big bang is considered as a probable cause of the origin of the universe, even though there are absolutely no proof that the universe had an origin, other than the fact that we believe that "everything has a beginning, and so the universe must have one too". We're just seeking an answer to a question that should never be asked in the first place. That's wht Einstein was going on about, in all probability, the Universe had no beginning! It was always like this, since ever, eternally existant. No start, no finish. We just can't seem to embrace that idea, because frankly the human mind has difficulties accepting that something without an origin could exist. It's like trying to imagine what a person who was born blind sees! (After surgery that allows them to see, they are allways marveled to see the darkness, as it's something they've never seen... and yet everyone assumes that that's what they "see". Guess what? They see nothing. Absolutely nothing at all. Not even darkness. Now try imagining that in your mind...)

The universe is not human! It's extra-human. God damnit, the universe = all matter. We can't even see past 10% of it's composition!

[Mr_Odwin]

And welcome to the party odwin!

 

Been on my hols and only just catching up on Forum stuff!

 

The only thing that I have to contribute to the thread at the moment is a quick note that not all religions should be tarred with the same brush. It's not correct to apply your understanding of one Christian Sect to another. They may have great differences in theology and practices and I think it unreasonable to criticise a religion without fully grasping its doctrines.

 

(However, something we should all sensibly agree on is that the guy from The fish's school is an idiot.)

[weeyellowbloke]

I completely understand where your coming from, but this is precisely what I'm saying. You say that before the "big bang" the universe was a different thing wich evolved into this universe... what I'm asking you to consider is:

There was never a big bang or a beggining. Nothing changed! It was just there. As always! The big bang is considered as a probable cause of the origin of the universe, even though there are absolutely no proof that the universe had an origin, other than the fact that we believe that "everything has a beginning, and so the universe must have one too". We're just seeking an answer to a question that should never be asked in the first place. That's wht Einstein was going on about, in all probability, the Universe had no beginning! It was always like this, since ever, eternally existant. No start, no finish. We just can't seem to embrace that idea, because frankly the human mind has difficulties accepting that something without an origin could exist.

 

Again, what? I don't get why you try to refute one of the most proved theories in cosmology. Seriously have you ever read up on Big Bang theory. What your suggesting is that the universe has always been in the state it's in now and always will be. You say this despite the massive amounts of evidence that everything in the universe is accelerating away from us. For your theory to work you'd have to constantly have new matter being produced and destroyed which does not work as within an enclosed system matter cannot be produced or destroyed, only change state. Also the observations of distant objects such as quasars (which due to the time it takes the light to reach us shows the distant past) reveals that the early universe existed in a different state to today and has not existed in the same state eternally. I don't know why you keep insisting on bringing Einstein up as well. Yes, he did deny the existence of a beginning even though his general theory of relativity indicated one. He felt that the universe having a beginning pinted to much towards the existence of a God. So he fudged the results with the cosmological constant to allow for a constant universe. He later admited this was his greatest mistake and accepted the universe must have had a beginning. Of course in some way you may be right in that the universe may have always existed and always will exist in different states (so in the beginning it existed all together at a singularity and in the future it will either go back to a singularity or exist in low energy heat death with all matter homogeneously spread throughout it). Anyway, please buy yourself a book on cosmology or something as claiming there is abolutely no proof the universe had a beginning is slightly ridiculous. (Once again the flame proof jacket comes out the wardrobe)

 

Been on my hols and only just catching up on Forum stuff!

 

The only thing that I have to contribute to the thread at the moment is a quick note that not all religions should be tarred with the same brush. It's not correct to apply your understanding of one Christian Sect to another. They may have great differences in theology and practices and I think it unreasonable to criticise a religion without fully grasping its doctrines.

 

(However, something we should all sensibly agree on is that the guy from The fish's school is an idiot.)

 

Once again Odders comes up trumps for sense. My girlfriend put it like this once, "people get hurt by religion, not by God". Makes sense as religion is basically run by people and inevitably people always end up hurting other people, especially when they're stuck in positions of power as religion does.

[DCK]

Yay, there's a thread like this every month!

 

Anyway, God is as true as the Flying Spaghetti Monster and the Invisible Pink Unicorn. People just like to believe what they want.

 

(Probably going to get involved again and post lengthy replies tonight )

[The fish]

Yay, there's a thread like this every month!

 

Anyway, God is as true as the Flying Spaghetti Monster and the Invisible Pink Unicorn. People just like to believe what they want.

 

(Probably going to get involved again and post lengthy replies tonight )

 

How dare you compare the almighty creator, the Flying Spaghetti Monster (blessed be his noodley appendage), to those two foolish ideas of man!

 

Infidel!

 

:wink:

[Kirkatronics]

Brining back this to see what the newer members think, looking forward to your replies.

[Supergrunch]

Okay stop it, bumping is bad, yellow infraction issued.

 

[locked]