Communism

[Zechs Merquise]

Under Hitler the Nazis where only a socialist party by name. They where about as right wing as you can get.

 

That could be debated. Right and left wing as terms have very littel real meaning. Stalin could be said to left wing in the extreme, however his regime was as Fascist and totalitarian as Nazi Germany, I would argue far more in fact.

 

Nonetheless, it's our fault, not the ideology.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree. At the end of the day if a plan doesn't take into account a variable and assumes variables to perform perfectly in a uniform way over a massive population, then it is flawed.

 

A perfect ideology would make allowances for human nature, or it is not based in reality.

[Haden]

For your information, he was a Nazi, rather a National Socialist.

 

Nazism is the most extreme form of fascism. Hitler was a fascist for lots of reasons will go through them in a bit if this debate carries on bit tired atm lol.

 

Hold on, lets put this into a little context here

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/RUSnazipact.htm

 

Yep the British and French in the interwar period acted very badly and quite weakly to be honest. Britian viewed Germany as a buffer state to Russian agression. But yeh it doesnt make what I said about Stalin being self serving wrong he was a complete bastard when it came to foriegn policy probably becuase he was a complete bastard when he came to domestic policy. But yeh realistically thank god as he helped us loads but that doesnt mean I cant call him a self serving horrific bastard of a man.

 

Nonetheless, it's our fault, not the ideology.

 

Chicken or the egg i guess all I will say is human nature was around before communism was a speck in marxs eye and as I say the communist ideology in the manifesto is a massive force for division in society imo. Again I actaully have it and when im less tired I will pick out bits that stand out. It has loads of good stuff in it to though and the 19th century was a horrid time for lots of people that were in europe nevermind africa but yeh Im not gonna defend communism as a whole as anything that big goverment always ends up a disaster.

[Oxigen_Waste]

We'll have to agree to disagree. At the end of the day if a plan doesn't take into account a variable and assumes variables to perform perfectly in a uniform way over a massive population, then it is flawed.

 

A perfect ideology would make allowances for human nature, or it is not based in reality.

 

As the late Albert Einstein once said:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."

 

How can you make allowances for stupidity? You can't!!! We're too fucking stupid to do anything right, that's the problem! There is no "possible solution", there are "passable solutions", but never absolute solutions. And frankly, the one nearest perfection, as an ideology, is communism.

 

 

The same goes for Haden.

[jayseven]

Human stupidity is a bit too broad to cover general human greed and selfishness, which surely is a larger factor in the inability to successfully implement Communism than mere stupidity?

 

Plus there's more than two things that are infinite :P *votes for unfair use of quote*

[Zechs Merquise]

Yep the British and French in the interwar period acted very badly and quite weakly to be honest. Britian viewed Germany as a buffer state to Russian agression. But yeh it doesnt make what I said about Stalin being self serving wrong he was a complete bastard when it came to foriegn policy probably becuase he was a complete bastard when he came to domestic policy. But yeh realistically thank god as he helped us loads but that doesnt mean I cant call him a self serving horrific bastard of a man.

 

I find it odd when people say Stalin saved us from Hitler.

 

Point one: Britain declared war on Germany

 

Point two: As much as Stalin may have exhausted the German war machine, Hitler exhausted the Soviet war machine, effectively Hitler and Stalin both saved Western Europe from each other.

[Oxigen_Waste]

Human stupidity is a bit too broad to cover general human greed and selfishness, which surely is a larger factor in the inability to successfully implement Communism than mere stupidity?

 

Plus there's more than two things that are infinite :P *votes for unfair use of quote*

 

Greed and selfishness come from stupidity. Duh.

[ReZourceman]

So whats communism, in one sentence?

[Oxigen_Waste]

So whats communism, in one sentence?

 

A party.

[Haden]

As the late Albert Einstein once said:

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."

 

How can you make allowances for stupidity? You can't!!! We're too fucking stupid to do anything right, that's the problem! There is no "possible solution", there are "passable solutions", but never absolute solutions. And frankly, the one nearest perfection, as an ideology, is communism.

 

 

The same goes for Haden.

 

Being human are you calling yourself stupid or are you above the common guy?

 

I find it odd when people say Stalin saved us from Hitler.

 

Point one: Britain declared war on Germany

 

Point two: As much as Stalin may have exhausted the German war machine, Hitler exhausted the Soviet war machine, effectively Hitler and Stalin both saved Western Europe from each other.

 

Thats true I guess although the cold war changed things but then again without ww2 there would be no cold war. So hmm lol.

 

So whats communism, in one sentence?

 

A type of state born from a historical theorom that tried to solve class issues that arose in the 19th century and was put into practice and ultimatley failed in the 20th century.

[Meta_Omega]

So whats communism, in one sentence?

 

Accomplish the goals of Socialism through revolution.

[Oxigen_Waste]

Being human are you calling yourself stupid or are you above the common guy?

 

I am stupid. So are you. We all are.

[Kurtle Squad]

I believe in a certain amount of Money Communism.

 

Why should a footballer get more money than someone that works harder; or is more important to society?!

[Haden]

I am stupid. So are you. We all are.

 

By regonising your own stupitidy surely you can change it then? I mean thats pretty defeatist im stupid but hell im not gonna do anything about it but call everyone stupid just because some political theory didnt work out lol.

[Kurtle Squad]

I am stupid. So are you. We all are.

 

Which is why the country is run by morons who:

 

Have Illegal Immigrants as SECURITY GUARDS - Any of which could've been terrorists

 

Don't take control of public transport...making it more expensive than "car-ing".

 

Think "pay as you drive" could be a good idea....There's already the fuel, which acts as pay as you drive; though not area-wise, however, the systems will only cause more problems than solve.

Making public transport cheaper and more regular is the only way forward.

 

Are pussies when it comes to fighing so called "human rights".

 

Don't have proper sentances for criminals

 

By regonising your own stupitidy surely you can change it then? I mean thats pretty defeatist im stupid but hell im not gonna do anything about it but call everyone stupid just because some political theory didnt work out lol.

 

Actually; if you "watch" yourself every day, you'll realise that so many urges or beliefs conflict that it's impossible.

[Oxigen_Waste]

By regonising your own stupitidy surely you can change it then? I mean thats pretty defeatist im stupid but hell im not gonna do anything about it but call everyone stupid just because some political theory didnt work out lol.

 

Of course you can change... but you can never overcome it. You can get better at not being stupid, however, there will always be parts of you wich are stupid.What really proves that we ARE stupid no matter what is that no political theory ever works out. They all have a relative success.

[Meta_Omega]

Of course you can change... but you can never overcome it. You can get better at not being stupid, however, there will always be parts of you wich are stupid.What really proves that we ARE stupid no matter what is that no political theory ever works out. They all have a relative success.

 

Oxigen_Waste speaks the truth.

[Haden]

Hmm I see humanity has made lots of mistakes but there have also been a lot of good guys in history who have been anything but stupid. I feel its not possible just to whitewash humanity as stupid even though I sometimes feel like I agree with you lol.

 

As for the conflicts and urges things yeh that is really scary why we actually do stuff. But still agian possible to control I think. Maybe Im to much of an optomist I mean its kinda sad how u can predict humanitys pattenrs but there are individual 1 in 1000 men who make u smile and buck the trend.

[jayseven]

Greed and selfishness come from stupidity. Duh.

 

From the rest of your messages, do you think humans are anything BUT stupid? What is your definition of stupid? If there is no intelligence but just stupidity, then doe stupidity itself exist :P?

 

Sorry but i just think saying "humans are stupid" is disregarding the individual. I think intelligence does little but dwindle with the more people you put in the room, but that does not mean there is not the potential or capacity for things to be different.

[Haden]

From the rest of your messages, do you think humans are anything BUT stupid? What is your definition of stupid? If there is no intelligence but just stupidity, then doe stupidity itself exist :P?

 

Sorry but i just think saying "humans are stupid" is disregarding the individual. I think intelligence does little but dwindle with the more people you put in the room, but that does not mean there is not the potential or capacity for things to be different.

 

thankyou. I was begenning to think i was alone on an emo forum. What is with the negativity how about less blanket statements a few more indvdual examinations. Look at history and see who doesnt fit with it thats usually a good clue as to who is the classic.

[Sheikah]

Precisely. This is isn't cloud cuckoo land because of human presence. Otherwise it would be. You said it all there. The ideology itself is absolutely flawless from every single point of view, but people aren't that perfect. We are flawed, hence, it can never work.

 

The ideology is flawed to begin with simply due to the fact it doesn't take into account human nature. The ideology may as well not exist.

[Oxigen_Waste]

Hmm I see humanity has made lots of mistakes but there have also been a lot of good guys in history who have been anything but stupid. I feel its not possible just to whitewash humanity as stupid even though I sometimes feel like I agree with you lol.

 

As for the conflicts and urges things yeh that is really scary why we actually do stuff. But still agian possible to control I think. Maybe Im to much of an optomist I mean its kinda sad how u can predict humanitys pattenrs but there are individual 1 in 1000 men who make u smile and buck the trend.

 

From the rest of your messages, do you think humans are anything BUT stupid? What is your definition of stupid? If there is no intelligence but just stupidity, then doe stupidity itself exist :P?

 

Sorry but i just think saying "humans are stupid" is disregarding the individual. I think intelligence does little but dwindle with the more people you put in the room, but that does not mean there is not the potential or capacity for things to be different.

 

Now, I'm not saying that everyone is stupid. All I'm saying is that collectively, we are stupid. There have been, as Haden pointed out, many people who were nothing short of genious, but the matter of fact is, that no matter how brilliant a life-plan we are given, as a race, we just fuck everything up and destroy every single chance of success that any individual crafted.

I believe none of us is truly stupid(there are some exceptions of course, but we all have some good in us), but the matter of fact is, as a whole, the human race tend to fuck everything up.

 

But yeah, we've many reasons to be proud of humanity. The problem is, there are 100 times more reasons to be ashamed of it.

 

The ideology is flawed to begin with simply due to the fact it doesn't take into account human nature. The ideology may as well not exist.

 

All ideologies fail to take into account human nature, because human nature ruins everything. There is no possible solution. Some work better than others, but there is no utopian solution.

[Haden]

Now, I'm not saying that everyone is stupid. All I'm saying is that collectively, we are stupid. There have been, as Haden pointed out, many people who were nothing short of genious, but the matter of fact is, that no matter how brilliant a life-plan we are given, as a race, we just fuck everything up and destroy every single chance of success that any individual crafted.

I believe none of us is truly stupid(there are some exceptions of course, but we all have some good in us), but the matter of fact is, as a whole, the human race tend to fuck everything up.

 

But yeah, we've many reasons to be proud of humanity. The problem is, there are 100 times more reasons to be ashamed of it.

 

 

 

All ideologies fail to take into account human nature, because human nature ruins everything. There is no possible solution. Some work better than others, but there is no utopian solution.

 

lol fair enough to be honest as a christiann yeh i agree with u there is not possible solution to humanitys woes.

[Zechs Merquise]

I believe in a certain amount of Money Communism.

 

Why should a footballer get more money than someone that works harder; or is more important to society?!

 

It's down to skills, and the need for those skills. We could all say the local bin man is important to us on an individual level than David Beckham, we could also say the bin man works harder.

 

The big difference is there are very few people with David Beckham's skill, hence he can charge more as he is a rare commodity. Sadly, if the bin man tried to charge that much he would be laughed at, as although he works hard, and although we all need him, he could be easily replaced.

 

It's the same argument with barristers and solicitors their work is VERY well paid, sometimes in excess of £300 an hour, but they are again being paid for two things - skills and expertise and the time they have invested to get those skills.

 

They train for years to attain the right qualifications, and need an economic renumeration for that investment, they are again (like footballers) in high demand as there are not many people whith those legal skills.

 

One of the fundamental reasons why communism failed was with everyone on the same or very similar wages why would anyone bother to be inventive or hardworking? A shelf stacker on the same as a barrister or an engineer? Who on earth would train and try so hard when for little effort they would recieve the same reward?

 

The ideology is flawed to begin with simply due to the fact it doesn't take into account human nature. The ideology may as well not exist.

 

Superbly summed up.

[Chuck]

One thing. Benny ftw. EL DUCHE

[jayseven]

I often envision a small community where each individual has a respectable and necessary role for the whole to exist comfortably. I think part of the problem with 'humankind' is that we all feel vastly insignificant and unnecessary in teh grand scheme of things.