Flaight Posted July 16, 2008 Posted July 16, 2008 I just saw the E3 conference video with Miyamoto bunch, I think it's fantastic. I'm a little surprised about criticism I read here, but I can understand it as generating 'fun' in games have been mostly about being given a target and reaching that target as a gamer. Wii Music seems to be different. Are you people familiar with the 'fun' of performing music with others? I used to play the violin and did a lot of that in my early teens. Lately I picked up a keyboard and with my mates on guitar and drums we do our own little gig. If you play Guitar Hero, I think you're automatically tasting this joy of performing together, though identifying that 'fun' might be unclear due to the distinct goal driven nature of Guitar Hero. I see Wii Music to be a free form version of this, where you could dictate the style of the outcome. I suspect Nintendo tried to put a scoring system, then realized they can't really come up with a formula to judge your band's performance. So it's not goal driven. But so is a real band, which is completely free form. Except, to be in a real band or orchestra requires a lot of effort and money, so this sort of creative 'fun' is hard to come by. I think this is the gap Wii Music is trying to fill. Your grandma or 5 year old brother or a tone deaf mate of yours can now join. Nintendo said they are trying to "engage people in different ways". This is definitely one way, a good way too. Obviously it's not for everybody, like Final Fantasy or Halo isn't for everybody. But I'm pretty sure it will be successful in generating 'fun' for those of us who like this sort of thing.
Girly hiyaz!~ Gamer Posted July 16, 2008 Posted July 16, 2008 oh no it's being posted on music websites. how embarrassing....
Shino Posted July 16, 2008 Posted July 16, 2008 I'm still very interested in this, even if its simple. I bet most of us have done invisible guitars or drums while listening to something and this is just that but with some form of input, and with the added feature of doing it with friends. Its a soft version of Rock Band which also means it doesn't need 200€ just to play it.
dazzybee Posted July 16, 2008 Posted July 16, 2008 I just saw the E3 conference video with Miyamoto bunch, I think it's fantastic. I'm a little surprised about criticism I read here, but I can understand it as generating 'fun' in games have been mostly about being given a target and reaching that target as a gamer. Wii Music seems to be different. Are you people familiar with the 'fun' of performing music with others? I used to play the violin and did a lot of that in my early teens. Lately I picked up a keyboard and with my mates on guitar and drums we do our own little gig. If you play Guitar Hero, I think you're automatically tasting this joy of performing together, though identifying that 'fun' might be unclear due to the distinct goal driven nature of Guitar Hero. I see Wii Music to be a free form version of this, where you could dictate the style of the outcome. I suspect Nintendo tried to put a scoring system, then realized they can't really come up with a formula to judge your band's performance. So it's not goal driven. But so is a real band, which is completely free form. Except, to be in a real band or orchestra requires a lot of effort and money, so this sort of creative 'fun' is hard to come by. I think this is the gap Wii Music is trying to fill. Your grandma or 5 year old brother or a tone deaf mate of yours can now join. Nintendo said they are trying to "engage people in different ways". This is definitely one way, a good way too. Obviously it's not for everybody, like Final Fantasy or Halo isn't for everybody. But I'm pretty sure it will be successful in generating 'fun' for those of us who like this sort of thing. I would agree completely - IF YOU COULD DECIDE WHICH NOTES YOU PLAYED AND CREATE WHATEVER YOU WANTED, BUT IT SEEMS YOU CAN'T!! You just do stuff and the game decides how to interpret it, or with the songs already on there, it just plays it!!! How is that rewarding!?!??! It will be fun for a few minutes
darksnowman Posted July 16, 2008 Posted July 16, 2008 Welcome back Flaighty-boy! Lol, I'm kinda stuck in the middle over Wii Music. On one hand it should be a good old laugh... but on the other hand, just what is the point of it? I hope there is some subtleties to the gameplay or something so that its just not some new sort of waggle/ shake fest. The bit where they all played together in the conference did look like good fun though, which is what its all about!
mcj metroid Posted July 16, 2008 Posted July 16, 2008 Some tracks in the game: .............my god.. but in fairness all we can hope for here is classic nintendo themes... majority of songs will be that hopefully.. even brain training 2 had better music
Flaight Posted July 16, 2008 Posted July 16, 2008 I would agree completely - IF YOU COULD DECIDE WHICH NOTES YOU PLAYED AND CREATE WHATEVER YOU WANTED, BUT IT SEEMS YOU CAN'T!!Performing together is fun. Especially when everybody contributes to generating an articulation (albeit within limited scope), which together fashion one performance. The chap who's been playing the guitar for us is pretty bad. He hits the wrong notes all the time (so do I), but that doesn't reduce the overwhelming joy that comes out of the experience. Obviously the control over an instrument is clearly limited in Wii Music, much like the karts in Mario Kart are limited compared to real vehicles. It seems like you just decide the timing and volume of the notes. Playing real instruments (or something you have a lot of control over) isn't easy for everybody. I picked up the Violin at the age of 3 and took 10 years to get to a reasonable standard where I could forget that I was holding the instrument (so yes, I'm not gifted ). Even harder for a little kid or somebody who's utterly clumsy or tone deaf. By the looks of it, I think Wii Music is in the business of extracting that joy of performing together (and actually get something listenable) without the burden that comes with the real world complications. This, to me, is ingenious. You make a good point though. There is also another form of 'fun' in practicing a lot, even for years and years, to learn to hit the right note at the right time, control your breathing, controlling the weight on your wrist or fingers, etc etc. All that even before getting to the point where you feel that the instrument is the extension of your body and play it while sleeping. But that version of 'fun' isnt what Wii Music is trying to extract. It's a very limited software, which seems to me as something that came out of researching on why people have fun when playing together. They then narrowly focussed on the element of 'fun' that can involve anybody. The simplification seems about right given that they are trying to ensure everybody can participate in the process, if they care to do so. But, I understand that that 'fun' isn't for everybody, like anything in life. Welcome back Flaighty-boy! Lol, I'm kinda stuck in the middle over Wii Music. On one hand it should be a good old laugh... but on the other hand, just what is the point of it? I hope there is some subtleties to the gameplay or something so that its just not some new sort of waggle/ shake fest. The bit where they all played together in the conference did look like good fun though, which is what its all about!Hehe cheers. Yeah I think this sort of thing can always evolve or improve, but I can just imagine dragging some of my mates who are completely inept in performing music and actually do something together in musical terms. I do agree it's limited - hell, I play real instrument (violin) pretty well - so I'm well aware of its short comings, but with a little thinking it becomes clear what Nintendo looked into to come up with this idea.
Emasher Posted July 16, 2008 Posted July 16, 2008 It really doesn't seem to have a point. It sounds like you just watch a music video and wave your arms around. But this is Nintendo after all. Who knows, maybe the game is deeper than it seems. We knew it wasn't going to be like Guitar Hero or Rock Band, it was supposed to be simpler. This game is just to please the share holders I think as they know its going to sell really well to non-gamers. But I can't even see to many casual gamers wanting to play this game if its like they said it would be. If they actually had it so you pressed the buttons and it played different notes rather than the next note in the song and the notes you had to play came up on screen, it might be better. So far this game doesn't seem to warrant a purchase from me, but I might if I owned a balance board for the drumming as that does seem a pretty fun.
Girly hiyaz!~ Gamer Posted July 16, 2008 Posted July 16, 2008 the drumming looks dead clumsy and awkward.
Emasher Posted July 16, 2008 Posted July 16, 2008 But if you want to try to learn to play the drums a bit before investing in a real drum set...
Girly hiyaz!~ Gamer Posted July 16, 2008 Posted July 16, 2008 i can assure that playing the drums on this will be nothing like playing real drums.
Emasher Posted July 16, 2008 Posted July 16, 2008 True, but it will still be more like playing drums than the sax playing in the game will be like real sax playing. I'm not saying the game will be good. I'm just saying maybe its not as bad as we thought.
Flaight Posted July 16, 2008 Posted July 16, 2008 I'm interested in the bit "Pick up the baton" in the description. Did any of you read/hear anything about this? This E3 didn't go into it, but I reckon it's something like the one Miyamoto did 2 years ago? I fancied that bit for years If I can save a 1-4 player session then conduct it later with further articulation, they've certainly found a demography (me!) who'll be fascinated by that sort of madness.
flameboy Posted July 16, 2008 Posted July 16, 2008 One thing I totally forgot about that Wii Music kinda reminds me of soundbeam a device we have at work, which uses movement to make musical sounds from hundreds of instruments and can have tons of different people playing at once. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soundbeam We use it at work for some of our blind students who cannot play real instruments due to for example dexterity problems. There was a lad on it at work today who could play the drums way better than that dude at the nintendo conference.
dazzybee Posted July 16, 2008 Posted July 16, 2008 Performing together is fun. Especially when everybody contributes to generating an articulation (albeit within limited scope), which together fashion one performance. The chap who's been playing the guitar for us is pretty bad. He hits the wrong notes all the time (so do I), but that doesn't reduce the overwhelming joy that comes out of the experience. Obviously the control over an instrument is clearly limited in Wii Music, much like the karts in Mario Kart are limited compared to real vehicles. It seems like you just decide the timing and volume of the notes. Playing real instruments (or something you have a lot of control over) isn't easy for everybody. I picked up the Violin at the age of 3 and took 10 years to get to a reasonable standard where I could forget that I was holding the instrument (so yes, I'm not gifted ). Even harder for a little kid or somebody who's utterly clumsy or tone deaf. By the looks of it, I think Wii Music is in the business of extracting that joy of performing together (and actually get something listenable) without the burden that comes with the real world complications. This, to me, is ingenious. You make a good point though. There is also another form of 'fun' in practicing a lot, even for years and years, to learn to hit the right note at the right time, control your breathing, controlling the weight on your wrist or fingers, etc etc. All that even before getting to the point where you feel that the instrument is the extension of your body and play it while sleeping. But that version of 'fun' isnt what Wii Music is trying to extract. It's a very limited software, which seems to me as something that came out of researching on why people have fun when playing together. They then narrowly focussed on the element of 'fun' that can involve anybody. The simplification seems about right given that they are trying to ensure everybody can participate in the process, if they care to do so. But, I understand that that 'fun' isn't for everybody, like anything in life. Hehe cheers. Yeah I think this sort of thing can always evolve or improve, but I can just imagine dragging some of my mates who are completely inept in performing music and actually do something together in musical terms. I do agree it's limited - hell, I play real instrument (violin) pretty well - so I'm well aware of its short comings, but with a little thinking it becomes clear what Nintendo looked into to come up with this idea. WHy can't they take EA's approach (NEVER thought I'd say that) and have both, this insultingly easy mode where ANYONE can play; AND a mode where you do have the control, it is challenging etc. Wii Music All Play!!!!! And the theory is just flawed, do you kno how popular Guitar Hero is? Thats popular with my family and friends who have never played a videogame before! And its a game and you feel good. Rock Bands the same, we feel good playing together creating music - some go on easy and some of us on expert, we all have fun and play at a level suitable to our skills EVERYONE PLAYS TOGETHER!! This is not a game, its insulting, patronising and offers no sustained enjoyment as far as I can tell. It is fun CREATING music, not slowing music down and adding in a few more notes, thats fun for 5 minutes!!!!
Flaight Posted July 16, 2008 Posted July 16, 2008 WHy can't they take EA's approach (NEVER thought I'd say that) and have both, this insultingly easy mode where ANYONE can play; AND a mode where you do have the control, it is challenging etc. Wii Music All Play!!!!!Probably because it's too much work. And it'll be more of the same - something Nintendo is trying to avoid where possible. And ROFL @ recommending EA's approach, I too never thought of saying that But you are right, if we're in for doing the same, Guitar Hero has the right direction. Well, one thing for sure mate, whatever you make of it, it's a good thing that Nintendo is making games YOU don't understand why it's fun. If they only made games which you would find fun, there would've been a limit to how much Nintendo can spread Wii/DS. One person's sense of perception is never complete on its own. Heck even one big group's sense of perception isn't enough. I mean, look at the previous mainstream gaming before the arrival of Wii/DS. It was so narrowly focussed on serving only a few types of 'fun'. That 'group' (so called hardcore gamers, though I'm one myself) decided that Wii/DS will be an epic fail. The wider public decided otherwise, because wider public have people in it who have different view of 'fun'. That's why Nintendo is selling like there's no tomorrow. With WiiMusic Nintendo is just trying to tap into other forms of 'fun'. I for one can understand their thinking. I can just imagine how they came to design WiiMusic because I happen to have tasted that sense of joy playing in a real band (with keyboard) and quartet (with violin). If you fancy, I'll explain it in detail. I just don't want to make this post too long.
dazzybee Posted July 16, 2008 Posted July 16, 2008 Probably because it's too much work. And it'll be more of the same - something Nintendo is trying to avoid where possible. And ROFL @ recommending EA's approach, I too never thought of saying that But you are right, if we're in for doing the same, Guitar Hero has the right direction. Well, one thing for sure mate, whatever you make of it, it's a good thing that Nintendo is making games YOU don't understand why it's fun. If they only made games which you would find fun, there would've been a limit to how much Nintendo can spread Wii/DS. One person's sense of perception is never complete on its own. Heck even one big group's sense of perception isn't enough. I mean, look at the previous mainstream gaming before the arrival of Wii/DS. It was so narrowly focussed on serving only a few types of 'fun'. That 'group' (so called hardcore gamers, though I'm one myself) decided that Wii/DS will be an epic fail. The wider public decided otherwise, because wider public have people in it who have different view of 'fun'. That's why Nintendo is selling like there's no tomorrow. With WiiMusic Nintendo is just trying to tap into other forms of 'fun'. I for one can understand their thinking. I can just imagine how they came to design WiiMusic because I happen to have tasted that sense of joy playing in a real band (with keyboard) and quartet (with violin). If you fancy, I'll explain it in detail. I just don't want to make this post too long. I know exacyly, I've been in bands for 10 years. I love it! I love playing, always bringing out the guitar at parties and everyone joins in, I've always love "music" based games from Parappa the Rapper, Donkey Konga, Rhythm Tengoku - all of them, I've even got the DS taiko drum master, both Oendan games, Jam with the band. Hell, I've EVEN got Jam Session I love music software, I understand all of these pieces of software (yes, even Jam Sessions ) but this game....I just don't get it. I'm buying it, don't get me wrong, the drum kit bit looks great so that'll be a laugh, but it's such a waste and I think it will get stale quick. I just don't see the fun in creating something you have no control of, I want to be able to create all thesongs ive written with these crazy instruments and play them with my friends! All I ask is for the power to select which notes I play and that I CAN go out of tune; non musicians can still mess about and play what they like, but.....I'm repeating myself. Forget it And also about the games aimed at me, seriously, I couldn't love casual gaming any more. I own all three consoles - I own a handful of 30 games, a couple of PS3 and about 40 Wii games - I love this shit. I train my brain, get fit and even cook with the new cooking guide, I love these new experiences, and you know what i UNDERSTAND these new experiences, every single one of them, I see their point...... Wii Music.....I just don't get it!! What is fun about pretending to play an instrument while not having much control of the song?
RedShell Posted July 16, 2008 Posted July 16, 2008 I reckon people should reserve judgement on this one until we see a bit more of it, I just get the feeling there's going to be more to it than what was shown during the conference. I don't believe that they'd have put so many different instruments in to this and then not give you the ability to play your own stuff, doesn't make sense. Then there's the making / sharing videos thing, totally lends itself to that idea too. But even if that's not the case and it really is so basic I think I'd still enjoy it, the drum kit in particular has me sold, seems such a great laugh and the Balance Board pedals thing is rad.
Flaight Posted July 16, 2008 Posted July 16, 2008 Your right RedShell, I am assuming a lot here, but even if the game was what we think it is (very basic), I still think it's ingenious way to tap into that particular fun which is hard to extract on its own without going through the classical training which is arduous. You turn your head at your bassist and you see him gradually inhaling to give you a sign. You know the sign is coming so you sense the rhythm. As he exhales and gives you a sharp nod with his chin, you've anticipated it enough to strike the next note on your fiddle. The oboe and cello next to you have seen the same so they all ride the same wave. Other times you have the theme so you take everyone else for a ride, other times somehow things just... work out. Or not. There's an immense joy in this process. This might be niche, I don't know, but very common in the world of classical music. This is a far cry from the beat driven music game like Guitar Hero, which is more about riding the pre defined hook, same every single time you play. Needless to say, I'm not saying that isn't fun - it IS fun. But that is a different kind of fun. To me it seems like WiiMusic is attempting a very brave turn in this by extracting the 'fun' that's hard to extract - the chemistry and improvised articulation of a group of players, without the need to go through the formal training in various instruments. As soon as you bring in the element of controlling the pitch with different key press, you bring in the element of technical ability which threatens to take away your attention from the group chemistry. Obviously, this may turn out to be COMPLETELY different in the end... so fingers crossed. It might end up to be just like Guitar Hero, in which case I'd be disappointed as I have it already. But others will enjoy it so it's ok. Nintendo should cater to all audiences. I'm still interested in finding more about this baton waving thing on recorded performances...
Jamba Posted July 16, 2008 Posted July 16, 2008 It just looks like a whole bunch of people pretending to be in a band and kind of button bashing... There doesn't really seem to be any challenge just makes you looks stupid so you can laugh at yourself. Also I'm pissed that probably one of the most important modes requires the balance board. Nice one guys. And anyone who enjoyed watching/listening to that crap that was eminating from the speakers while they were playing needs their heads checked. If the staff cant get their acts together and make it sound even half decent, then I'd rather get some 3 yr olds to go play make believe in my living room with some pots and pans. At least that would be cute.
McPhee Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 I'd rather get some 3 yr olds to go play make believe in my living room with some pots and pans. At least that would be cute. And you'd have the fun and games of being branded a paedophile! Go team! : peace:
RedShell Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 Great vid here showcasing the drums: http://www.gametrailers.com/player/36804.html Awesome! :awesome:
Owen Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 I reckon people should reserve judgement on this one until we see a bit more of it, I just get the feeling there's going to be more to it than what was shown during the conference. I don't believe that they'd have put so many different instruments in to this and then not give you the ability to play your own stuff, doesn't make sense. Then there's the making / sharing videos thing, totally lends itself to that idea too. But even if that's not the case and it really is so basic I think I'd still enjoy it, the drum kit in particular has me sold, seems such a great laugh and the Balance Board pedals thing is rad. Yeah i love the drumming bit i must admit..the rest just didn't look like it works very well at the moment.. I reckon Europe will get this at Christmas while America will get Animal Crossing...
Tellyn Posted July 17, 2008 Posted July 17, 2008 I reckon Europe will get this at Christmas while America will get Animal Crossing... Sadly, that'll probably be right. Not that I don't like the look of Wii Music, I've been interested in it since the 2006 tech demo, I'm just not sure it'll give me the same sort of enjoyment and longevity that Animal Crossing will. America got Smash well in advance of us whilst we got Mario Kart and Wii Fit a couple of weeks before them, so they'll probably pull a similar stunt.
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