Religion

[mario114]

You know I can see were you are comming from. I myself don't like to see my faith as a "religion" as I find the whole systems unneccessary, with to many rules put on which don't match the orginal doctirine, in fact Jesus felt the same way about how the religous leaders behaved. Speaking as a Christain I think we should be known for what we are for (showing love and kindness to people), rather than what we are against. It does saden me when I see videos of some US cult like "christains" who hate gays and hate this and that...

[The Bard]

Yeah, I'm with you 100% on that, it's sad that people let their fear and hate of what they don't understand get the better of them. They should just let it be, and find solace in the idea that what they believe is right. That said, I do know some truly inspirational people that are christian, and others who are religious, perhaps religion doesn't best work for everyone. There are some good ideas perpetuated through faith, like charity, love and forgiveness, it's just too bad that the zealots don't see it that way.

[Indigo]

There's no reason science and Christianity can't walk hand in hand. A memorable quote from Socrates comes to mind: "With such signs of forethought and design in living creatures, how can one doubt that they are the works of choice and design?"

 

As we unravel more of the world's mysteries, we are being a given a greater glimpse of the artistry and genius of God. We can observe nature and its workings, its cohesion and efficiency, and we can marvel at God's work.

 

Read this interesting article about Francis S. Collins, the director of the National Human Genome Research Institute and the scientist that cracked the Human Genome. He was an atheist for a long time, but his discoveries have now led him to believe in the existence of God and miracles.

 

Believing in God is not irrational, in fact if anything it the most probable solution. Random chance cannot account for the complex design of DNA. It is statistically and mathematically impossible. In the last 30 years, a number of prominent scientists have attempted to calculate the odds that a free-living, single-celled organism, such as a bacterium, might result by the chance combining of preexistent building blocks. Harold Morowitz calculated the odds as one chance in 10100,000,000,000 (ten to the one hundred billionth power). Sir Fred Hoyle calculated the odds that just the proteins of an amoebae arising by chance as one chance in 1040,000 (ten to the forty thousandth power). The odds calculated by Morowitz and Hoyle are staggering. Think of it this way, the chances of winning the lottery every week of your life from the age of 18 to 99 are better than the odds of a single-celled organism being formed by random chance. The probability of spontaneous generation is about the same as the probability that a tornado sweeping through a junkyard could assemble a 747 from the contents therein. It is impossible. The evidence all points to the unavoidable conclusion that we not the product of chance, but the result of intelligent design.

[Max]

There's no reason science and Christianity can't walk hand in hand. A memorable quote from Socrates comes to mind: "With such signs of forethought and design in living creatures, how can one doubt that they are the works of choice and design?"

 

As we unravel more of the world's mysteries, we are being a given a greater glimpse of the artistry and genius of God. We can observe nature and its workings, its cohesion and efficiency, and we can marvel at God's work.

 

Read this interesting article about Francis S. Collins, the director of the National Human Genome Research Institute and the scientist that cracked the Human Genome. He was an atheist for a long time, but his discoveries have now led him to believe in the existence of God and miracles.

 

Believing in God is not irrational, in fact if anything it the most probable solution. Random chance cannot account for the complex design of DNA. It is statistically and mathematically impossible. In the last 30 years, a number of prominent scientists have attempted to calculate the odds that a free-living, single-celled organism, such as a bacterium, might result by the chance combining of preexistent building blocks. Harold Morowitz calculated the odds as one chance in 10100,000,000,000 (ten to the one hundred billionth power). Sir Fred Hoyle calculated the odds that just the proteins of an amoebae arising by chance as one chance in 1040,000 (ten to the forty thousandth power). The odds calculated by Morowitz and Hoyle are staggering. Think of it this way, the chances of winning the lottery every week of your life from the age of 18 to 99 are better than the odds of a single-celled organism being formed by random chance. The probability of spontaneous generation is about the same as the probability that a tornado sweeping through a junkyard could assemble a 747 from the contents therein. It is impossible. The evidence all points to the unavoidable conclusion that we not the product of chance, but the result of intelligent design.

 

 

 

true, thus most scientist tend to go to "religion" to find an answers for their discovories. but could it be another way of saying i dont know and so "god" is the way out?

[mario114]

There's no reason science and Christianity can't walk hand in hand. A memorable quote from Socrates comes to mind: "With such signs of forethought and design in living creatures, how can one doubt that they are the works of choice and design?"

 

As we unravel more of the world's mysteries, we are being a given a greater glimpse of the artistry and genius of God. We can observe nature and its workings, its cohesion and efficiency, and we can marvel at God's work.

 

Read this interesting article about Francis S. Collins, the director of the National Human Genome Research Institute and the scientist that cracked the Human Genome. He was an atheist for a long time, but his discoveries have now led him to believe in the existence of God and miracles.

 

Believing in God is not irrational, in fact if anything it the most probable solution. Random chance cannot account for the complex design of DNA. It is statistically and mathematically impossible. In the last 30 years, a number of prominent scientists have attempted to calculate the odds that a free-living, single-celled organism, such as a bacterium, might result by the chance combining of preexistent building blocks. Harold Morowitz calculated the odds as one chance in 10100,000,000,000 (ten to the one hundred billionth power). Sir Fred Hoyle calculated the odds that just the proteins of an amoebae arising by chance as one chance in 1040,000 (ten to the forty thousandth power). The odds calculated by Morowitz and Hoyle are staggering. Think of it this way, the chances of winning the lottery every week of your life from the age of 18 to 99 are better than the odds of a single-celled organism being formed by random chance. The probability of spontaneous generation is about the same as the probability that a tornado sweeping through a junkyard could assemble a 747 from the contents therein. It is impossible. The evidence all points to the unavoidable conclusion that we not the product of chance, but the result of intelligent design.

 

I liked the article (I think I may have to buy that guys book), I agree there is no reason to argue, I take the approach that I am no scientist so theres no point in me trying to argue one point over anouther.

[KingJoe]

 

Believing in God is not irrational, in fact if anything it the most probable solution. Random chance cannot account for the complex design of DNA. It is statistically and mathematically impossible. In the last 30 years, a number of prominent scientists have attempted to calculate the odds that a free-living, single-celled organism, such as a bacterium, might result by the chance combining of preexistent building blocks. Harold Morowitz calculated the odds as one chance in 10100,000,000,000 (ten to the one hundred billionth power). Sir Fred Hoyle calculated the odds that just the proteins of an amoebae arising by chance as one chance in 1040,000 (ten to the forty thousandth power). The odds calculated by Morowitz and Hoyle are staggering. Think of it this way, the chances of winning the lottery every week of your life from the age of 18 to 99 are better than the odds of a single-celled organism being formed by random chance. The probability of spontaneous generation is about the same as the probability that a tornado sweeping through a junkyard could assemble a 747 from the contents therein. It is impossible. The evidence all points to the unavoidable conclusion that we not the product of chance, but the result of intelligent design.

That gives us the odds (not sure how they were calculated or how accurate they are...) but it doesn't tell us how the game has been played. To say something is statistically impossible is almost always nonsense (and if you follow quantum theory- always nonsense). The 'building blocks' of life are attracted to each other, so the tornado analogy breaks down there.

I didn't like that argument when it was presented to me in school (good ole Catholic education) , basically, "the exixtence of a watch in a desert (or dessert, one supposes) implies the existence of a watchmaker" not in an infinite desert made of watch components. raaa.

And I'm not an atheist either, I think religion/spirituality falls apart when it tries to do science and vice versa, mostly.

[Fierce_LiNk]

I believe this thread is nothing but trouble in the making.

 

In the past, threads like this may have turned nasty. But, so far, i see no reason to believe why this should happen here. I mean, we're getting some really interesting discussion going, and there's little to no flaming actually going on. I must say, i'm impressed.

 

All this talk of Religion has got me thinking that maybe i should have taken RE as my specialist teaching subject at Uni. I've often thought about it, i kinda regret it, in a way.

 

Whilst i was doing a Science assignment at Uni, about the importence of teaching Science to children, i did learn a few things of my own.

Science (Scientia) is Latin for knowledge.

 

Now, imo, part of being human is to further our knowledge and understanding of everything around us. This could actually fall under both Science and Religious categories. I don't see why people are so quick to fall into the "i dont believe in God, only Science camp" when it actually is a little more complicated than that.

[insaner]

Your a Muslim? Wow. I never thought you were.

Well, I guess that deffinetly proves a lot of the media wrong, with their veiw of "all muslims are evil terroists."

 

Well, I already knew this, as I personally know 2 muslims. One is a nice, timid, intelligent, guy, and the other is a bit of a knob.

This shows that 2 very different people can both be muslims.

 

Ah thats media propaganda for ya...

 

Take Canada for instance, took all Japs into concentration camps during WW2 and all Japs were seen as evil traitors...now they are playing Nintendo and Playstation (both Jap brands)

 

Gosh I would go on hours talking about minorities to commies etc...stereotypes....

 

religion is the source of all evil. simple as.

If God didnt want wars he wouldnt have created himself, thus not creating the universe thus not creating us. simple without wars we wouldnt be here.

I find some parts of religion funny, but i dont know which. Maybe the parts that RE teachers say they saw Jesus in a tree throwing apples at them...i dont know....

 

So religion.. go find a new home.

 

Ps sorry to all religious people.

 

Sorry that is an extremely weak arguement... lets see

 

The 20th century was the WORST century in Human history... lets look at events we know...how did they start: World War 1, was it because of Religion? World War 2, was it because of Religion? Korean War was it because of Religion? Vietnam War was it because of Religion? 170,000,000 Civilian deaths in US-led invasions in the 20th century...millions upon millions dead...hunger/famine/disease whatever you want to call it gosh Religion has nothing to do with it....And this is a century filled with Secularism everywhere....

 

As for Science (I'm surprised nobody ever looks at Islam and Science or intelligent design theories etc etc) Einstein said it best (it was something like this) "Science without Religion is lame"

[Max]

The 20th century was the WORST century in Human history... lets look at events we know...how did they start: World War 1, was it because of Religion? World War 2, was it because of Religion? Korean War was it because of Religion? Vietnam War was it because of Religion? 170,000,000 Civilian deaths in US-led invasions in the 20th century...millions upon millions dead...hunger/famine/disease whatever you want to call it gosh Religion has nothing to do with it....And this is a century filled with Secularism everywhere....

 

As for Science (I'm surprised nobody ever looks at Islam and Science or intelligent design theories etc etc) Einstein said it best (it was something like this) "Science without Religion is lame"

 

but you see, during these wars, religion was used to recruit people and support for the cause of the war. even now, bush says he attacked iraq because god old him to in his dream. Gulf war was also the same where saddam said that he was fighting for islam just like UBL is claiming. the examples go on and on.

 

 

That gives us the odds (not sure how they were calculated or how accurate they are...) but it doesn't tell us how the game has been played. To say something is statistically impossible is almost always nonsense (and if you follow quantum theory- always nonsense). The 'building blocks' of life are attracted to each other, so the tornado analogy breaks down there.

I didn't like that argument when it was presented to me in school (good ole Catholic education) , basically, "the exixtence of a watch in a desert (or dessert, one supposes) implies the existence of a watchmaker" not in an infinite desert made of watch components. raaa.

And I'm not an atheist either, I think religion/spirituality falls apart when it tries to do science and vice versa, mostly.

 

I ask you a question. if a plane was to explode in mid air and all the peices fall down. Through probability, the screws all hit the right angles and metal sheets bend in correct shapes and there you have it, a BMW X5 ouside your house. what are the chances of that happeneing? believe me i tried arguing for probability for many years and failed coz its not ligical. that chances of a screw dalling in the correct angle and screw it self in due to the rotation caused by the bounce itself is like 0.001%, so whats the robability of it happening 100 times and whats the probability that you do get an X5 and not a.... VW golf?

 

is it possible? can i quit my job and studies and wait for metal peices to fall from the sky and i get to own my own car?

[The Bard]

The 20th century was the WORST century in Human history... lets look at events we know...how did they start: World War 1, was it because of Religion? World War 2, was it because of Religion? Korean War was it because of Religion? Vietnam War was it because of Religion? 170,000,000 Civilian deaths in US-led invasions in the 20th century...millions upon millions dead...hunger/famine/disease whatever you want to call it gosh Religion has nothing to do with it....And this is a century filled with Secularism everywhere....

 

As for Science (I'm surprised nobody ever looks at Islam and Science or intelligent design theories etc etc) Einstein said it best (it was something like this) "Science without Religion is lame"

 

You what? War is fought for a just cause to prevent things like the holocause and gulag slaughters, a few centuries ago everyone would have turned a blind eye to such things, now look back in time to the salem witch trials, mass burnings in the middle ages, the black plague, slavery, segregation and many other horrors and say it again with a straight face.

 

Also, I really do agree with Indigo, god is probably the cause, but not any god that we know of I don't think, but either way, its still guesswork. Maybe I'm a simpleton, but the more I see of nature and of science, the more it seems to point to a sentient creator. Either way, the gods of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are not plausible in the least, because of what they stand for.

[Haden]

the black plague

 

Yeh because um thats religions fault to!

 

Also authorties like the Pope in certian cases in the early modern period and middle ages stopped yes stopped anti semitism getting out of hand. Wheras when the 19th century killed off God people had nothing to hold them back and Fascism and Communism appeared.

[The Bard]

Yeh because um thats religions fault to!

 

Also authorties like the Pope in certian cases in the early modern period and middle ages stopped yes stopped anti semitism getting out of hand. Wheras when the 19th century killed off God people had nothing to hold them back and Fascism and Communism appeared.

 

Thats not what I said, that guy said that the 20th century was the worst in history, I was just giving my opinion, I never said religion caused the black plague, learn to read.

[insaner]

religion is the source of all evil. simple as.

If God didnt want wars he wouldnt have created himself, thus not creating the universe thus not creating us. simple without wars we wouldnt be here.

I find some parts of religion funny, but i dont know which. Maybe the parts that RE teachers say they saw Jesus in a tree throwing apples at them...i dont know....

 

So religion.. go find a new home.

 

Ps sorry to all religious people.

 

but you see, during these wars, religion was used to recruit people and support for the cause of the war. even now, bush says he attacked iraq because god old him to in his dream. Gulf war was also the same where saddam said that he was fighting for islam just like UBL is claiming. the examples go on and on.

 

Gulf War had nothing to do with Religion, if it was why would Saudi Arabia the holiest land of Islam support the US to fight Iraq, another Islamic country? Iraq wanted to invade Kuwait (another Islamic country) for Oil and land, and the US who was once allied with Iraq decided to invade Iraq to defend Kuwait.

 

I highly doubt that 'god' told Bush to invade so he did (he said it to please the evanglist lobbies especially), we all know how it went (WMD's etc) don't blame Religion for the war in Iraq, in fact we now have facts that Iraq had nothing to do with 911! Leaders always try to please the clerics/priests, its part of being politics!

 

Religion was not used to start World Wars, Are we also forgetting about Nationalism? Thats a big one right there. How about the Cold War, Capitalism/Communism? I don't mean to be offensive to anyone but how about Darwinism (think about guys like Hitler, superior race ideologies, survival of the fittest etc)?

 

The source of all evil (even if you don't believe in religion)? I'm sure Greed and (the want/need of) Power have alot to do with it etc. We live in a world with Corporations who we all know are greedy regardless. Its not necessarily the people who run it, its what a Corporation is...an imaginary individual with rights and freedoms that is taxed like an individual...

 

Look at Africa? The perfect example to look at how the world is...was it Religion that made the continent as it is now? Sure you can look at whats happening in Darfur, two Muslim tribes fighting each other, over a million dead does it have anything to do with Religion? Absolutely not in fact the cause of the war is tribal! One tribe has a nose shape that the other doesnt (look into it, its ridiculous! It sounds funny, But people are dying!) etc.

 

So please when people start saying Religion is the source of evil and start using guys like UBL as part of an excuse really need to wake up and learn something for once, even if you have no faith at all, there are MORE important issues to look at it. We are too comfortable these days... I can admit that....

[Athriller]

 

 

Um, I'm sure that wasn't the case, autopsies were forbidden etc, it was a long time before even the vital organ and circulation systems were properly identified and explained. Either way, anything good that has come out of religion is a meagre defence at best, at least in my eyes.

 

 

 

Wait, what? Autopsies were banned? Considering they have been done for millenia, I find this hard to believe. Wikipedia nor google show anything to back that up either.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Razi

 

Al-Razi was just one man, yet using religious practice and etiquette his work had a profound influence over the world.

 

 

but you see, during these wars, religion was used to recruit people and support for the cause of the war. even now, bush says he attacked iraq because god old him to in his dream. Gulf war was also the same where saddam said that he was fighting for islam just like UBL is claiming. the examples go on and on.

 

 

 

But religion was not at all at the root of the problem. War was inevitable, the leaders just used cunning tactics to win more support. Whether they did that or not would have not changed the final result of war.

 

 

Either way, the gods of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are not plausible in the least, because of what they stand for.

 

What you think they stand for, and what they actually stand for, are two completely different things. Just bare that in mind.

 

 

Thats not what I said, that guy said that the 20th century was the worst in history, I was just giving my opinion, I never said religion caused the black plague, learn to read.

 

But that's ultimately irrelevant, because the discussion is about the catastrophies that have ocurred through time either through religious or secular faults. Things like the black plague were nasty, but irrelevant.

[Eenuh]

Wait, what? Autopsies were banned? Considering they have been done for millenia, I find this hard to believe. Wikipedia nor google show anything to back that up either.

 

Actually, yes, autopsies were banned by the Church. They had to be done in secret. I wouldn't know where to look this up, but I remember learning about this in school. It had something to do with the Church not wanting the bodies of dead people to be used for science or something. Plus of course the Church having some kind of fear back then that science might prove them wrong on things.

[The Bard]

What you think they stand for, and what they actually stand for, are two completely different things. Just bare that in mind.

 

But that's ultimately irrelevant, because the discussion is about the catastrophies that have ocurred through time either through religious or secular faults. Things like the black plague were nasty, but irrelevant.

 

What I think they stand for? I think the Quran and Bible explain pretty well what they stand for mate.

 

And Irrelevant it may be, but I was just pointing out that the 20th century wasn't all that catastrophic when held in comparison to the past.

 

And yes, autopsies were banned by the church, it's a well documented fact.

[insaner]

 

You what? War is fought for a just cause to prevent things like the holocause and gulag slaughters, a few centuries ago everyone would have turned a blind eye to such things, now look back in time to the salem witch trials, mass burnings in the middle ages, the black plague, slavery, segregation and many other horrors and say it again with a straight face.

 

Also, I really do agree with Indigo, god is probably the cause, but not any god that we know of I don't think, but either way, its still guesswork. Maybe I'm a simpleton, but the more I see of nature and of science, the more it seems to point to a sentient creator. Either way, the gods of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are not plausible in the least, because of what they stand for.

 

What are you saying?

 

Black Plague, Slavery to be Religions fault? What in the world?

 

You are trying to ignore the point that the 20th century was the worst which had nothing to do with Religion, and don't give me excuses like the Israel-Arab conflict, it was all about Nationalistic pride (Arab League etc) and Land.

 

Gosh people are so funny, why can't you admit that humanity is at fault of many things? Arrogance, Pride, Greed, Ignorance, Hate etc etc Perfect example is the environment, is it 'god' that is destroying the environment or man?

[Athriller]

 

What I think they stand for? I think the Quran and Bible explain pretty well what they stand for mate.

 

 

Intepretations can be misleading. It's why some people think nietzsche's a Nazi.

 

Actually, yes, autopsies were banned by the Church. They had to be done in secret. I wouldn't know where to look this up, but I remember learning about this in school. It had something to do with the Church not wanting the bodies of dead people to be used for science or something. Plus of course the Church having some kind of fear back then that science might prove them wrong on things.

 

Ok, cheers. I'll have to look into this more.

[insaner]

When it comes to science when most of Europe was in the dark ages, the world from Spain to India was vast in scientific thought. Baghdad (house of wisdom) and Cordoba was one of the most influential cities in the world at time. While they were part of the Islamic civilization, scientific thought began to flourish big time.

 

Discovery of earth being round (its always Columbus who gets credit never the Greeks or the Muslim civilizations), the breakthroughs in medicine from the modern day method to eye surgery, studies in astronomy/physics/mathematics/alchemy they were all there etc. Alot of knowledge was lost in Cordoba because of civil conflicts and then the reconquesta.

 

Funny thing is while the civilization learned from others too like the Greeks (greek knowledge was lost in the 5th century, and later found by Jews and Muslims in the 9th), alot of science came from the Qur'an, a religious book (from the 7th century). Words like falak in the book were used in believing that the earth was not flat, to the origins of life in water, to what we call now the big bang theory etc etc

 

Hindus for example took mathematics/algebra to a whole new level.

 

Point is Science was a problem in parts the West. Don't start blaming religion as a whole as if its anti-science. Like I mentioned before, Einstein said it best "Science without Religion is lame".

 

Anyway I'm out.

[The fish]

There's no reason science and Christianity can't walk hand in hand. A memorable quote from Socrates comes to mind: "With such signs of forethought and design in living creatures, how can one doubt that they are the works of choice and design?"

 

Simple really.

Science is about fact, logic, and evidence.

These are 3 things religion tends to lack.

 

Oh, and if humans had tenticles, 8 legs, 9 fingers on each of 3 hands, and 4 eyes, we would still see it as "intenligent design".

[Rick Dangerous]

Simple really.

Science is about fact, logic, and evidence.

These are 3 things religion tends to lack.

 

Oh, and if humans had tenticles, 8 legs, 9 fingers on each of 3 hands, and 4 eyes, we would still see it as "intenligent design".

 

Science is not 'fact' its just the mostly likely outcome. Its constantly evolving. What was scientific 'fact' 100 years ago is not 'fact' today. Im not bashing science, its all just theories to be disproved and proved though.

[somme]

Generally, if it can futher their influence, a religion likes something.

The exeption is that some homophobic christians don't like the computer because it was made by a gay guy...

 

EDIT:got the pic:

 

I just wanna see what they printed that banner from...

[khilafah]

Does anybody think we are gonna see a clash of civilisations? I think since the collapse of Communism, Islam is now the biggest threat to capitalism

 

I think the west is dead afraid of seeing what will happen once there propped up dictators and tyrants are removed.

[BlueStar]

Science is not 'fact' its just the mostly likely outcome. Its constantly evolving. What was scientific 'fact' 100 years ago is not 'fact' today. Im not bashing science, its all just theories to be disproved and proved though.

 

Which is an advantage science has over religion - it changes it's beliefs based on the evidence, while religion has to change the evidence based on belief.

 

My contribution to my thread is just to say that, if I were God, I wouldn't be anywhere near as pissed off at people questioning my existence as I would be at people professing to speak for me and tell others what I think and want.

 

Oh, and ever noticed that no-one says they disagree with God, even though there's hundreds of different interpretations of "Gods Word" even within each faith? Why is that, do you think? Could it be that, rather than moulding their views around the Bible, The Koran, the teachings of jesus or whatever, people mould their religion around their existing views to give them a God which is essentially their own personalised pokemon to fight their battles with and justify their views in their mind?

[dabookerman]

The Pope quoted someone from the 13th century

 

Muslims are rioting now

 

lol