Boss Keys - Zelda dungeon video analysis

[Rummy]

Oh yeah I wasn't suggesting bring out a new one every year, just more a) was MM a good experiment and b) should Nintendo try something similar again?

 

It's looking more and more like we're going to be getting Zelda games as the console is on its way out so a midway point game that is smaller but more unique (although BotW clearly is itself unique) might be a good way to keep things ticking over. Maybe even have a different team working on it akin to what happens with COD (yes yes you hate Call of Duty).

 

Certainly an interesting idea. I think MM worked so well because they were re-using assets it made them have to think more about how to really make the game different - and they really did. I wouldn't mind seeing a bit more of that on occasion, but as long as it doesn't become a regular occurrence to prevent burnout/franchise fatigue and sub-par offerings.

 

I'd really still like to see them try and remake a 2D game in 3D though(so like maybe a 3D LttP).

[Jonnas]

That MM video is a good one, and encapsulates well what I like about many dungeons in OoT as well: how you must think about the dungeon's architecture in order to solve it.

 

Also, I know he's focusing on the dungeons for a "level design" video, but I do hope he discusses elements outside of dungeons at some point. Not necessarily in Boss Keys, but maybe if/when he focuses on the design of a single game (such as Majora's Mask or Wind Waker, where the forte lies outside of the dungeons).

 

Certainly an interesting idea. I think MM worked so well because they were re-using assets it made them have to think more about how to really make the game different - and they really did.

 

Sounds more like they already had the "Groundhog Loop" idea from the beginning, and reusing assets was the way to meet the short deadline. In other words, neither the 3-day system nor the dungeon design/pacing were solutions to that particular limitation.

 

Now, the re-use of assets probably lead into the idea of Termina being an alternate universe from Hyrule. Maybe even allowed for a larger amount of NPCs than originally intended (like Koume&Kotake in the swamp).

 

(so like maybe a 3D LttP).

 

So... Ocarina of Time, then?

[Rummy]

That MM video is a good one, and encapsulates well what I like about many dungeons in OoT as well: how you must think about the dungeon's architecture in order to solve it.

 

Also, I know he's focusing on the dungeons for a "level design" video, but I do hope he discusses elements outside of dungeons at some point. Not necessarily in Boss Keys, but maybe if/when he focuses on the design of a single game (such as Majora's Mask or Wind Waker, where the forte lies outside of the dungeons).

 

Sounds more like they already had the "Groundhog Loop" idea from the beginning, and reusing assets was the way to meet the short deadline. In other words, neither the 3-day system nor the dungeon design/pacing were solutions to that particular limitation.

 

Now, the re-use of assets probably lead into the idea of Termina being an alternate universe from Hyrule. Maybe even allowed for a larger amount of NPCs than originally intended (like Koume&Kotake in the swamp).

 

What I fouind interesting about his MM analysis is the general actual lack of keys! As said I do wish The Ikana Well got some focus too though. I think MM on the whole seemed less 'dungeony' and more like a world in some ways, which added to its charm. Also even with the 'Groundhog Loop' as you mention I love the lengths they went to to really squeeze in pretty much every asset - all those NPCs from OoT brought to greater life in this strange new world! Was anyone even missing outside of the Kokiri?? Even Poe guy was in there!

 

So... Ocarina of Time, then?

 

Haha, I'm glad you put it like that as I recall when playing I just sometimes couldn't get over how similar it was structurally like(3 pendants, get master sword, go to dark version of world, do dungeons in order in locations near previous etc). However what I ACTUALLY want to see is like...LttP realised in 3D. That whole world, Link's house, Hyrule Castle and the secret passage, Aganhim, The Church etcetc but in a 3D style like OoT(or maybe WW, I think vibrant/cartoony would work better). It'd take a lot of work to '3D'ify it - but I'd love it and I imagine if done well it'd sell pretty good off its LttP basis too.

[Jonnas]

What I fouind interesting about his MM analysis is the general actual lack of keys! As said I do wish The Ikana Well got some focus too though. I think MM on the whole seemed less 'dungeony' and more like a world in some ways, which added to its charm. Also even with the 'Groundhog Loop' as you mention I love the lengths they went to to really squeeze in pretty much every asset - all those NPCs from OoT brought to greater life in this strange new world! Was anyone even missing outside of the Kokiri?? Even Poe guy was in there!

 

I think this guy was missing, though I'm not completely sure. Impa & Rauru were also missing, if you count them.

 

And nevermind the Poe guy, the Desert Salesman is the most obscure NPC (and yes, he's also in MM).

 

Haha, I'm glad you put it like that as I recall when playing I just sometimes couldn't get over how similar it was structurally like(3 pendants, get master sword, go to dark version of world, do dungeons in order in locations near previous etc). However what I ACTUALLY want to see is like...LttP realised in 3D. That whole world, Link's house, Hyrule Castle and the secret passage, Aganhim, The Church etcetc but in a 3D style like OoT(or maybe WW, I think vibrant/cartoony would work better). It'd take a lot of work to '3D'ify it - but I'd love it and I imagine if done well it'd sell pretty good off its LttP basis too.

 

That'd be harder. The map in LttP was made to be seen from an overhead perspective. In 3D, I imagine many paths that were supposed to be easy to see, now wouldn't be, and stuff that you weren't supposed to see are now visible (for example, you'd be able to see Death Mountain and Hyrule Castle from very far away). The entire thing would have to be redesigned, including the dungeons (hence, OoT ).

 

That said, I'd be up to seeing individual elements from that game in 3D (such as Agahnim. I know he's just Ganondorf in different clothes, but still).

[Rummy]

I think this guy was missing, though I'm not completely sure. Impa & Rauru were also missing, if you count them.

 

And nevermind the Poe guy, the Desert Salesman is the most obscure NPC (and yes, he's also in MM).

 

Ha! I actually thought of that guy as I posted! Unless I'm mistaken doesn't he just run the item shop when fisher/curiosity man is running his shop? I couldn't think who else would have replaced him. I wasn't counting any of the sages, though I've obvs come to realise that Lulu was rather Ruto-esque. Saria, Darunia, Nabooru, Rauru and Impa would all have been missing - but it's sort of to be expected with them being sages and all.

 

Ofc we should all know the desert salesman in his MM form, though I can understand if some don't as he was somewhat arguably missable.

 

That'd be harder. The map in LttP was made to be seen from an overhead perspective. In 3D, I imagine many paths that were supposed to be easy to see, now wouldn't be, and stuff that you weren't supposed to see are now visible (for example, you'd be able to see Death Mountain and Hyrule Castle from very far away). The entire thing would have to be redesigned, including the dungeons (hence, OoT ).

 

That said, I'd be up to seeing individual elements from that game in 3D (such as Agahnim. I know he's just Ganondorf in different clothes, but still).

 

True it'd be harder but surely not impossible? The whole map/world and even dungeons would need some sorts of re-working yes - though I'd be happy if they could try and stay as close to original ideas/format as possible. I see no problem in being able to see Hyrule Castle from far away, nor Death Mountain - the game limits your progress via items generally.

 

I did get thinking after my post about things like Pegasus Boots etc - harder when you've got 360 degrees as opposed to 4 cardinals. There's certain ways to get around it all, I'm sure! Other than that what things specifically wouldn't work? Not saying everything WOULD, just haven't thought enough to consider anything so far that wouldn't.

[Jonnas]

Ha! I actually thought of that guy as I posted! Unless I'm mistaken doesn't he just run the item shop when fisher/curiosity man is running his shop? I couldn't think who else would have replaced him.

 

Maybe. What you say rings a bell, but I'm not sure. I only played the game once, and on the VC.

 

I wasn't counting any of the sages, though I've obvs come to realise that Lulu was rather Ruto-esque. Saria, Darunia, Nabooru, Rauru and Impa would all have been missing - but it's sort of to be expected with them being sages and all.

 

I'm counting the characters that reuse models/assets. So, Lulu is Ruto, just like Cremia&Romani are Malon, and if Ruto was reused, the other sages are fair game for scrutiny. I didn't mention Nabooru or Darunia, because I thought Nabooru was in the pirate fortress, and I could swear Darmani was a grey Darunia (a quick image search just proved me wrong on that last one)

 

At any rate, I'm also wondering if the fat Zora at the inn counts as King Zora. If not, there's another non-returnee.

 

True it'd be harder but surely not impossible? The whole map/world and even dungeons would need some sorts of re-working yes - though I'd be happy if they could try and stay as close to original ideas/format as possible. I see no problem in being able to see Hyrule Castle from far away, nor Death Mountain - the game limits your progress via items generally.

 

I did get thinking after my post about things like Pegasus Boots etc - harder when you've got 360 degrees as opposed to 4 cardinals. There's certain ways to get around it all, I'm sure! Other than that what things specifically wouldn't work? Not saying everything WOULD, just haven't thought enough to consider anything so far that wouldn't.

 

The pegasus boots wouldn't be that hard, I think. Just have it run in a straight line in whatever direction you're facing.

 

As for big changes... off the top of my head:

 

-The biggest one is the hookshot. Aiming for different altitudes completely changes how you navigate the world;

-Due to Z-targeting, fights in conveyor belts need to be reworked;

-Aiming the Arrows, Boomerang and Ice&Fire rods is now much easier;

-Certain enemies, such as the River Zoras (Zolas) and Wizzrobes, only work as they do in overhead view;

-Most bosses would work the same in 3D, but not Moldorm. Think to the Puppet Ganon fight in WW where he turns into a snake to see how different it would be.

 

The solution would be to make a game where Link can't aim up, and all of his items only work at whatever altitude he's in. Furthermore, the camera angle would have to be really good to make all of it intuitive. I suppose that's the only way to make LttP in 3D without changing 80% of the game.

[Rummy]

I'm counting the characters that reuse models/assets. So, Lulu is Ruto, just like Cremia&Romani are Malon, and if Ruto was reused, the other sages are fair game for scrutiny. I didn't mention Nabooru or Darunia, because I thought Nabooru was in the pirate fortress, and I could swear Darmani was a grey Darunia (a quick image search just proved me wrong on that last one)

 

Obvs getting off the point, but maybe Ruto/Lulu's just a certain kind of female Zora? Could be excused on that front if you consider how similar many others look.

At any rate, I'm also wondering if the fat Zora at the inn counts as King Zora. If not, there's another non-returnee.

 

I don't think he's quite similar enough, but a bloody good point! Did not consider King Zora! Turns out I was wrong about the guy in the shop - there IS a 'part-time employee' which I think has OoT parallels, but it isn't the guy you posted! Intrigued now.

EDIT: I thought I forgot Medi/Biggoron, totes recall them now.

 

 

The pegasus boots wouldn't be that hard, I think. Just have it run in a straight line in whatever direction you're facing.

 

I'll be honest I had exactly one point of thinking when I came up with this - and it was that of the Dark Palace when you need to run across the 3-wide floor that disintegrates(same room as Big Chest, even though it's not accessible on this path) - with a 360 degree aspect of movement I wondered how easy it'd be for someone to easily fall off said bridge into the abyss especially with the pressure against them(thinking back to MM on the moon as a Goron when I thought I needed to steer a lot more).

 

EDIT: Don't know why I have so many answers for everything else and not this. Just thought you can simply fully or partially boundary the thing - stops going mad off the edge. Of course, thinking even of that, I've just realised how much of a '2D puzzle' it is - with a 3D perspective you won't see the back of the bridge falling behind you as in LttP. Of course it's something again re-creatable with some thinking; maybe a time crystal switch+barrier on the other end.

 

As for big changes... off the top of my head:

 

-The biggest one is the hookshot. Aiming for different altitudes completely changes how you navigate the world;

-Due to Z-targeting, fights in conveyor belts need to be reworked;

-Aiming the Arrows, Boomerang and Ice&Fire rods is now much easier;

-Certain enemies, such as the River Zoras (Zolas) and Wizzrobes, only work as they do in overhead view;

-Most bosses would work the same in 3D, but not Moldorm. Think to the Puppet Ganon fight in WW where he turns into a snake to see how different it would be.

 

The solution would be to make a game where Link can't aim up, and all of his items only work at whatever altitude he's in. Furthermore, the camera angle would have to be really good to make all of it intuitive. I suppose that's the only way to make LttP in 3D without changing 80% of the game.

 

-Having different altitudes isn't a big deal for hookshotting, is it? I mean going from LttP to 3D(rather than the other way round) you can just make them cosmetically at different levels but still make it work close to the original. Just don't make it much of an item to get you to places you couldn't have gotten to otherwise(already quite a thing in OoT/MM due to need 'hookshot suitable' surfaces)

-Did NOT consider Z-targeting and the conveyor belts. In fact I didn't consider Z-targetting at all for something where you've had to free-aim, mostly. Hmm.

-Is it? I mean again with 2D you've only got 4 cardinal directions, with 3D you've got a whole sphere around you - almost like shooting keese out of the air(actually makes me think this would be why Z-targetting originated in the 3D games, to avoid the hassle of free-aiming in such a landscape).

-Again, surely these can be re-worked somehow? Make the river zora's have an arced water/fireball? So they can aim from lower and spit up in an arc that hits you. They may be more 'killable' in a 3D making though(just thinking how in LttP you can't aim 'down' at a river when you've passing by on shore).

-Very good point. Couldn't you work some 3D aspect of it, as you say - there's already an analogue to puppet Gannon! Though tbh that is FAR too tricky a fight to have for the third temple in the game :p

 

I'm not saying the game wouldn't need differences - but why can't you craft it in a 3D world and keep as much as possible? I think 80% is an overestimation. I think it could certainly be done.

 

 

(may split these posts out into an actual topic on it soon btw)

Edited September 1, 2016 by Rummy

[Glen-i]

The pegasus boots wouldn't be that hard, I think. Just have it run in a straight line in whatever direction you're facing.

 

You know, Hyrule Warriors has shown me that maybe the Pegasus Boots could be used for more than just running.

It revolves around using the extra speed your legs get to do all sorts of kicking combos.

 

It's quite inspired. Not trying to make a point for this conversation here really, just wanted to point it out.

[Jonnas]

I'll be honest I had exactly one point of thinking when I came up with this - and it was that of the Dark Palace when you need to run across the 3-wide floor that disintegrates(same room as Big Chest, even though it's not accessible on this path) - with a 360 degree aspect of movement I wondered how easy it'd be for someone to easily fall off said bridge into the abyss especially with the pressure against them(thinking back to MM on the moon as a Goron when I thought I needed to steer a lot more).

 

I think I know which bridge you mean, and I don't think it's much of a change. Like you said, the Goron levels in MM already do something similar.

 

-Having different altitudes isn't a big deal for hookshotting, is it? I mean going from LttP to 3D(rather than the other way round) you can just make them cosmetically at different levels but still make it work close to the original. Just don't make it much of an item to get you to places you couldn't have gotten to otherwise(already quite a thing in OoT/MM due to need 'hookshot suitable' surfaces)

 

LttP (as well as most 2D Zeldas) is designed around horizontal planes ("layers", if you will) that function as floors. Link (as well as enemies) can't interact with other layers. You can only move between layers in specific spots designed to allow you to do that (for example, hopping off a "fenceless" cliff). Even when you go up a flight of stairs, you can't stay still between floors, it's one layer or the other. 3D games with open spaces work differently, because the physics engine allows characters and objects to move around the Z-axis (a.k.a. change altitude) freely. It's far less limited than LttP's layer-based system.

 

The big deal comes with how the player perceives this freedom of movement. Ocarina of Time's Hookshot could be latched onto various innocuous surfaces such as roofs, trees and treasure chests, meaning that it promised a lot of freedom of movement (and delivered). The one in LttP also allows you to latch onto innocuous spots (like wooden stakes), meaning that, if unchanged, it would now promise the same freedom of movement. If it doesn't deliver, you're left with an item that, rather than increasing movement freedom, instead highlights its limitations (in other words, the player suddenly realises you can't move around the Z-axis freely).

 

Think of TP's clawshot, and how it only latched onto specific targets. It never makes one wonder if we could reach that ledge: if there's no target, you can't, end of. It's no wonder one of the chief complaints in TP was how uninteresting the overworld was, it lacked subtleties like these.

 

So yeah, if we want this hypothetical 3D LttP to live up to the original, the Hookshot would require a re-haul, either to itself, or to the game's world.

 

-Is it? I mean again with 2D you've only got 4 cardinal directions, with 3D you've got a whole sphere around you - almost like shooting keese out of the air(actually makes me think this would be why Z-targetting originated in the 3D games, to avoid the hassle of free-aiming in such a landscape).

-Again, surely these can be re-worked somehow? Make the river zora's have an arced water/fireball? So they can aim from lower and spit up in an arc that hits you. They may be more 'killable' in a 3D making though(just thinking how in LttP you can't aim 'down' at a river when you've passing by on shore).

-Very good point. Couldn't you work some 3D aspect of it, as you say - there's already an analogue to puppet Gannon! Though tbh that is FAR too tricky a fight to have for the third temple in the game :p

 

My original point is that these things would have to be changed considerably in 3D, as the bows and rods are easier to use and certain enemies/bosses are wildly different.

 

So yes, feasible, and possibly not too hard to change, but the end result would be a very different experience, is what I meant.

 

I'm not saying the game wouldn't need differences - but why can't you craft it in a 3D world and keep as much as possible? I think 80% is an overestimation. I think it could certainly be done.

 

Between enemies, bosses, items and the map/landscapes, I do think it's easier to name what wouldn't be changed, rather than what would.

 

(may split these posts out into an actual topic on it soon btw)

 

(I don't think we need a separate thread, this is the best one we have for discussing game design in the Zelda series)

[Hero-of-Time]

New episode is out. It features my two worst 2D Zelda games, Ages and Seasons.

 

[Ronnie]

What! Ages and Seasons were great! The video reminds me how great and creative the dungeons were too.

[Jonnas]

The video disappointed me somewhat, as half of it was spent talking general series design, rather than specific aspects about the Oracles. Then he described the 16 dungeons in pretty broad terms (for example, he glossed over the use of puzzle rooms in Oracle of Ages. That's a pretty significant design decision, and he barely mentioned it).

 

So, I guess that's the first video in the series that disappointed me.

 

Also, the worst 2D Zelda is clearly LttP

[Glen-i]

Also, the worst 2D Zelda is clearly LttP

 

Everyone, please note the emoticon. He's joking! Please don't kill him!

Out of the 2D games, Oracles had some of the best items. Especially Seasons, creator of the Roc's Cape, Magic Boomerang and the wonderful Magnetic Gloves!

[Jonnas]

Everyone, please note the emoticon. He's joking! Please don't kill him!

 

Though I must admit that, as I once said, LttP really was surpassed by future 2D Zeldas one way or the other (though I haven't played LBW yet, I will admit).

 

It's a pretty high bar, and even if I describe it as "the least good" of the modern 2D Zeldas, it still sounds needlessly harsh. It's still better than some 3D Zeldas, and miles ahead of the NES games.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Jonnas

[Rummy]

The video disappointed me somewhat, as half of it was spent talking general series design, rather than specific aspects about the Oracles. Then he described the 16 dungeons in pretty broad terms (for example, he glossed over the use of puzzle rooms in Oracle of Ages. That's a pretty significant design decision, and he barely mentioned it).

 

So, I guess that's the first video in the series that disappointed me.

 

Also, the worst 2D Zelda is clearly LttP

 

Certainly found myself agreeing. I still enjoyed the video as it was - but really it seemed more to be a video about his new dungeon analysis layout schematic rather than enough about the Oracles.

 

Given the sheer breadth of stuff the Oracles brought to the series together(the link ins, items, story, action-er 'vs' puzzle-er approach) and items I would have liked a lot more focus on some of that really. Thought there was actually going to be a second episode follow-up to this with more actual focus on the games.

 

Also, dare I ask, why LttP would be the worst? I don't think it offers particularly better or worse than LA at a minimum.

[Glen-i]

Though I must admit that, as I once said, LttP really was surpassed by future 2D Zeldas one way or the other (though I haven't played LBW yet, I will admit).

 

It's a pretty high bar, and even if I describe it as "the least good" of the modern 2D Zeldas, it still sounds needlessly harsh. It's still better than some 3D Zeldas, and miles ahead of the NES games.

 

To be fair, I completely agree with you, it's just Lttp is set on such a high pedestal, I couldn't resist typing that sentence.

 

Lttp has definitely got some issues that can be annoying. Not to mention that some of the optional items are absolutely worthless. (Honestly, who actually uses the Magic Cape?)

[Jonnas]

Also, dare I ask, why LttP would be the worst? I don't think it offers particularly better or worse than LA at a minimum.

 

It feels dated in a few ways. My main gripe is Link's movement, which feels more sluggish in LttP, and his sword being super short at first doesn't help. Future Zeldas would make diagonal movement easier, walking became faster, and went on to include a Roc's Feather/Cape for further ease of movement.

 

Another thing that bothers me is that the map clearly tells you there's a set order to beat the dungeons, which defeats the purpose of having a barebones plot in an open world. Oracle of Seasons was a better execution of the "explore the world as you'd like" concept, and to be fair, it's only because it doesn't have blinking numbers.

 

Finally, there are other design decisions that I can't ignore. Turtle Rock and Misery Mire are blocked off by otherwise-optional medallions, and if you never found them, tough luck, the game isn't giving you clues. The boss in Turtle Rock needs to be defeated with the Ice Rod, an item that was optional up until that point (I mean, would it be hard to include an Ice Rod-only obstacle at the beginning of the dungeon? They did it with a medallion, but not the item you actually need to fight the boss...)

 

I still thought it was a pretty good game, but only after I started to faff around as I played it. By comparison, LA feels better designed (without feeling too linear), more fun to control, and had a much better plot.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Jonnas

[Glen-i]

The boss in Turtle Rock needs to be defeated with the Ice Rod, an item that was optional up until that point (I mean, would it be hard to include an Ice Rod-only obstacle at the beginning of the dungeon? They did it with a medallion, but not the item you actually need to fight the boss...)

 

Yeah, this is always a surprising oversight, you could leave yourself in an unwinnable situation if...

 

- You don't have the Ice Rod

- You run out of magic

 

That kind of thing rarely happens in a Zelda game, although Zelda 1 pulls that same stunt with Ganon and the Silver Arrows, an item you could easily miss, given the immense size of that dungeon.

[Rummy]

I personally never noticed those holes - but they are quite glaring but then again; you can't progress so surely you'll find some help somewhere(fortune teller maybe?). I recall finding the ice rod and medallions simply exploring/thinking they were places I could go look. You're quite handheld to Ether, and you can iirc see the Bombos stone/tablet, maybe Quake's missable but you'd probably get it by wondering what's up there in the dark world as I did.

As for running out of magic - isn't it possibly just the same as constantly dying/running out of ammo on an old boss? You go off and stock up before coming back!

[Glen-i]

As for running out of magic - isn't it possibly just the same as constantly dying/running out of ammo on an old boss? You go off and stock up before coming back!

 

Can you actually use the Magic Mirror in a boss room?

I've never tried it...

 

If that doesn't work than there's absolutely no way for you to beat the Turtle Rock boss if you run out of magic and don't have any potions. Not quite the same as just running out of health. That's not an unwinnable situation, you just lose. There's a difference.

[Jonnas]

I personally never noticed those holes - but they are quite glaring but then again; you can't progress so surely you'll find some help somewhere(fortune teller maybe?). I recall finding the ice rod and medallions simply exploring/thinking they were places I could go look. You're quite handheld to Ether, and you can iirc see the Bombos stone/tablet, maybe Quake's missable but you'd probably get it by wondering what's up there in the dark world as I did.

As for running out of magic - isn't it possibly just the same as constantly dying/running out of ammo on an old boss? You go off and stock up before coming back!

 

That's the one I missed the first time I played the game. I reached Turtle Rock, saw a medallion symbol I didn't recognize, and didn't know of any other tablets. No hint whatsoever as to where it could be.

 

The Ice Rod is easy to find, and it's hinted at very early on, but the fact that it is suddenly required on a boss was still pretty jarring. I thought for sure there was an alternate way to defeat him, but apparently not. That isn't just inelegant design, it's a significant flaw, to get stuck on the end boss of such a long gauntlet. Like I said, requiring the Ice Rod (rather than the Quake Medallion) to enter the dungeon would have sufficed.

 

And like you say, they can be found if one explores and/or faffs around, rather than power through the main quest. Not necessarily a bad thing (Wind Waker does something similar), but if an optional item suddenly becomes mandatory, they should at least put that lock at an accessible spot in the game, and the boss of the hardest dungeon in the game is certainly not that spot.

 

For example, in Ocarina of Time, Din's Fire is required to beat the Shadow Temple, but it's also required to enter it, and that entrance isn't too hard to reach. It's still pretty sudden, honestly, but at least the lock is at the entrance.

 

To address the other point, I think you can still attack the heads at close-range if you run out of magic, so at least that's not an issue (and it's a clever workaround, too). You still need the Ice Rod, though

[EEVILMURRAY]

They've run out of remakes after all

I'm surprised that they haven't given Link's Awakening/Oracle games full 3D remakes, looking somewhat like Link Between Worlds.

The video disappointed me somewhat, as half of it was spent talking general series design, rather than specific aspects about the Oracles. Then he described the 16 dungeons in pretty broad terms (for example, he glossed over the use of puzzle rooms in Oracle of Ages. That's a pretty significant design decision, and he barely mentioned it).

 

So, I guess that's the first video in the series that disappointed me.

I agree, he spent a small section fleshing out that they were different the completion of one has a small impact on playing the second afterwards, but the rest of the video was spent mentioning previous games in the series and just felt that it was rushed when it was made.

 

 

-Certain enemies, such as the River Zoras (Zolas) and Wizzrobes, only work as they do in overhead view;

The ones that popped out of the water and fired stuff at you? They do alright in 3D:

[Jonnas]

The ones that popped out of the water and fired stuff at you? They do alright in 3D:

[Octorok]

 

Fair point, but I was thinking specifically of those instances where they're on a river and you're on a higher ledge. In 3D, that would be hard to pull off.

[Hero-of-Time]

Wind Waker time!

 

[EEVILMURRAY]

He does like going back to those GBC games.

 

But he's right. Wind Waker blows.