Nintendo Switch - Happy Switchmas Everyone!

[Goron_3]

But it is compatible, the only thing you're saying is it may not be as comfortable. But in that very specific mode you still have access to all the buttons and I highly doubt it'll be a problem at all anyway. As hands on say it works great and it's similar to the wii set up and that was absolutely fine.

 

I never said it wouldn't physically work, I meant that it's not suitable. For a slower paced game yes but a joycon in each hand, not attached to the console doesn't give you the same sturdiness that the Pro Controller may give you, which is obviously not even as good as a wheel.

 

As for "similar to the Wii set up"; there were no racing sims on the Wii so I can't tell what your point of reference is. Again, games like Mario Kart will work fine but we are talking about a very specific game here. I can only imagine that the majority of people complaining about the developer comments are not actually interested in racing games like Dirt, Forza etc.

 

Just to clarify, I am not saying that a joy con in each hand is terrible. I am saying that for this one specific game (and probably genre), it's not the most suitable.

 

Then the solution can be tabletop mode with the use of joycon grips or pro controller. Just as it is for Zelda.

 

My point ultimately is if the Switch becomes a platform where developers can make money on they will make it [the game] work regardless.

 

The point from their point of view is that they can't guarantee that people will have the grip/PC on them.

 

We're going round in circles here, and I can't help but feel that the people arguing have never actually played racing games outside of Mario Kart

[Grazza]

It'll be interesting to see how Nintendo manage to push both huge openworld Zeldas like BOTW and more handheld-like titles like A Link Between Worlds, on the same console.

 

Yes. They were once a necessity, but I suspect we will not see them now. Nintendo will probably concentrate on the full, 3D Zeldas, with 2D games (not just Zelda) special projects rather than regular instalments they once were.

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

 

The point from their point of view is that they can't guarantee that people will have the grip/PC on them.

 

We're going round in circles here, and I can't help but feel that the people arguing have never actually played racing games outside of Mario Kart

 

Certainly happy to agree to disagree, however with your last statement I'm playing Project Cars right now. :p

[dazzybee]

I never said it wouldn't physically work, I meant that it's not suitable. For a slower paced game yes but a joycon in each hand, not attached to the console doesn't give you the same sturdiness that the Pro Controller may give you, which is obviously not even as good as a wheel.

 

As for "similar to the Wii set up"; there were no racing sims on the Wii so I can't tell what your point of reference is. Again, games like Mario Kart will work fine but we are talking about a very specific game here. I can only imagine that the majority of people complaining about the developer comments are not actually interested in racing games like Dirt, Forza etc.

 

Just to clarify, I am not saying that a joy con in each hand is terrible. I am saying that for this one specific game (and probably genre), it's not the most suitable.

 

 

 

The point from their point of view is that they can't guarantee that people will have the grip/PC on them.

 

We're going round in circles here, and I can't help but feel that the people arguing have never actually played racing games outside of Mario Kart

 

I've played F zero and Diddy kong too

 

I see what you're saying, but that should be up to the user to decide how they want to play it, it shouldn't stop the developer. I don't think bomberman would be great on the tablet due to it always being from a wide, or 4 player split screen on Mario kart, but the developers shouldn't be concerned with that. Dirt is exactly the kind of game that would be good for the Switch!

[Goron_3]

I've played F zero and Diddy kong too

 

I see what you're saying, but that should be up to the user to decide how they want to play it, it shouldn't stop the developer. I don't think bomberman would be great on the tablet due to it always being from a wide, or 4 player split screen on Mario kart, but the developers shouldn't be concerned with that. Dirt is exactly the kind of game that would be good for the Switch!

 

Speaking of which, I really REALLY hope we get one of these on Switch! The single player was absolutely amazing.

[Pestneb]

I'm not entirely sure what controls there are... but accelerator, brake, steering, gear up, gear down, headlights, fog lights? do they have users use a virtual clutch??

accelerate. footbrake. handbrake. gear up. gear down. headlights toggle on/off. foglights on/off. left analogue steering. If they want a clutch fine.

I see a need for 8 inputs so far... there are 2 shoulders on each joy con as I can see, so 4 total(someone seemed to say there was only one earlier?), 8 face buttons (ignoring home, share - and +) and 2 analogue sticks. afaik PS4 and XB1 have...

4 shoulder buttons, 8 face buttons (counting dpad as 4 face buttons) and 2 analogue sticks. So I'm kinda baffled on the input. I'm not totally familiar with all the specifics, the only thing I can imagine is if there are no analogue shoulder pads, I could understand them not then wanting to have either 100% on/off braking or accelerating. But surely the gyro could be used to a degree... press R2 and you accelerate, gyro relates the strength of that acceleration, press L2 and it relates braking. If you really want to brake and accelerate simultaneously... well that tends to be messy anyway. Maybe it would be better having the joy cons separated in that instance

 

As far as tabletop = 1 joycon... sure for a muppet. You simply take your switch with two joycons... pull out the kickstand and remove both joycons. I don't understand how there would be a problem here...

I can see why they would prefer analogue shoulders though, quicker to port things over satisfactorily. But as said, if the switch does well the effort will become worth it. Right now I can see why it isn't.

[dazzybee]

Speaking of which, I really REALLY hope we get one of these on Switch! The single player was absolutely amazing.

 

Yep. I'm hoping that Mario Kart 8 Deluxe and possibly some extra DLC is enough for Mario Kart on switch, I'd be happy with that; and they move onto another Diddy Kong Adventure racing game!

[Goron_3]

I'm not entirely sure what controls there are... but accelerator, brake, steering, gear up, gear down, headlights, fog lights? do they have users use a virtual clutch??

accelerate. footbrake. handbrake. gear up. gear down. headlights toggle on/off. foglights on/off. left analogue steering. If they want a clutch fine.

I see a need for 8 inputs so far... there are 2 shoulders on each joy con as I can see, so 4 total(someone seemed to say there was only one earlier?), 8 face buttons (ignoring home, share - and +) and 2 analogue sticks. afaik PS4 and XB1 have...

4 shoulder buttons, 8 face buttons (counting dpad as 4 face buttons) and 2 analogue sticks. So I'm kinda baffled on the input. I'm not totally familiar with all the specifics, the only thing I can imagine is if there are no analogue shoulder pads, I could understand them not then wanting to have either 100% on/off braking or accelerating. But surely the gyro could be used to a degree... press R2 and you accelerate, gyro relates the strength of that acceleration, press L2 and it relates braking. If you really want to brake and accelerate simultaneously... well that tends to be messy anyway. Maybe it would be better having the joy cons separated in that instance

 

As far as tabletop = 1 joycon... sure for a muppet. You simply take your switch with two joycons... pull out the kickstand and remove both joycons. I don't understand how there would be a problem here...

I can see why they would prefer analogue shoulders though, quicker to port things over satisfactorily. But as said, if the switch does well the effort will become worth it. Right now I can see why it isn't.

 

Again, imagine holding a joy con in each hand separately, and think about having quick access to all the buttons in a comfortable manner. It's just not ideal (I'm familiar with racing games, I say this with a heap of experience). The sturdiness and weight of a controller (or even with two joy cons inside a grip) go a long way to replicating the feel of a steering wheel.

 

I don't know why this has become such an issue, as games like Dirt aren't going to make people run to the Switch anyway.

 

I would much rather see unique games that fully utilise the Joy Con's as opposed to games that would be better off elsewhere.

[Pestneb]

Again, imagine holding a joy con in each hand separately, and think about having quick access to all the buttons in a comfortable manner. It's just not ideal (I'm familiar with racing games, I say this with a heap of experience). The sturdiness and weight of a controller (or even with two joy cons inside a grip) go a long way to replicating the feel of a steering wheel.

 

See I was thinking of the joy cons as a game pad.. not like MK wii motion steering wheel.

 

I've never held a joycon, but a wiimote for the face buttons, and a nunchuck for analogue sticks, they feel fine. As long as the joycons allow me to grip them as securely as the wiimote and nunchuck both did, I don't see myself having issues getting quick access to all the buttons.

But you have put another item on my "before I buy a switch" checklist - how do the joycons feel in my hands when separated from the main unit.

 

in terms of a steering wheel type experience, I'd be kinda pissed off if I was in a plane and the passenger next to me was holding a steering wheel for a few hours of the flight to play their racing game... that experience is surely one for the home, no?

 

Personally I would want a wider range of games, because I tend to be a one console gamer. I want unique and fun games for the switch, but I also want a reasonable amount of other games. I'm not buying a second console for 3/4 games.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Pestneb

[Ashley]

Okay maybe some visualisation will help...

 

Imagine you're holding a Pro Controller. Your hands are fixed on the horizontal axis - you cannot move your hands closer together or further apart from each other because of the controller.

 

With Joy-Cons detached you can, and similarly you can move them independently on the vertical axis.

 

It may seem like nothing in isolation, but with the speed and frequency of button inputs for a game like Dirt the more physical instability the Joy-Cons introduce the more diminished your ability to move around accurately. Suddenly shifting your thumb to steer moves your hand a bit too, immediately altering your balance. It may seem like a minor thing once or twice, but in a high-intense situation there is going to be a greater increase in these kind of balance-throwing movements.

 

I think that's what Goron is getting at.

[bob]

Okay maybe some visualisation will help...

 

Imagine you're holding a Pro Controller. Your hands are fixed on the horizontal axis - you cannot move your hands closer together or further apart from each other because of the controller.

 

With Joy-Cons detached you can, and similarly you can move them independently on the vertical axis.

 

It may seem like nothing in isolation, but with the speed and frequency of button inputs for a game like Dirt the more physical instability the Joy-Cons introduce the more diminished your ability to move around accurately. Suddenly shifting your thumb to steer moves your hand a bit too, immediately altering your balance. It may seem like a minor thing once or twice, but in a high-intense situation there is going to be a greater increase in these kind of balance-throwing movements.

 

I think that's what Goron is getting at.

 

Surely that'll mean you are just worse at the game - it's not game breaking.

[Goron_3]

Okay maybe some visualisation will help...

 

Imagine you're holding a Pro Controller. Your hands are fixed on the horizontal axis - you cannot move your hands closer together or further apart from each other because of the controller.

 

With Joy-Cons detached you can, and similarly you can move them independently on the vertical axis.

 

It may seem like nothing in isolation, but with the speed and frequency of button inputs for a game like Dirt the more physical instability the Joy-Cons introduce the more diminished your ability to move around accurately. Suddenly shifting your thumb to steer moves your hand a bit too, immediately altering your balance. It may seem like a minor thing once or twice, but in a high-intense situation there is going to be a greater increase in these kind of balance-throwing movements.

 

I think that's what Goron is getting at.

 

Yeah, basically this. You can't replicate the stability of a steering wheel with 2 joy con's.

 

Clearly you're a better wordsmith than I am. That's why you're the judge and I'm the law talking guy.

[Ronnie]

And given a small minority of players will likely play in that configuration, I don't understand why it would stop a dev from making a racing game.

 

Personally I found having my hands apart extremely confortable with the Wii remote and nunchuck. I imagine it'll be the same thing here.

[Goron_3]

And given a small minority of players will likely play in that configuration, I don't understand why it would stop a dev from making a racing game.

Personally I found having my hands apart extremely confortable with the Wii remote and nunchuck. I imagine it'll be the same thing here.

 

Again, which sim were you playing on? Because I don't recall there being any on Wii?

 

'A small number of players will play in that configuration'. How do you know the percentage of players playing at home versus tabletop mode? The thing isn't even out yet - you should give these statistics to developers

 

Ronnie, do you actually play games like Dirt, Formula 1, Forza etc?

[Ashley]

Surely that'll mean you are just worse at the game - it's not game breaking.

 

Oh yeah sure, but the question becomes - should you release a game that you know will be worse in a certain mode? Is that fair?

 

It's all a big unknown at the moment anyway. It's unknown if games have to support all three modes (I believe? Unless its one of the few things Nintendo has said recently). It's unknown what % of players would use that mode (exclusively and in combination with others).

 

I don't think it would stop a game like DIRT on a technical level, it's just whether it would stop devs from approaching it from a perceptual level ('should we bother given that...').

 

And Ronnie, I wasn't suggesting it would necessarily be uncomfortable, just impractical. Is it not one of the reasons Nintendo released 100* GameCube adaptors when Smash came out, because they knew the Wii Remote/Nunchuck setup wasn't as accurate or preferable for 'serious' players.

 

*stock estimate based on general availability

[Pestneb]

 

do you actually play games like Dirt, Formula 1, Forza etc?

 

I haven't personally played them in depth. Would you be able to describe maybe a typical sequence of gamepad inputs required? I'm thinking maybe entering a corner or maybe a chicane might require the a fairly large amount of inputs and convey to an extent the intricacies that I am completely missing here!

Unless the point was steering wheel > any gamepad?

 

 

And Ronnie, I wasn't suggesting it would necessarily be uncomfortable, just impractical. Is it not one of the reasons Nintendo released 100* GameCube adaptors when Smash came out, because they knew the Wii Remote/Nunchuck setup wasn't as accurate or preferable for 'serious' players.

 

was that not for the Wii U? the Wii originally natively supported GC controllers....

And the Wii U has the procontroller. I think the issue with wiimotes was motion controls not being as precise. Allegedly the Switch tech is a step up from motion plus, so presumable a level of greater accuracy mitigates that to some extent...

[bob]

Oh yeah sure, but the question becomes - should you release a game that you know will be worse in a certain mode? Is that fair?

 

It's all a big unknown at the moment anyway. It's unknown if games have to support all three modes (I believe? Unless its one of the few things Nintendo has said recently). It's unknown what % of players would use that mode (exclusively and in combination with others).

 

I don't think it would stop a game like DIRT on a technical level, it's just whether it would stop devs from approaching it from a perceptual level ('should we bother given that...').

 

And Ronnie, I wasn't suggesting it would necessarily be uncomfortable, just impractical. Is it not one of the reasons Nintendo released 100* GameCube adaptors when Smash came out, because they knew the Wii Remote/Nunchuck setup wasn't as accurate or preferable for 'serious' players.

 

*stock estimate based on general availability

Yeah but the Switch comes with a holder thingy in the box doesn't it? So it's not like there's a barrier to anybody putting their Joy Cons in that.

[Ashley]

I know its a specific move, but here's a youtube video with a decent view of the controller in action:

 

 

(2:19)

 

Yeah but the Switch comes with a holder thingy in the box doesn't it? So it's not like there's a barrier to anybody putting their Joy Cons in that.

 

But it's designed (and advertised) as not needing it when you're out and about. Of course you could carry it with you, like you could carry a bluetooth keyboard with an iPad.

[Goron_3]

Yeah but the Switch comes with a holder thingy in the box doesn't it? So it's not like there's a barrier to anybody putting their Joy Cons in that.

 

As I mentioned earlier (and as the developer said), the game would have to be made compatible with someone just wanting to use one joycon because you can't gaurentee that the player will take the grip / pro controller with them. The game would effectively be made redundant if one of these wasn't taken on the go with the player.

[Ronnie]

The game would effectively be made redundant if one of these wasn't taken on the go with the player.

 

The game would be perfectly playable if (arguably) slightly less comfortable. I haven't played the games you mention and I'm perfectly happy to admit to being wrong in the future, but as of now I think you're overstating the issue.

[Goron_3]

The game would be perfectly playable if (arguably) slightly less comfortable. I haven't played the games you mention and I'm perfectly happy to admit to being wrong in the future, but as of now I think you're overstating the issue.

 

Do you drive a car?

 

Imagine if:

 

-Your steering wheel was detached from the car.

The gear stick was removed from the car.

-You were then given each to control with one hand only.

 

And now read Ashley's post on the last page.

 

"I'm perfectly happy to admit being wrong in the future". I dunno, you're basically refusing to accept what someone who is super familiar with the games and genre in question is saying, as well as a developer who has dedicated his time and life to making such games

[Nicktendo]

Wow, this argument is amazing... The developer is totally in the wrong here. Nobody is forcing anyone to play the game with one joy-con or in table-top mode without the grip or a pro-controller no matter how "awkward" or "uncomfortable" it might be.

 

Funny how you can log onto Steam and see tons of rally games / racing games or Codemasters' games, and all of them support keyboard and mouse controls? But without a gamepad, which isn't the "most basic setup" and which you have to buy at extra expense, the game must be unplayable!

 

Hypocrisy, the dev is talking out his arse. Anyone remotely interested in serious racing games wouldn't dream of playing on one joy-con, and if they had to play on the go, it would be with the joy-cons locked to the screen for comfort and accessibility to buttons. Unless I'm missing something and 2-player split screen rallying is what people actually buy Dirt games for and six buttons and an analogue stick in the tabletop mode just aren't up to the job.

 

He should just come out and admit that the fact the Switch doesn't have analogue triggers is the real reason it would bomb. Ludicrous decision by Nintendo and they are going to miss out on a host of serious racing games for yet another generation.

[dazzybee]

Handheld mode would be better than tabletop mode anyway; I mean, you CAN play it in tabletop, but if it's worse then why wouldn't you play it in handheld mode? Doesn't make sense to dismiss it based on what will be the least played way of playing the switch full stop, but ultimately people can choose, isn't that a good thing? Choice? You don't like tabletop mode, don't play it?!

 

I'm sure this conversation is missing specifics because it's not making loads of sense.

[Nicktendo]

Handheld mode would be better than tabletop mode anyway; I mean, you CAN play it in tabletop, but if it's worse then why wouldn't you play it in handheld mode? Doesn't make sense to dismiss it based on what will be the least played way of playing the switch full stop, but ultimately people can choose, isn't that a good thing? Choice? You don't like tabletop mode, don't play it?!

 

I'm sure this conversation is missing specifics because it's not making loads of sense.

 

We've spent the past 25 years playing handled games with the controllers attached to they system, yet all of a sudden tabletop mode renders this tried and tested, comfortable method redundant? I'm not buying it. Tabletop mode will likely be great for short bursts of 2-player gaming, but for long solo sessions I can't see it being even remotely popular outside games which use heavy motion control, even then it's not exactly ideal.

[Clownferret]

It's as stupid as saying when in handheld or tablet mode out and about you may not have WiFi and so you can't release any games that require online.