Taboo Topics

[EEVILMURRAY]

The Queen should get off her arse and do some ruling.

[Jonnas]

Well is it not already easy to just bribe the people in charge of overseeing ballet counting?

 

I wouldn't say have only a select few vote, but instead use weighted system where some voters get more voting power than others.

 

I don't think having the "proles" vote forces politicians address their issues. If anything, it gets them to create catchy slogans, make promises they can't keep, and create laws because they sound good to a layman as opposed to actually being good.

 

True enough, in today's world, it's hard to pull off a bribe like that. The potential scandal outweighs any benefits (and it does happen still).

 

But by giving more weight to one chunk of the population, then you can get elected simply by saying you're going to give more benefits to that chunk. Doesn't really solve the problem, I think, and only encourages class division.

 

Not to mention, in practice, it's always the current government who defines how the weighted system works. You can see how that can go wrong.

 

Lastly, I don't know if it would still be called democracy, but if we had the system we had now, but elected government officials that were actually experts in the area they are being elected to, then I would think it would work much better. Having people creating laws to restrict the internet when they have no idea how the internet works or how it impacts the population, is a bit ridiculous.

 

In theory, that is what's supposed to happen already, with Economy experts becoming Finance Ministers, and so on (This definitely should be a thing that should be contested more often, the decision of putting someone who never taught in a high school as the Minister of Education, for example).

 

And honestly, I would never want my lawmakers to be Engineers or Computer Experts, but rather people versed in law who actually research the new thing they're restricting, or bother to consult experts to tell them. If they don't bother to do so, this speaks more about their intelligence than their qualifications.

 

True enough, there is a lot of pointlessness and incompetence in today's governments... or rather, pointlessness and incompetence that we laymen can actually see, better and faster than ever, and more importantly, highlight and contest. Democracy is malleable enough so that it can take such criticism and change, even if slowly (which beats "not at all").

 

This "Meritocracy in Politics" you're suggesting does sound like the sort of thing that can potentially exist in a democratic system, yes, and be enforced accordingly.

 

i wonder if an Autocracy or even Monarchy with the right leader would be the better option, surely it couldn't be any worse than the current system?

I suppose in essence it would be good if the best person for the job actually got it

 

Wouldn't this mean that the 2-3 party system simply becomes a 1 party system? And if you want something better, nothing short of a revolution or major reform will do it?

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

Transgender - Today India's Supreme Court recognises the third sex and stated:

 

"It is the right of every human being to choose their gender,"

 

As soon I read that I thought.... No it isnt... But what do I know?

 

As for transsexuals - I have nothing against them, I find a few can being exceptionally beautiful and passable. But whether its a human right to change gender... Im not so sure.

[Agent Gibbs]

Well thats the thing how do we solve it? fringe parties end up getting filled with looney fringe elements, look at the BNP,Green and UK independence parties, they start with a simple idea based on a deficiency in the current political structure, but not enough people are strong enough to join the party, hoping to change the current one, and thus member ship is filled with those willing to join, often people with very extreme views

 

I don't know how we could fix the current system, you'd need more than one person with common sense joining a party/creating a party and attempting to effect change, you'd need a hell of a lot of people, and those who want this aren't organised and too few and far between

 

I'm disenfranchised with it all and have no idea how we can fix it, i fear the corruption within the political class is too ingrained and they won't effect change because it doesn't suit them

 

I do wonder would it be better if a revolution occurred in the UK, but one where two parties cooperated to get rid of the old, then held elections, but then who would ensure they were any better

 

 

Going on from @King_V's post.....

I have issues with transgender, not the actually transgender part, but the whole gender identity issues going along with it, having followed some debates on other sites i really do not understand how people get offended by being referred to as one gender, or having to have certain words used Sis this and sis that....

I just cannot get my head round it, its to make them feel acknowledged but yet being so militantly angry at innocent misuse of words etc segregates them.

why can't it be as simple as you are male, female or pre op/Post op?

 

 

that made me think of one thing in writing the above

feminism

At what point did this militant element come about and devise the premise of rape culture and that all men are rapists until they prove otherwise? why is this view allowed when its so inherently wrong

Edited April 15, 2014 by Agent Gibbs

[Diageo]

True enough, in today's world, it's hard to pull off a bribe like that. The potential scandal outweighs any benefits (and it does happen still).

 

But by giving more weight to one chunk of the population, then you can get elected simply by saying you're going to give more benefits to that chunk. Doesn't really solve the problem, I think, and only encourages class division.

Well one chunk of the population already has more voting power, they just have to have majority. At least in this way, the majority vote goes to educated people who know what they are voting on and the effects of their decisions. An example is how equal marriage is not legal in some countries because the majority population don't like it, and so you can get elected by giving more benefits to heterosexuals than homosexuals. I would imagine that educated people who don't get voted based on popularity contests would be able to rationally choose benefits to the country and all population types.

Not to mention, in practice, it's always the current government who defines how the weighted system works. You can see how that can go wrong.

 

You're right about this one, it would be difficult to accomplish, especially with the government we have now.

 

In theory, that is what's supposed to happen already, with Economy experts becoming Finance Ministers, and so on (This definitely should be a thing that should be contested more often, the decision of putting someone who never taught in a high school as the Minister of Education, for example).

 

And honestly, I would never want my lawmakers to be Engineers or Computer Experts, but rather people versed in law who actually research the new thing they're restricting, or bother to consult experts to tell them. If they don't bother to do so, this speaks more about their intelligence than their qualifications.

I would prefer a committee of experts in several areas to make the decisions, which would allow for consultation as they are in the committee themselves. Not just Computer Engineers, but all other relevant disciplines for a law involving the internet.

 

Transgender - Today India's Supreme Court recognises the third sex and stated:

 

"It is the right of every human being to choose their gender,"

 

As soon I read that I thought.... No it isnt... But what do I know?

 

As for transsexuals - I have nothing against them, I find a few can being exceptionally beautiful and passable. But whether its a human right to change gender... Im not so sure.

 

Gender is different to sex. Sex is biologically determined by genetics, gender is a social constructs of how certain sexes should act. Therefore, if a man wants to wear a dress and make up, high heels and work in fashion. He's allowed to do so. If he wants to be called a she, he can do that. Why couldn't he have the right to that?

 

Going on from @King_V's post.....

I have issues with transgender, not the actually transgender part, but the whole gender identity issues going along with it, having followed some debates on other sites i really do not understand how people get offended by being referred to as one gender, or having to have certain words used Sis this and sis that....

 

I just cannot get my head round it, its to make them feel acknowledged but yet being so militantly angry at innocent misuse of words etc segregates them.

 

why can't it be as simple as you are male, female or pre op/Post op?

Because not everyone wants to have an operation. Also, there are a number of operations, and not everyone wants to have all of them. A woman may want to get her chest changes but still wants to have a vagina and is perfectly happy with it.

 

Cisgender and cissexual are just individuals that aren't trans. It's not that hard. Militant anger against innocent misuse is not OK of course, but that's a different issue.

 

that made me think of one thing in writing the above

feminism

At what point did this militant element come about and devise the premise of rape culture and that all men are rapists until they prove otherwise? why is this view allowed when its so inherently wrong

Well there are plenty of people that disagree with them and argue with them, so I wouldn't say they are spouting this stuff unchallenged.

[Agent Gibbs]

Because not everyone wants to have an operation. Also, there are a number of operations, and not everyone wants to have all of them. A woman may want to get her chest changes but still wants to have a vagina and is perfectly happy with it.

 

Cisgender and cissexual are just individuals that aren't trans. It's not that hard. Militant anger against innocent misuse is not OK of course, but that's a different issue.

 

Well there are plenty of people that disagree with them and argue with them, so I wouldn't say they are spouting this stuff unchallenged.

 

Yeah its more of the militant anger issue that i have a problem with (didn't word that right did i?)

The most recent instance i can think of this was a thread on gaf and a discussion surrounding a person describing a transgender person by a term that didn't identify with, and them being very offended, and lots of angry posts on gaf stating ignorance was no excuse and people shouldn't automatically assume a gender based on looks when first meeting someone, that we should always address people in a gender neutral way until told otherwise.

That sort of stuff to me is just not right, and people who are obviously sensitive of how other make them feel (willingly or unwillingly) shouldn't then blow up when someone innocently uses the wrong term, and rather ironically then effectively bullies that same person in the same way they felt bullied

 

With the feminism I think i described that poorly too, i find the whole topic quite interesting, but I've been alerted to articles from discussion on youtube videos; a few examples, a woman who had children of which she had a son who she treated differently and said she feared he would be a rapist like all men, and a certain element of feminism backed this up, including her detrimental treatment of the boy - i can in no way see any way anyone should back this woman up, the fact it was accepted and praised by anyone annoys me

Then theres the whole issues of a shift from equal rights to preferential rights for women, two women successfully taking a case against the MOD for failing basic training of the army, after not coping with the fitness testing due to having the same pack/equipment/Weight as men, they successfully argued women should be given a lower weight

Thats not equal opportunities and the fact it wasn't challenged in court successfully annoys the hell out of me, and more so my girlfirend who's in the TA, she's done the same tests and passed them, and rightfully thinks if you can't do the job tough, equality means equal

[Jonnas]

Regarding the Gender issues, I find myself agreeing with Diageo's comments on them.

 

I would imagine that educated people who don't get voted based on popularity contests would be able to rationally choose benefits to the country and all population types.

 

I generally agree with your view, but this is something that I don't think is true. Being educated or having accolades in your field does not mean you are rational or fair. In fact, many educated professors are part of the "old guard" for whom things like gay marriage are still strange. And many educated people give priority to career over family, so they wouldn't give attempts to benefit large families the attention they deserve, for example. Same thing goes for issue with blue collar jobs, it's the sort of thing that flies under an educated person's radar.

 

You're right about this one, it would be difficult to accomplish, especially with the government we have now.

 

Any government, really I don't know what kind of groups would the current British and Irish governments choose to prioritize, but I know that Chávez' government in Venezuela secured a few reelections by defining the vote of Agricultural workers as being worth more than others.

 

I would prefer a committee of experts in several areas to make the decisions, which would allow for consultation as they are in the committee themselves. Not just Computer Engineers, but all other relevant disciplines for a law involving the internet.

 

That could work, yes. Definitely the sort of thing that could be implemented.

[MoogleViper]

We don't really have true democracy with a first-past-the-post system. Until we have proportional representation then we'll usually end up with a minority of people representing the majority.

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

@Diageo - yeah im getting sex mixed with gender.

 

Anyway, always a face-slapper on N-E... RACISM ...

 

Are you racist? (someone has to be right? ), do you agree with racists (Nazis, evolutionary theories, pseudo science)? Do you have openly racist friends or family but dont feel any need to change their point of view?

[EEVILMURRAY]

I know someone on Twitter who is "making" an RPG game with a transgender protagonist, because she (I believe) is also one, as if it makes a difference (in a game I mean, to me the character is generally a blank slate you project yourself onto. Those with more defined characters I can feel a little distanced from due to us not being as similar). Some of the tweets just make me want to just say "OK WE GET IT. YOU NO LIKELY BEING LADY", she even has/had a Kickstarter to fund her laser hair removal. I just hate the ones who try to force it upon you.

[Diageo]

I don't think that holding a kickstaster would count as forcing it upon you. Also representation in the media is very important for minorities and just as you said you feel a little distanced from some characters, minorities feel distanced from most characters because of little representation. I think it's cool she's making a transgender character in an RPG.

[MoogleViper]

as you said you feel a little distanced from some characters, minorities feel distanced from most characters because of little representation.

 

But that's not the issue that Eevil is arguing. He's not saying he feels distanced because it's not a macho character, he's saying he feels distanced because the character has too much of a personality (and it's unlikely that the personality will be similar to his).

[Diageo]

But that's not the issue that Eevil is arguing. He's not saying he feels distanced because it's not a macho character, he's saying he feels distanced because the character has too much of a personality (and it's unlikely that the personality will be similar to his).

 

You're right, I misread that.

 

I don't like my characters blank. With Tales of Symphonia I liked that Lloyd had a personality and didn't feel distanced because of that. Whereas in things like Elder Scrolls were you're just whatever you make yourself I'm not a big fan of. There's different rpgs for everyone. I get how some people want to believe that the character is them though.

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

@Diageo - Do you agree people have the right to be racist?

[Diageo]

They have the right to do whatever they want. I will question them and probably no longer be friends with them, wouldn't hire them etc. But they have the right to be as racist as they want. I'd like them to be educated into changing their ways and if they harmed anyone else it would be grounds for arrest. I also would try to keep them from positions of power and would generally not trust their judgement.

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

They have the right to do whatever they want. I will question them and probably no longer be friends with them, wouldn't hire them etc. But they have the right to be as racist as they want. I'd like them to be educated into changing their ways and if they harmed anyone else it would be grounds for arrest. I also would try to keep them from positions of power and would generally not trust their judgement.

 

I think thats just too a simplistic view point, almost an inaction.

 

Racism - regardless of physical abuse or even verbal abuse - is harmful and is already causing harm.

 

Racism is a vile act/indoctrine against humanity, there HAS to be a limit to these "rights" people willfully throw around. There has to be a universally "right" and "wrong".

 

You keeping them from power doesn't mean a few million people won't. And education doesn't really say much about highly educated societies (the West) who choose to remain this ignorant.

[Diageo]

Well what do you propose to do?

 

If a few million people want them in power they'll have the power of that few million people unless I incapacitate them.

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

Well, for a start, a stronger sense of aversion to racism.. Theres still a feeling of people dealing with it in a farcicle manner, as if millions of people haven't died to this evil and continue to do so.

[EEVILMURRAY]

You're right, I misread that.

 

I don't like my characters blank. With Tales of Symphonia I liked that Lloyd had a personality and didn't feel distanced because of that. Whereas in things like Elder Scrolls were you're just whatever you make yourself I'm not a big fan of. There's different rpgs for everyone. I get how some people want to believe that the character is them though.

I do concur that it would depend on the game as well, I liked Lloyd also but Emil in Dawn of The New World and Luke in Tales of The Abyss are just infuriating.

[Iun]

Well, for a start, a stronger sense of aversion to racism.. Theres still a feeling of people dealing with it in a farcicle manner, as if millions of people haven't died to this evil and continue to do so.

 

I personally am extremely racist - I hate whites and non-whites with an equal passion.

 

In addition I particularly hate people who are taller than, the same size as or smaller than a horse.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I was subjected to racism during university -there was this UNREASONABLY GORGEOUS girl from Trinidad and Tobago who used to get on the bus into the town centre every Sunday who once struck up a conversation with me. We went out for a date and I jokingly asked her mother when I should bring the girl back - she replied "Oh, about 10pm) with a smile and I thought all was fine. We went to the movies, had dinner... then 10pm rolls round and she gets a screaming call for her mother "Are you still out with that white boy? I warned you they are all the same..." etc. etc. etc. Then I got the message that "Because you don't go to our Church we can't be together, it's not because of your race." Whatev'.

 

So we decided to stop seeing each other but soon she started hounding me and was desperate to go out and stuff, we went out again a few times... then one day she called and said "My mum doesn't want me to see you any more because you are white" - so I just called it quits (There was a lot of drama in between as well) and started dating a long-legged redhead.

 

Racism is pretty much the norm in China - "Look at that black bastard, keep your hand on your wallet/I wonder if he has any drugs with him today?" or "Hey, a white guy! Look, he has a Chinese girlfriend, I bet he can't get a woman the same colour as him because he's retarded or something."

 

Moral of the story: Bitches be crazy, and don't come to China if you're sensitive about race.

[MoogleViper]

There has to be a universally "right" and "wrong".

 

How in the world would that be possible? There's no absolute right or wrong, only what we (read: society) deems to be right or wrong.

 

Is it wrong to be racist? Yes, because society tells us it is. If we were brought up in a society that taught us racism was acceptable, then racism wouldn't be wrong.

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

I personally am extremely racist - I hate whites and non-whites with an equal passion.

 

In addition I particularly hate people who are taller than, the same size as or smaller than a horse.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I was subjected to racism during university -there was this UNREASONABLY GORGEOUS girl from Trinidad and Tobago who used to get on the bus into the town centre every Sunday who once struck up a conversation with me. We went out for a date and I jokingly asked her mother when I should bring the girl back - she replied "Oh, about 10pm) with a smile and I thought all was fine. We went to the movies, had dinner... then 10pm rolls round and she gets a screaming call for her mother "Are you still out with that white boy? I warned you they are all the same..." etc. etc. etc. Then I got the message that "Because you don't go to our Church we can't be together, it's not because of your race." Whatev'.

 

So we decided to stop seeing each other but soon she started hounding me and was desperate to go out and stuff, we went out again a few times... then one day she called and said "My mum doesn't want me to see you any more because you are white" - so I just called it quits (There was a lot of drama in between as well) and started dating a long-legged redhead.

 

Racism is pretty much the norm in China - "Look at that black bastard, keep your hand on your wallet/I wonder if he has any drugs with him today?" or "Hey, a white guy! Look, he has a Chinese girlfriend, I bet he can't get a woman the same colour as him because he's retarded or something."

 

Moral of the story: Bitches be crazy, and don't come to China if you're sensitive about race.

 

Well, yeah, thats fucked up and humiliating. I can't speak for China and the mindsets in other developing countries (Yeah I still count China as such), but in the West there has to be a standard code of conduct, I don't think a simple exceptance of having the right to be racist is good enough after everything we have been through.

 

Im not trying to be the party pooper militant PC black guy, the inside jokes are cool and shows a certain level of trust regardless of race etc.

 

But its the vile, inhumane crap - like what those Chinese people are spouting thats needs harsher penalties and if it means giving up some of our precious human rights, I'm for that.

 

How in the world would that be possible? There's no absolute right or wrong, only what we (read: society) deems to be right or wrong.

 

Is it wrong to be racist? Yes, because society tells us it is. If we were brought up in a society that taught us racism was acceptable, then racism wouldn't be wrong.

 

Its not wrong because society has weaned us to believe it is - its wrong because for the most part, human beings are quite rational and "pro-life", and believe certain acts to be a natural violation.

 

If you one day stabbed a person to death, I'm pretty sure at some point in your life you will know its wrong, even if you wasn't penalised for it.

Edited April 16, 2014 by King_V
Automerged Doublepost

[MoogleViper]

Its not wrong because society has weaned us to believe it is - its wrong because for the most part, human beings are quite rational and "pro-life", and believe certain acts to be a natural violation.

 

If you one day stabbed a person to death, I'm pretty sure at some point in your life you will know its wrong, even if you wasn't penalised for it.

 

In Pakistan, they think it's right to treat women the way they do. 500 years ago, English people thought it was right to treat women the way they did.

 

Now we think they were wrong, and we think Pakistan is wrong. However Pakistan thinks we're wrong. Who's to say which of us is right?

 

 

Humans are not inherently rational and pro-life. We're inherently pro-survival and pro-procreation. So going by that logic rape is inherently right. However socially it is wrong.

[Jonnas]

Its not wrong because society has weaned us to believe it is - its wrong because for the most part, human beings are quite rational and "pro-life", and believe certain acts to be a natural violation.

 

If you one day stabbed a person to death, I'm pretty sure at some point in your life you will know its wrong, even if you wasn't penalised for it.

 

Throughout history, many cultures enforced a social hierarchy that lead to discrimination (and grouping a race/nationality into a class leads to racism/xenophobia). It happened so often that there are accounts of supposedly enlightened people accepting that people are born into roles (like Greek philosophers believing that slavery is natural, or plantation owners and slaves alike believing that blacks are inherently disposed to obedience).

 

Accepting that all people have basic rights is, unfortunately, something that society needs to learn. Most humans do have empathy built into them, but even that becomes meaningless if they have a stronger belief that overrides it (for example, many doctors and soldiers can become desensitized to death).

 

Thankfully, it seems like most cultures, at least, understand that every person fights for basic freedom, even if that definition varies from place to place.

 

Answering your original question of "Does a person have the right to be racist?"... I think a person should be able to think and say whatever they want, and harming others is where you cross the line. However, if a society is racist then it is up to that society to change itself in a way that feels natural to them (For example, I once heard that US feminists and Japanese feminists often disagree, because both have a different definition of what their basic rights are supposed to be)

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

I think a person should be able to think and say whatever they want, and harming others is where you cross the line.

 

But the lines are blurred - racist sentiment is harmful before a football fan makes a monkey chant or a neo-Nazi shoots up a school.