Tropes Vs Women in Video Games

[Debug Mode]

Oh shit, here we go!

 

 

Currently watching, laughing in the irony Anita baited internet trolls into making her a damsel in distress which was arguably a huge factor in the success of her Kickstarter.

 

EDIT: Quite interesting, was expecting a lot of antagonism that was displayed during the run up of the funding date of series but didn't get much of that. She makes a very good point about how abundant the trope is used in Nintendo franchises, but makes quite a few leaps of logic to try and further strengthen her point. Peach supposedly being playable as a character in the western version of Mario 2 is supposedly unintended because it's originally Dokidoki Panic, even though the character reskinned to include her was also female. As for the Dinosaur Planet/Star Fox thing, I'm genuinely intrigued to see a source for this.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Debug Mode

[Cube]

As for the Dinosaur Planet/Star Fox thing, I'm genuinely intrigued to see a source for this.

 

Which part? The "Miyamoto joking about putting Star Fox characters in the game" part was from an interview in N64 Magazine.

[Debug Mode]

So there was some interest on his part huh? I just found it to be worded far too strong, as if it were fact, that it was cancelled purely to be made into a Star Fox game. Something just seemed a bit too fishy and the use of it as an opening example just didn't sit well with me.

[Cube]

Dinosaur Planet was the original game and was never cancelled. It was just infused with Starfox characters part way through development. For a period of time the game was even called Starfox Adventure: Dinosaur Planet. The main reason for the change was likely because it was a known franchise.

 

I'm surprised she didn't point out that there were two lead roles: Krystal and Sabre (who looked suspiciously like Fox from the beginning). When they changed to Stafox, they replaced Sabre with Fox and dropped Krystal as a main and playable character, instead putting her in a crystal for the whole game.

 

So they could have easily had Fox as a main character without reducing Krystal's role in any way.

 

(Still, it was an awesome game)

[Rummy]

Oh shit, here we go!

 

 

Currently watching, laughing in the irony Anita baited internet trolls into making her a damsel in distress which was arguably a huge factor in the success of her Kickstarter.

 

EDIT: Quite interesting, was expecting a lot of antagonism that was displayed during the run up of the funding date of series but didn't get much of that. She makes a very good point about how abundant the trope is used in Nintendo franchises, but makes quite a few leaps of logic to try and further strengthen her point. Peach supposedly being playable as a character in the western version of Mario 2 is supposedly unintended because it's originally Dokidoki Panic, even though the character reskinned to include her was also female. As for the Dinosaur Planet/Star Fox thing, I'm genuinely intrigued to see a source for this.

 

Had seen this referenced on fb and wasn't sure if I'd watch, seeing it's 20 minutes kinda put me off - but decided to stick with it for the sake of this. Well distracted by her chav hoops, guess it isn't such a thing over the waters.

 

Yes, it's a shame about Dinosaur Planet - personally I've not seen/played any much of Starfox Adventures but I'd have loved for it to have come out in its original iteration.

 

As you mention, the Doki Doki Panic comparison is a bit weak; as the character was originally female(I assume you to be accurate, I haven't checked).

 

Her argument against Mario with reference to 'core franchise' or 'core games' I think is a bit weak, as Mario's so huge now that by 'core' she basically only means the platformers which he was originally made famous for; I feel he's much bigger than that now. Which brings me to the next point - Zelda and Mario are originally setup as what they are; hero rescuing the princess. Yes it's this damsel in distress trope, but it's repeated over and over because the game is essentially being repeated over and over. Let's not forget essentially how equally vacuous mario himself is, merely a vehicle to allow the game to exist - similar to Peach. Was there any mention of the Paper Mario series? I can't recall her appearances in all; but in TTYD was there not the bits where you played as Peach with the creepy computer and DID make your own way towards breaking free of your prison?

 

I noted how casually she almost glossed over Super Princess Peach - not bothering to even name it at least. Yes she'll come to it later, but it felt like it was brushed under in this instance. I should note, I have high hopes for the second video as a counter point to this one - I think this is just to rope folks in.

 

I should mention with the reference to 'core mario' - one of the biggest games in the mario series for fans is the Smash Bros series. In which both Peach and Zelda are playable characters, and fairly kick ass imo. I know some find Peach a bit flowery at first, but that makes it all the more fun to win with her! I must add that Zelda is one of my favourite characters also.

Another in favour of Peach - captain in the strikers games(or at least charged)?

 

This video also seems to put a majority of blame on video games - it's a reflection of larger views. Yes, it should be turned on its head but as she mentioned it with Popeye and King Kong - it was occurring in the wider media of film and TV too, games would naturally be influenced. This is only a snapshot of games too, it doesn't account for games where the trope is fairly irrelevant(Bubble Bobble as a top of my head example - blockbuster game with none of this business).

 

 

ANYHOO. I think it was an ok video - things like this are good to discuss and the main point is certainly very valid. I feel it's certainly a little biased in its representation for the sake of being what it is, and hope that future ones might not be quite so. Whilst I've criticised the video a lot in this post, it's more I disagree with the style and presentation; than the point itself. I think it'd be totally awesome to have more strong female characters in/as leads in video games.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Rummy

[Guy]

Looking forward to seeing where this is going.

 

She's definitely focussing a lot on Nintendo games where plot has never been a huge focus and they've essentially leaned on the same old formula to get Mario/Link from point A to B. I'm also pretty sure Dinosaur Planet became Star Fox Adventures because of concerns the game wouldn't sell. The game would have probably been pretty average either way.

 

I'd much prefer if we weren't forced to look at her throughout the entire goddamn video. These types of points work best with a disembodied voice over screenshots and footage.

[Ville]

 

Some good points there.

[Debug Mode]

Good points, but I'm actually relieved she didn't open the comments. As much as I can't stand her antagonistic attitude to criticism, some people are just too fucking stupid and fire away blatant sexist remarks as a form of debate which doesn't help at all.

 

In all fairness, some game developers really need to have a look at some of the points she's putting forward. The damsel in distress is not explicitly sexist, Mario saving the fucking princess of a kingdom is not objectifying Peach, it's a very basic instinct to protect royalty that we've seen in our own history. For Zelda though, she does put up one hell of an argument that I can't actually counter. Although she's pretty much the same as Peach in the fact that Link is saving her for the same reasons, the fact she gets captured whenever she lowers her defence to reveal a more feminine side is a valid point.

 

On the whole, I'm not very fond of Anita, and the "Who's The Damsel Now?" video pretty much sums up why I'm not fond of her. She has a good video despite its flaws, but there's one issue I would fucking love her to tackle that would give me so much god damn respect, and that's the exploitation of the topic of sexism by video game journalists. There's no denying that shortly after the funding of her Kickstarter, video game journalists were quick to capitalise on possible sexism issues by sensationalising them. Sites like Kotaku have become a cesspit, taking any issue and trying to imply sexism in it to deliberately bait in clicks and make some nice cash on it, which cheapens the whole cause and further divides the sexes and has hit such a level that it's clear that equality isn't on the agenda on both sides of the debate, but to see one gender dominate the other which is fucking sad.

 

We need more analysis like this video, but with a dedicated space to debate the topic to further understanding on both sides of the debate. The last thing we need is sensationalist cunts fanning the flames to make a quick buck.

[Cube]

For Zelda though, she does put up one hell of an argument that I can't actually counter.

 

I thought points about Sheik and Tetra were great - as soon as they transformed into "standard Zelda", they got kidnapped. Although I can see why it's done. Unlike most games with a situation like that, "saving the girl" is not the goal - you've already been working towards defeating Gannondorf before Zelda gets kidnapped.

 

I think Zelda getting kidnapped in Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker isn't so much a "damsel in distress" situation, but rather a convenient way to get the Zelda (and the Triforce of Wisdom) to the final boss without Zelda having to tag along for the final dungeon.

 

Also, the alternate timeline version of Ocarina of Time Zelda doesn't get kidnapped. She and Link stop Gannondorf, then Link goes off Termina. Although she does at least not include the Majora's Mask box art.

[dan-likes-trees]

 

Some good points there.

 

Who gives a shit that comments aren't allowed, theres clearly hundreds of places online discussing this video (about every games website i've been on this week have featured it, with comment sections) its just that, for example, thousands of troll thumbs down on the video might discourage people from watching. Recognising that youtube isn't a particularly good forum for measured debate doesn't make the host a 'damsel in distress', it's just a sensible decision. The guy who made the video is a a prick, and it's a pointless distraction from the documentary itself.

 

Back to the actual video, thought it was anokayish watch, didn't know the stuff about starfox (and loled at the sax music). In general I thought there wasn't much that wasn't pointing out the obvious to the average gamer though. I'll be more interested in the next part, given there are a lot more examples of balanced female characters in contemporary games in comparison to the rampant sexism of earlier games.

[Magnus]

Haha, I thought Ville had posted the second part of her series and I was like, "that's not the reaction I was expecting from him!"

[Cube]

I'll be more interested in the next part, given there are a lot more examples of balanced female characters in contemporary games in comparison to the rampant sexism of earlier games.

 

And then there's the women in SoulCalibur and Dead or Alive - and I'm sure she'll have a rant about "female armour".

 

I hope that she talks about Commander Shepard in one of the videos. And the new Lara Croft - with the new game, she's gone from a sex icon to an amazing female character.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Cube

[Debug Mode]

Recognising that youtube isn't a particularly good forum for measured debate doesn't make the host a 'damsel in distress', it's just a sensible decision. The guy who made the video is a a prick, and it's a pointless distraction from the documentary itself.

 

You have a very good point in regards to the rating system, that should probably be best left disabled, but I can't help but find this part of your post a little too strong.

 

In reality, she has made herself into the trope she complains about. She baited and selectively picked negative comments throughout her Kickstarter campaign to kick it into a media frenzy, casually ignoring the comments that made rather well constructed arguments.

 

And the same applies to this video, how this guy is a 'prick' for continuing the debate in a different perspective is something I can't comprehend. The fact you've put it down to being a 'pointless distraction from the documentary itself' pretty much proves his point that there is an attitude of disallowing criticism.

 

What we do need is a standardised, neutral place to debate the issue as it's far too fractured and in the places it is debated there is going to be overwhelming bias on either side. This is why he suggests opening the comments, something I don't particularly agree is a good idea as I stated earlier but a fair point nonetheless.

[dan-likes-trees]

You have a very good point in regards to the rating system, that should probably be best left disabled, but I can't help but find this part of your post a little too strong.

 

In reality, she has made herself into the trope she complains about. She baited and selectively picked negative comments throughout her Kickstarter campaign to kick it into a media frenzy, casually ignoring the comments that made rather well constructed arguments.

 

And the same applies to this video, how this guy is a 'prick' for continuing the debate in a different perspective is something I can't comprehend. The fact you've put it down to being a 'pointless distraction from the documentary itself' pretty much proves his point that there is an attitude of disallowing criticism.

 

What we do need is a standardised, neutral place to debate the issue as it's far too fractured and in the places it is debated there is going to be overwhelming bias on either side. This is why he suggests opening the comments, something I don't particularly agree is a good idea as I stated earlier but a fair point nonetheless.

 

Well I suppose it's because I dont think he is 'continuing' the debate - he's taking it totally off topic by taking a very minor point and turning it into a ten minute video (way longer than it needs to be) that is pretty self-indulgent. Literally half the video is about a squabble he had with some idiot on tumblr. I don't think saying that some feminists are dumb, in the same way that some sexists are dumb, is bringing anything to the table. I guess his point there is that everyone should be allowed to voice their opinions (although when this woman on tumblr disagrees he basically humiliates her on this video) but given how pointless a few minutes of video that was, I thought it kind of went against his point.

 

Mainly though I just found his tone very annoying, smug, and self-important throughout, whilst actually not really saying anything at all. The title to the video, 'who's the damsel now', is particularly irritating too - it's childish, and again totally ignores the substance of her video.

 

re this

In reality, she has made herself into the trope she complains about. She baited and selectively picked negative comments throughout her Kickstarter campaign to kick it into a media frenzy, casually ignoring the comments that made rather well constructed arguments.

 

I'll admit that I haven't seen anything aside from her video and a bit of the kickstarter promo so I'll take your word, and maybe the topic has more relevance than I thought. I wouldn't say it makes her a damsel in distress though - the damsel is surely defined by passivity, and she's clearly been pretty active in addressing the issues that she sees. Also I'd say that selecting a few negative comments is argueably for the greater good - the promo has clearly worked - funding was really successful and the doc will be seen by millions of people, so arguably the nature in which it was made was probably for the greater good.

 

Also I don't think she can really win here. From what I gather, in her kickstarter campaign she discusses negative and sexist comments she's received through social media, and people kick up a fuss. Then she turns off comments to get away from that, and people still kick up a fuss.

 

And then there's the women in SoulCalibur and Dead or Alive - and I'm sure she'll have a rant about "female armour".

 

I hope that she talks about Commander Shepard in one of the videos. And the new Lara Croft - with the new game, she's gone from a sex icon to an amazing female character.

 

Yeah ha, the big boobs of SC and DoA are almost too easy a target really. Like you say I'd be more interested to see what she has to say about evenly drawn female character in contemporary games - Laura Croft is a great example. Jade from Beyond Good and Evil is another that I'd hope she'll mention, if only in passing.

[Cube]

In terms of the comments - YouTube is not the place for them. It will turn into a mindless argument about feminism and not about women in games. I even have evidence to back that up:

 

And that's from a video where a father hacked Donkey Kong for his daughter to swap Mario and Pauline.

[Debug Mode]

Holy shit, what a fucking mess those comments are..

 

I was looking through AmazingAtheists Tumblr feed and in reply to a question which asked him why he doesn't just go to Reddit to express dissenting opinions, he basically said what I implied earlier, there needs to be a neutral place to discuss this issue as most places where this is a hot topic will be bias to one side or the other.

 

His full reply to that question:

 

Ugh. Nothing will ever be accomplished or moved forward if this discussion doesn’t happen. Feminists all cluster on Tumblr! Anti-Feminists all cluster on Reddit! And both sides have convinced themselves that the other cannot see reason.

Don’t let yourselves be torn apart by ideology, guys.

 

Youtube comments are definitely not the place, but the debate accomplishes nothing in this current form.

[MoogleViper]

In all fairness, some game developers really need to have a look at some of the points she's putting forward. The damsel in distress is not explicitly sexist, Mario saving the fucking princess of a kingdom is not objectifying Peach, it's a very basic instinct to protect royalty that we've seen in our own history. For Zelda though, she does put up one hell of an argument that I can't actually counter. Although she's pretty much the same as Peach in the fact that Link is saving her for the same reasons, the fact she gets captured whenever she lowers her defence to reveal a more feminine side is a valid point.

 

I thought the exact opposite. Princess Peach is a whiny fucktard, and the whole game is based around her being Mario's fancy piece.

 

Zelda on the other hand is actually a strong capable woman, who is kidnapped because she's royalty, and she has some freaky voodoo blood. And as Cube said, most of the game is played before she's kidnapped, and is more about overthrowing an evil dictator (which is a far far far more commonly used video game storyline than the damsel in distress).

 

Like you say I'd be more interested to see what she has to say about evenly drawn female character in contemporary games - Laura Croft is a great example. Jade from Beyond Good and Evil is another that I'd hope she'll mention, if only in passing.

 

I doubt she will. She seems like one of those feminists who spend more time complaining about problems than about good examples and how to fix them. By constantly complaining, people are just going to think she's a whiny bitch. However if she used games like Beyond Good & Evil, and modern Tomb Raiders (and many more) as an example of how it doesn't need to be this way, then it would create a positive image of how things could be, and give people something to work with/towards, rather than "everything's shit, you're all sexist shit".

 

And then there's the women in SoulCalibur and Dead or Alive - and I'm sure she'll have a rant about "female armour".

 

For me female armour is the biggest piece of sexism in games. I don't think the damsel in distress sequence is inherently sexist (although it is often done badly). Take a look at many women's idea of romance. How many times have you heard a woman say she wants to be swept off of her feet by a knight in shining armour? Women are as much to blame for the trope as men (although if everyone's to blame, then you have to consider it might not actually be a problem).

[Cube]

I doubt she will. She seems like one of those feminists who spend more time complaining about problems than about good examples and how to fix them. By constantly complaining, people are just going to think she's a whiny bitch. However if she used games like Beyond Good & Evil, and modern Tomb Raiders (and many more) as an example of how it doesn't need to be this way, then it would create a positive image of how things could be, and give people something to work with/towards, rather than "everything's shit, you're all sexist shit".

 

Here's the list of episodes:

 

Damsel in Distress - Video #1

The Fighting F#@k Toy - Video #2

The Sexy Sidekick - Video #3

The Sexy Villainess - Video #4

Background Decoration - Video #5

Voodoo Priestess/Tribal Sorceress - Video #6

Women as Reward - Video #7

Mrs. Male Character - Video #8

Unattractive Equals Evil - Video #9

Man with Boobs - Video #10

Positive Female Characters! - Video #11

Video #12 - Top 10 Most Common Defenses of Sexism in Games

 

She does plan on doing a positive one.

 

Although "Mrs. Male Character" and "Man with Boobs" sound the game, "Women as Reward" sounds like what she was going on a bout in "Damsels in Distress" and "The Sexy Villainess" and "Unattractive Equals Evil" seems like a contradiction.

[Guy]

Leaving the comments open on a video like this would have been like... throwing a tiny piece of bread into a huge group of starving pigeons.

[Debug Mode]

I am so looking forward to Man with Boobs.

 

 

Are videos not embedding properly as of late?

Edited March 11, 2013 by Debug Mode

[MoogleViper]

"Man with Boobs"

 

Sounds like she's doing my biography.

[Cube]

I am so looking forward to Man with Boobs.

 

 

Are videos not embedding properly as of late?

 

You missed the "E-" from the code.

[Guy]

More than anything... I want to know how much money it actually cost to make that first video. The Kickstarter made absolute bank ($158,000) and yet the first installment is nothing more than a flashy logo, some decent Photoshops and a bunch of footage lifted directly from other YouTube videos. How much did those freaking earrings cost?

Edited March 10, 2013 by Guy

[Hamishmash]

I love her and every single one of her videos. And I find it funny that everyone that has a problem with the video tends to be male gamers, and the point of this video is to say that women who play games can often feel very uncomfortable with their representation. She also makes it very clear that it's ok to keep enjoying these games (people hardly play Mario for the plot) but to be aware of these things, and to demand better from game developers.

 

The fact that they didn't even put fucking Toadette as a playable character in NSMB Wii is just abysmal, let alone the more obvious Peach choice.

 

There is no reason for not putting more playable female characters in games which is not sexist.

 

EDIT: Also about Kickstarter? You think she just turns on a camera and starts talking? Kickstarters can be used to fund projects in terms of working hours. I know someone who used Kickstarter to make their webcomic their job. They do it digitally and no page costs money to produce but it meant they could work full time on it as a job because making comics takes bloody ages. I'm assuming she counts the time it takes to write, research and edit as her "work hours" and she wants to make these videos as a job. Which I think is great because they are viral, informative and make people discuss things they often try to ignore.

Edited March 10, 2013 by Hamishmash

[MoogleViper]

EDIT: Also about Kickstarter? You think she just turns on a camera and starts talking? Kickstarters can be used to fund projects in terms of working hours. I know someone who used Kickstarter to make their webcomic their job. They do it digitally and no page costs money to produce but it meant they could work full time on it as a job because making comics takes bloody ages. I'm assuming she counts the time it takes to write, research and edit as her "work hours" and she wants to make these videos as a job. Which I think is great because they are viral, informative and make people discuss things they often try to ignore.

 

$158,000 dollars. That's how much she values her time? What a self-righteous asshole.

 

Think how much good that money could have done. Nope, she's making a few videos whilst essentially exploiting the issues so she can live the high life.