General Gaming Sales/Charts Discussion

[liger05]

Anarchy Reigns did better than I had expected. Was predicting that it wouldn't chart at all

 

Otherwise, same old same old.

 

I read it did 4500 which means the bottom of the chart must be what 1000 , 1500 units.

 

For nintendoland not to be charting is scary. A new console should be shifting more than 1000 units a week.

[Goron_3]

Online is fine (seriously, the issues outside of voice chat and messaging are identical on Xbox Live), and lack of software is relative. There's a steady stream. But still, save it for another thread :p

 

You're kidding right?

[Zechs Merquise]

I don't want the Wii U to fail (and I'm sure it won't) but I hope this blows apart the myth that "The GameCube Approach" is a terrible one.

 

You must be kidding?

 

Are you suggesting that the 'GameCube Approach' (totally forgetting online and insisting on people being together in a room with a ton of different controllers and 'asymmetric play') is viable?

 

It's not a myth that the GameCube approach failed - and it's no big secret to why it did. People want to play online.

 

If Nintendo go back to the GameCube days, then they've blown it!

[Hero-of-Time]

You must be kidding?

 

Are you suggesting that the 'GameCube Approach' (totally forgetting online and insisting on people being together in a room with a ton of different controllers and 'asymmetric play') is viable?

 

It's not a myth that the GameCube approach failed - and it's no big secret to why it did. People want to play online.

 

If Nintendo go back to the GameCube days, then they've blown it!

 

I think he's referring to Nintendo releasing a console that competes with the others graphically, rather than lower specs but with a hook.

[Debug Mode]

I'm one of the very few people that still plays their Gamecube online. They had the tools to do it, but didn't even push it as a first party (I think they did one title in Japan, but no where else).

 

But back when the Gamecube was out, the only real console pioneers were either dead or in a very decent second place without much of an install base. It took the PS2 many years for it to get its online features sorted.

[liger05]

You must be kidding?

 

Are you suggesting that the 'GameCube Approach' (totally forgetting online and insisting on people being together in a room with a ton of different controllers and 'asymmetric play') is viable?

 

It's not a myth that the GameCube approach failed - and it's no big secret to why it did. People want to play online.

 

If Nintendo go back to the GameCube days, then they've blown it!

 

I would agree people want to play online. However there was a console which offered a great online experience before the GC, PS2 and Xbox called the Dreamcast. Playing NFL2K1 online via dial up with little lag was incredible.

[Goron_3]

If they made the console look different and actually bothered to market it properly, as well as making the storage somewhere near to DVDs, the GameCube would have sold brilliantly (ofc, nowhere near the PS3). Since then Nintendo have hit the 'we need a gimmick that no one else has thought of, and we'll ofset the cost by making it much weaker spec wise' button and whilst I massively agreed with that approach with the DS and 3DS, they could have released a £300 console with a normal controller and had it blow the current consoles out of the water.

 

I hope the Wii U does alright and I'm sure the software will help, but they've got a big job ahead of them.

[liger05]

If they made the console look different and actually bothered to market it properly, as well as making the storage somewhere near to DVDs, the GameCube would have sold brilliantly (ofc, nowhere near the PS3). Since then Nintendo have hit the 'we need a gimmick that no one else has thought of, and we'll ofset the cost by making it much weaker spec wise' button and whilst I massively agreed with that approach with the DS and 3DS, they could have released a £300 console with a normal controller and had it blow the current consoles out of the water.

 

I hope the Wii U does alright and I'm sure the software will help, but they've got a big job ahead of them.

 

The DS and 3DS were not underpowered. Both of them followed the typical progression with handhelds. Sony decided to go further but one could argue they didn’t need to produce a handheld like the Vita. They could of went with something less powerful and sold for under £200.

 

I can’t fault Nintendo for approach they took with the Wii. It worked and made them a ton of money however the biggest problem was not releasing new HW when they decided to stop supporting the Wii. That to me was a huge error as the core would move to 360/PS3 while the casual will jump to whatever is the new hot product. You have to build a core audience and then have others join them.

The casual gamer cannot be relied on!!

 

I’m not sure the gamepad is the problem. For me Nintendo making the gamepad the focus of the console is the problem. E3 2011 they didn’t even show the console which is just crazy. They are trying to sell the console off the gamepad but a touch screen controller isn’t going to do that when everyone uses touch devices these days. For me they are trying to push this as a continuation of the Wii experience instead of it being a new experience. Even on the Wii U homepage they have a comparison chart between the Wii, Wii U basic and Wii U premium. Why would you even put the Wii on there and give people a decision to make on whether they want the Wii or Wii U?

 

There is no doubt they could of went with a more powerful machine and a standard pad and sold for the same price however that wouldn’t of changed much if the games are not there. Software will always be the #1 key to drive hardware sales and a majority of expensive third party port launch titles and then a software drought isn’t going to do that.

 

It’s going to be a big ask to get a decent lead on the competition before they launch with their new systems. E3 could see two new consoles grabbing all the media attention with the Wii U in a difficult spot.

 

They can defiantly turn it around with the right software but in Europe well defiantly the UK the console looks DOA right now.

[Grazza]

You must be kidding?

 

Are you suggesting that the 'GameCube Approach' (totally forgetting online and insisting on people being together in a room with a ton of different controllers and 'asymmetric play') is viable?

 

It's not a myth that the GameCube approach failed - and it's no big secret to why it did. People want to play online.

 

Online wasn't as important back then. Dreamcast pioneered it that generation (with it being most associated with Xbox), but you can't seriously think it was make or break in those days? Many of us still used 56k!

 

What I mean by "GameCube Approach" is a powerful console with a good controller and games people actually want to play. Plus, it made a profit. Nintendo has started to think people will buy their machines without any real reason to. It has also started to think including a gimmick is absolutely essential, and yet has started making huge losses every time one fails to repeat the success of the Wii. Not a coincidence.

[Serebii]

You're kidding right?

No, I'm not. I've listened to you lot here complain about what happens to you guys on CoD, and I have had the exact same experiences in almost the same abundance...but on the Xbox 360

[Hero-of-Time]

No, I'm not. I've listened to you lot here complain about what happens to you guys on CoD, and I have had the exact same experiences in almost the same abundance...but on the Xbox 360

 

You've lost the ability to party chat and send messages on your Xbox? Must be broken, mate.

[Goron_3]

No, I'm not. I've listened to you lot here complain about what happens to you guys on CoD, and I have had the exact same experiences in almost the same abundance...but on the Xbox 360

 

I never mentioned CoD. The Wii U is fundamentally behind the 360 in terms of online and what you can do.

 

You need to seriously get out of Iwata's asshole and stop defending them at every opportunity. It's as bad as spamming, get over it mate and shut up. I think I speak for most people when I say it'd tiresome.

[liger05]

I never mentioned CoD. The Wii U is fundamentally behind the 360 in terms of online and what you can do.

 

You need to seriously get out of Iwata's asshole and stop defending them at every opportunity. It's as bad as spamming, get over it mate and shut up. I think I speak for most people when I say it'd tiresome.

 

I can forgive some hiccups as this whole online side of things is new ground to Nintendo. What I can't accept though is slow os, ui and basic things like party chat and headset accessibility with the pro pad. That to me is basic stuff.

[Goron_3]

I can forgive some hiccups as this whole online side of things is new ground to Nintendo. What I can't accept though is slow os, ui and basic things like party chat and headset accessibility with the pro pad. That to me is basic stuff.

 

Yeah. This. There are just too many basic issues.

[Serebii]

You've lost the ability to party chat and send messages on your Xbox? Must be broken, mate.

I mentioned the messaging, but yeah I agree about party chat, just forgot about it :p

 

I can forgive some hiccups as this whole online side of things is new ground to Nintendo. What I can't accept though is slow os, ui and basic things like party chat and headset accessibility with the pro pad. That to me is basic stuff.

It has been timed and the Wii U OS is not much slower than the 360 and there is absolutely nothing wrong with the UI

[Goron_3]

I mentioned the messaging, but yeah I agree about party chat, just forgot about it :p

 

 

It has been timed and the Wii U OS is not much slower than the 360 and there is absolutely nothing wrong with the UI

 

With so much more RAM, being slower than the 360 should never have been an option. I'm not expecting it to match an iPad but with more memory it should be much faster.

[liger05]

I mentioned the messaging, but yeah I agree about party chat, just forgot about it :p

 

 

It has been timed and the Wii U OS is not much slower than the 360 and there is absolutely nothing wrong with the UI

 

I am comparing my xbox live experience and my wii u online experience which may be different for others but for more me live is quicker. The transitions on LIVE seem quicker to me and download speeds are not even debatable. Now my Wii U downloads are nowhere near as slow as what I have read some people seemed to of had but it still should be quicker.

 

Again as long as Nintendo recognise this and are looking to improve it then that's all good.

 

Sorry I should clarify I actually like the UI and just have some things I would like to see improved. It's not crammed with ads anyway which is all good!!

[Zechs Merquise]

Online wasn't as important back then. Dreamcast pioneered it that generation (with it being most associated with Xbox), but you can't seriously think it was make or break in those days? Many of us still used 56k!

 

What I mean by "GameCube Approach" is a powerful console with a good controller and games people actually want to play. Plus, it made a profit. Nintendo has started to think people will buy their machines without any real reason to. It has also started to think including a gimmick is absolutely essential, and yet has started making huge losses every time one fails to repeat the success of the Wii. Not a coincidence.

 

I would love to have seen the Wii U a little more powerful. I must say though, Nintendo has had I think 2 quarters with small losses, so let's not start talking 'huge losses'. Sony have lost between 4 and 5 billion dollars on the PS3 to date. That's 'huge'. I'm sure Nintendo will soon be back in the black with the 3DS and Wii U!

[Lens of Truth]

What I mean by "GameCube Approach" is a powerful console with a good controller and games people actually want to play. Plus, it made a profit. Nintendo has started to think people will buy their machines without any real reason to. It has also started to think including a gimmick is absolutely essential, and yet has started making huge losses every time one fails to repeat the success of the Wii. Not a coincidence.

The gamepad isn't a gimmick in the sense that I would understand it; somewhat borne out by the fact that it can't be sold as such - just look at how the marketing is struggling! No, the screen just adds to the general usability of the console, navigating, touch menus etc. It can be used in certain games to enrich the immersion and interactivity, and opens up new possibilities for off-screen and multiplayer, but it's not a "gimmick" any more than adding a second analogue stick or four controller ports is.

 

This quote from Shin'en the other day speaks volumes and I'm pretty sure we'll see some impressive feats from the Wii U once its up to speed.

The Wii U development environment allowed us to go from zero to a great, polished game in only half a year. I think we never ever got so far so fast on a new hardware, and we’ve worked on a lot of platforms in the past decades.

 

We decided to add a local two-player mode where one player uses the TV and the other one the Wii U GamePad. That meant the complete game world would need to be rendered twice for the Wii U GamePad display. That nearly doubled the burden on the GPU and CPU, but even then we were still able to maintain solid 60FPS without much effort on both displays. Then on top we even added camera streaming, so that the TV player can see the face of the Wii U GamePad player, which adds a lot of fun. We expected the additional camera encoding and streaming would add noticeable strain on the Wii U, but it was almost free. All this proved the system is very well balanced and allows developers without much effort, to use all the unique features. Another benefit of the Wii U is that the system memory is so large that we never have to load an asset again. Everything can be cached and load times are almost gone.

Games that are exclusively single player (ie that don't need to render a second view to the pad) like Zelda and Metroid, should be able to throw around some pretty impressive stuff.

 

I'm not going to debate further whether the Wii U is 'powerful' or not because if the current definition of that is 4K then it's pretty pie in the sky.

 

Wake me up in about a decade when the recession's almost over and there's a £300 piece of kit that can handle 4K 60fps. :wink:

Edited January 14, 2013 by Lens of Truth

[Dcubed]

Well with HMV officially entering administration, Game (in their post administration zombiefied form) is the single lone pan-UK games retailer chain on the highstreet now (aside from the supermarkets)

 

Nintendo had better get that Wii U stock into those supermarket stores ASAP, because otherwise their highstreet presence is gonna become nearly non-existent!

Edited January 14, 2013 by Dcubed

[liger05]

The gamepad isn't a gimmick in the sense that I would understand it; somewhat borne out by the fact that it can't be sold as such - just look at how the marketing is struggling! No, the screen just adds to the general usability of the console, navigating, touch menus etc. It can be used in certain games to enrich the immersion and interactivity, and opens up new possibilities for off-screen and multiplayer, but it's not a "gimmick" any more than adding a second analogue stick or four controller ports is.

 

This quote from Shin'en the other day speaks volumes and I'm pretty sure we'll see some impressive feats from the Wii U once its up to speed.

 

Games that are exclusively single player (ie that don't need to render a second view to the pad) like Zelda and Metroid, should be able to throw around some pretty impressive stuff.

 

I'm not going to debate further whether the Wii U is 'powerful' or not because if the current definition of that is 4K then it's pretty pie in the sky.

 

Wake me up in about a decade when the recession's almost over and there's a £300 piece of kit that can handle 4K 60fps. :wink:

 

The Shin'en quote is interesting and at the same time adds to my frustration with nintendo. Indie devs have spoke about how easy it has been to work with nintendo and the ability to set there own prices etc etc, Shin'en says it didnt take long to get there game up and running but then the console releases and the eshop content is barren. I dont understand why 12-18 months ago there wasnt an aim to make sure the eshop on day 1 had plenty of content and then regular updates.

 

Its like Nintendo are in there own bubble and its so frustrating.

[Lens of Truth]

I dont understand why 12-18 months ago there wasnt an aim to make sure the eshop on day 1 had plenty of content and then regular updates.

Definitely agree on this. I'm gobsmacked at the how slow the eshop is getting going. They could have filled this period with fresh Virtual Console gems we've not seen before, or dumped the whole Wii VC library on with the option to update to 60Hz with decent upscaling.

 

I think they wanted to step back a bit during the launch window and allow 3rd parties and the few indie devs who are on board to get some limelight, but there's no doubt it's alienating many gamers.

 

It's odd for me because I find myself with over half a dozen games to enjoy, all top quality, and playing more multiplayer than I have in years.

 

Paid a visit to another big Tesco here today and not a single solitary sign of the Wii U; no games, nothing. They really need to get this sorted.

 

[For what it's worth on the UI front, I've been checking for updates practically every time I switch the console on ]

[liger05]

Definitely agree on this. I'm gobsmacked at the how slow the eshop is getting going. They could have filled this period with fresh Virtual Console gems we've not seen before, or dumped the whole Wii VC library on with the option to update to 60Hz with decent upscaling.

 

I think they wanted to step back a bit during the launch window and allow 3rd parties and the few indie devs who are on board to get some limelight, but there's no doubt it's alienating many gamers.

 

It's odd for me because I find myself with over half a dozen games to enjoy, all top quality, and playing more multiplayer than I have in years.

 

Paid a visit to another big Tesco here today and not a single solitary sign of the Wii U; no games, nothing. They really need to get this sorted.

 

[For what it's worth on the UI front, I've been checking for updates practically every time I switch the console on ]

 

The 3DS never launched with the Eshop and when it eventually came we had the drip by drip approach and still in the west we get so few updates compared to Japan. Still waiting for snes and GBA titles on the 3DS Eshop. I did hope the Wii U would be different but nope same lack of content.

 

What is the reason behind the lack of supermarket presence. It cant be stock issues so what? Supermarkets just not interested in making space for the product?

 

With HMV in administration, the cutback on Game stores the high street presence is going to be minimal.

 

My bro bumped into a friend today who is a PC gamer but knows console games as well. He told him he had a wii u and his response was 'whats that'?

Edited January 14, 2013 by liger05

[Captain Falcon]

The DS and 3DS were not underpowered. Both of them followed the typical progression with handhelds. Sony decided to go further but one could argue they didn’t need to produce a handheld like the Vita. They could of went with something less powerful and sold for under £200.

 

In terms of advancement along the technological scale, the DS and 3DS can be seen as under powered. People saw Sony's jump with the PSP as them over reaching and perhaps they were in some respects, but in others they weren't - the fact that they could put out a device that had several times the grunt of it's competitor said a lot. Nintendo hung onto the original GB for so long that they got stuck in a bit of a no man's land when it came to subsequent hardware follow-ups. And the lack of any serious competition certainly never helped matters as no one was pushing them to do much more than absolute minimum.

 

 

What is the reason behind the lack of supermarket presence. It cant be stock issues so what? Supermarkets just not interested in making space for the product?

 

Some suggest it's the avoid premature discounting that often happens when SuperMarkets get involved. They drive the prices down so low to encourage sales that they will eat into their own profit margins because one trip round the rest of the shop will have made up the difference. It makes it harder for specialist and indie stores to compete and is ultimately bad for the industry that often has a hard time explaining that it's not unreasonable to ask someone to pay a premium price for a premium experience.

 

It is strange though that they have skipped on them all as I read numerous reports over the years about how ASDA are a massive player in the gaming market and make up a sizeable portion of retail sales. But then it could well have been a stock issue as 45k units for launch isn't a lot per gaming outlet and it becomes positively anemic if you factor in supermarkets.

 

 

Just briefly back to the 4k stuff - Digital Foundry put up an article at the weekend on 4k gaming and it's viablity. There were rumours last summer about the PS4 being 4K compatable and I suspect it will be with a specific menu that was made at the 4K resolution. I don't believe it unfeasible either that certain games have the option for 4K though they will be few and far between sticking to 1080p - you know you will end up downloading Rez again if they put it up in 4K... and you actually have the TV for it. If games do end up consistently falling into sub Full HD resolutions, I can see the people moving away from the machine in favour of PCs, especially with all the renewed interest in PC games as of late and Valve setting their sites high. If DF can get reasonable 4K gaming on an £800 computer, why would you pay £300-£400 to still be faced with 720p when a similarly priced PC wouldn't struggle too much with 1080p - especially once they start bypassing Windows in favor of a low demand Linux setup.

 

I just think important for Sony to be seen to be supporting it from a marketing campaign standpoint. After the flop that has been 3D TVs and all the money they ploughed into it, Sony need 4K to take off in the interim, as in before 8K, so they can actually start selling TVs again... if they can get past the fact they are no longer seen as the premium brand they think they are and come in at more sensible prices.

 

But the adverts will read how PS4 is the only console to offer 4K gaming... even if it is only a handful of titles and then they employ dynamic framebuffers in half of them. Yeah, it's marketing bullshit but c'mon, would you expect anything less?

Edited January 14, 2013 by Captain Falcon

[Lens of Truth]

If DF can get reasonable 4K gaming on an £800 computer, why would you pay £300-£400 to still be faced with 720p when a similarly priced PC wouldn't struggle too much with 1080p

You've phrased that as nicely as you could In my experience £400 PCs are far from consistent or comfortable with 'current gen' games at 1080p.

 

I think Sony are their own worst enemy on this sort of thing (like Nintendo are, but the inverse). They're in financial dire straits and before 1080p has even had a chance to bed-in they want to push to another new standard that's entirely irrelevant unless you have a wall-sized screen and a wallet to match! Even then, there is no 4K content. Try getting movies in that res. The big studios are only just beginning to open up their catalogues on blu-ray and getting their heads around how to do decent transfers that actually take advantage of the format. 1080p downloads are still a rarity (ones that aren't compressed to hell and back, and official ones even more so). Imagine downloading a monster 100GB+ file (currently not on the horizon) every time you want to justify that layout on your beast of a 4K LCD.

 

A large proportion of the films you see at the cinema are shown from 2K files (ie about the same as 1080p). Even at that size most people can't tell the difference.

 

TV broadcasters are all fighting for space and struggle to output a small handful of 'premier' channels at 720p. There simply isn't the bandwidth.

 

If a notional 4K capability (or lack of) had any bearing on Wii U's potential sales it would be negligible, coming only from a rich minority of a crevice of a niche in tech-oneupmanship land.

 

The Digital Foundry article paints a realistic picture, while remaining 'optimistic'. I'm sure you're right that the PS4 will use it as a marketing line, but I thought this comment was telling:

Our information from developer sources suggests that even Sony - with much to gain in promoting 4K gameplay bearing in mind its upcoming range of screens - is making no attempt to evangelise the new display format to third-party developers, with 1080p the target resolution for Orbis titles.

 

HMV going under is rather sad for me because I often browse and impulse buy there (not games though, they're all a bit steep!). If in a few years hence we have a situation with Amazon and pretty much nothing else then I hope we at least get them to cough-up a bit more in tax, after highstreet retailers have been crippled by massive overheads and council rates (and of course reluctant and hubristic pricing schemes).

 

Some suggest it's the avoid premature discounting that often happens when SuperMarkets get involved. They drive the prices down so low to encourage sales that they will eat into their own profit margins because one trip round the rest of the shop will have made up the difference. It makes it harder for specialist and indie stores to compete and is ultimately bad for the industry that often has a hard time explaining that it's not unreasonable to ask someone to pay a premium price for a premium experience.

Ah, that does sound plausible. Would fit with the whole 'soft launch' strategy too.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Lens of Truth