Posted January 26, 2011 Lawyers for a child in Pennsylvania who was 11 when he allegedly shot and killed his father's pregnant fiancee attempted today to persuade an appeals court not to try him as an adult under America's harsh system of juvenile justice. Unless the lawyers for Jordan Brown who is now aged 13, can convince the judges to change tack, he will be tried in adult court and if convicted will serve an automatic life sentence with no chance of parole. He would become the youngest child in US history to be sentenced to be incarcerated forever. The US is the only country where juveniles are serving life imprisonment without parole under the so-called "life means life" policy. Only the US and Somalia have refused to ratify the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, which rules out life sentences with no chance of release for crimes committed before the age of 18. Brown is accused of having killed Kenzie Houk, in February 2009 at her home in the countryside about 35 miles north-west of Pittsburgh. According to the prosecution, Brown shot her through the back of the head as she slept in her bedroom. He is then alleged to have got on the school bus and gone to his elementary school as usual. Houk, 26, was just two weeks away from her due date and her unborn child, who would have been called Christopher, died too. Brown has been charged with two counts of homicide. Brown allegedly carried out the killing using his own hunting rifle, a shotgun designed specifically for children. The prosecution alleges that the killing was premeditated and they found residue from the gun on Brown's shoulder. When he was first presented to court Brown was made to wear shackles around his wrists and ankles. Human rights campaigners are protesting the treatment of Brown as an adult. Amnesty International said the move would be a violation of international law. "It is shocking that anyone this young could face life imprisonment without parole, let alone in a country which labels itself as a progressive force for human rights," said Susan Lee, head of the campaign's Americas operation. The Sentencing Project, a Washington-based campaign, said no other country had juveniles serving life without parole. "That leads to only two conclusions: either kids in the US are far more violent than those in the rest of the world, or the US has developed uniquely harsh sentences." At a federal level, the US penal system has been inching towards a more lenient approach to juvenile crime. In 2005 the US supreme court abolished the death penalty for under-18s. Then last May it ruled that juveniles could not be subjected to life without parole for any crime other than homicide. But that still leaves about 2,400 prisoners facing permanent imprisonment for homicides committed when they were children. Pennsylvania, where all juveniles are automatically treated as adults unless a judge decides otherwise, heads the league table of 44 states that hand out the sentence, with about 450 cases. Houk's death has divided the two families involved in their response to Brown's judicial treatment. The boy's father, Chris Brown, protests his son's innocence and says he has no idea what could await him. "Try to explain to a 12-year-old what the rest of your life means. It's incomprehensible for him," he told ABC News last year. The victim's mother, Deborah Houk, has pushed for the toughest sentence for the boy. "I can't stand this 'Oh, he's 11,' 'Oh, his clothes don't fit him,'" she told the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review soon after her daughter's death. "He knew what he was doing. He killed my baby." Sauce So! Pretty mental, eh? America's extremely harsh juvenile law means that a 13 year old boy will be tried as an adult (for crimes committed aged 11) and faces a 'life means life' sentence that will see him die in prison. So what do you think? is this legal insanity or does the kid deserve it? The Onion did a pretty good sketch on it this week too Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 26, 2011 Well, shit. What on Earth drove an 11 year old child to kill his pregnant stepmum? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 26, 2011 his own hunting rifle, a shotgun designed specifically for children. What...the..fuck??? The person who bought this for him, the people who sold it, the people who made it and the people who designed it should all face life imprisonment. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 26, 2011 Slogans like "Life means Life," tagged along with automatic sentences are dumb. Clearly that's the real issue here for me. I think at 11 you have some level of accountability, not the same as a young child and not the same as an adult. That is, most 11 year olds do, but we don't know his mental balance so it's hard to say for sure. Either way, a sensible judge should hand down the appropriate sentence on a case by case basis. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 26, 2011 Slogans like "Life means Life," tagged along with automatic sentences are dumb. Clearly that's the real issue here for me. I think at 11 you have some level of accountability, not the same as a young child and not the same as an adult. That is, most 11 year olds do, but we don't know his mental balance so it's hard to say for sure. Either way, a sensible judge should hand down the appropriate sentence on a case by case basis. Yes. This. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 26, 2011 He might be a kid, but he murdered a pregnant woman whilst she was sleeping. Sling the evil bastard in jail, whether he deserves to stay their for the entirety of his life is thankfully something I don't have to determine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 26, 2011 I think at 11 you start to have more awareness. He shouldn't have been shooting at such a young age in the first place. He must have known what he was doing. Maybe not the consequences, but no-one thinks about that until after. The fact it was pre-meditated shows how sinister it really was, and then he went to school! In England there is the doli-incapax principle, which stops any child under 10 from being prosecuted for their actions on the basis they didn't know what they were doing. I agree with that. For this boy, I really don't know. I think life should be for life for sick people like that. But he is so young, he should have a chance to be rehabilitated eventually. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 26, 2011 "He is then alleged to have got on the school bus and gone to his elementary school as usual." Anyone else want to tell me that to blow a sleeping pregnant lady's head off with a shotgun would be reasonable behaviour at 11 years old? No remorse, no feelings of horror of what you've just done? Damn right he should be tried as an adult. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 26, 2011 Yeah, that is fucked up... Mental rehabilitation would be my first choice, no matter whether he had good or bad reasons for this crime. Also, rifles designed for children... Those things should be regulated by the parents. Who the fuck lets a child keep a hunting rifle himself? I mean, Jesus, if parents who are used to guns can't keep a child away from them... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 26, 2011 "He is then alleged to have got on the school bus and gone to his elementary school as usual." Anyone else want to tell me that to blow a sleeping pregnant lady's head off with a shotgun would be reasonable behaviour at 11 years old? No remorse, no feelings of horror of what you've just done? Damn right he should be tried as an adult. No- he should be tried as a mentally ill child. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 26, 2011 No- he should be tried as a mentally ill child. No- he should be tried as a mentally ill adult. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 26, 2011 Why? He was eleven. Were you making adult choices then? Obviously, the case is extremely disturbing, and it's likely he'd spend a great deal of time in detention anyway but locking him up and throwing away the key is barbaric. He's thirteen years old. That means he'll probably spend at least seventy years or more in a cell. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 26, 2011 Technically, the 11 year old took 2 lives. The life of both the unborn child, and the life of the woman in question. I've always stood by with saying that you take a life, yours should be taken as well. Maybe not in the sence of the death penalty, but he shouldn't be allowed out of prison. No murderer should be allowed out in my opinion, unless convicted of manslaughter (accidental death, and showing so so much remorse). I don't think murderers show remorse personally. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 26, 2011 The person who bought this for him, the people who sold it, the people who made it and the people who designed it should all face life imprisonment. Stupidest law ever, but what can you do? You know how they are about their constitution, nothing can ever be changed. __ If he is a child, then he most obviously needs to be tried as such. He does need therapy, though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 26, 2011 How can you value life when you've hardly lived one? He should be tried as a child. More importantly, why did he even do it? There's obviously more going on here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 26, 2011 Kid deserves a death sentence tbh. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 26, 2011 All I can say is that the kid needs a Fuck load of mental health work, and that some forum members here are idiots. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 26, 2011 All I can say is that the kid needs a Fuck load of mental health work, and that some forum members here are idiots. Difference of opinion =/= idiot. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 26, 2011 The saddest part of all this is not that the psycho kid did what he did, but how about the father!? He now has a child who is a cold blooded killer and his own son shot the woman he loved and a child which never had the chance to live. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 26, 2011 Kid deserves a death sentence tbh. I come for the chat, but I stay for the well thought out debates. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 26, 2011 Well this is obviously shocking and it's different to remain cool headed in a debate like this that has so many divisive factors. One might argue that an 11 year old has little concept of life and death, that there is a permanence to pulling the trigger. You could say that he has been hunting birds and that in doing so he has seen the things as replaceable - there's alway more birds, right? The flip side is that any child who has a gun must have been taught that when you aim and pull the trigger, that whatever you hit is not coming back, ever. There may be a deer, a wolf or a bluejay just like it, but the life you took will never come back. The question is: did he know what he was doing? If yes, then string him up by the highest branch you can find. If not, put him in a secure unit and help the kid, because he's going to need a shit load of psychological help over the next few years. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 26, 2011 I come for the chat, but I stay for the well thought out debates. In my defence, I'm on a smart phone. I'll post more when I have access to a proper keyboard. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 26, 2011 Well this is obviously shocking and it's different to remain cool headed in a debate like this that has so many divisive factors. One might argue that an 11 year old has little concept of life and death, that there is a permanence to pulling the trigger. You could say that he has been hunting birds and that in doing so he has seen the things as replaceable - there's alway more birds, right? The flip side is that any child who has a gun must have been taught that when you aim and pull the trigger, that whatever you hit is not coming back, ever. There may be a deer, a wolf or a bluejay just like it, but the life you took will never come back. The question is: did he know what he was doing? If yes, then string him up by the highest branch you can find. If not, put him in a secure unit and help the kid, because he's going to need a shit load of psychological help over the next few years. It's not that I don't think he knew what he was doing, just that as a clearly disturbed child, attributing the culpability of a rational adult to him as the US legal system is doing is totally wrong. Especially when the penalty is so dire. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 26, 2011 My main qualm is the "life means life" element. The crime itself is one that a judge and jury need to work out, not a bunch of hot-headed forumites who only know what happened from one news article. Clearly there's a lot more going on here than we know about, so it's not our place to infer. If someone commits an evil act I do not think an equally evil act is thus condoned. Sending a child to grow up and die in prison is pretty horrendous in itself. Punishment is rarely going to be apropriately equal to the harm caused in the first place. BLEH. Stupid. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 26, 2011 He might be a kid, but he murdered a pregnant woman whilst she was sleeping. Sling the evil bastard in jail, whether he deserves to stay their for the entirety of his life is thankfully something I don't have to determine. Spot on Ramar. He should be tried as a child. Because he IS a child. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
