BlueStar Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 Don't like the Tory plan of tax breaks for married couples, talk about a nanny state. "Get married and be the kind of family the government wants you to be or we'll fine you" basically.
Daft Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 Speaking of policies that annoy you; fuck off Tories with your ideal to repeal the fox hunting ban. If you make it legal again I'll shoot Cameron. I've never met a smarmier and slier fox than him anyway. Foxes are a pest.
Ashley Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 Foxes are a pest. If we're going to kill of pests we'll have to carry on with the aforementioned plan to kill children :p Its a part of nature. I hate how we try and play god sometimes. But then my views are slightly skewered by my animal-loving hippie dippy ways I'll admit. But still, banning it was humane progression. "Vote for change" indeed.
Sheikah Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 Foxhunting is cruel, no matter what way you look at it. To be torn apart by a dog is a cruel and disgusting way to die.
The fish Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 Foxhunting is cruel, no matter what way you look at it. To be torn apart by a dog is a cruel and disgusting way to die. But it's TRADITIONAL!!! Because, of course, that obviously justifies it...
Daft Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 Nature is cruel. You're not going to stop lions hunting antelope because it's not civil, are you? What's the difference between hunting foxes and killing rats? Both could be seen as completely inhumane.
Ashley Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 Nature is cruel. You're not going to stop lions hunting antelope because it's not civil, are you? What's the difference between hunting foxes and killing rats? Both could be seen as completely inhumane. I think what's interesting is here is clearly in my head I separated humans from nature/animals, which again colours my response. But I see your point, we're merely one animal killing another animal. As I said, my views are bound to be biased so I'll admit I'm not going to be the best to argue. This particular policy just bugs me as it does seem like a step backwards. I'm not not voting Tory because of just this obviously. And I'm personally against killing rats. Not to the point of trying to get people to change their ways (I assure you, I'm no PETA, I know its an unachievable goal) but I wouldn't do it personally. Even if we had some in the house. I'd find other routes to remove them. Or do a Bard and adopt them.
Daft Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 This particular policy just bugs me as it does seem like a step backwards. A step backward? What exactly would we be the ideal world we are moving towards? A world where everyone is vegetarian and happy about it? Fox hunting is a cultural institution, why does it not deserve the same protection that, for example, the Kuranko's rite involving self-inflicted pain get? (I can't be bothered to think of ones that involve animals, but I assure you there are a lot.)
Ashley Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 A step backward? What exactly would we be the ideal world we are moving towards? A world where everyone is vegetarian and happy about it? Fox hunting is a cultural institution, why does it not deserve the same protection that, for example, the Kuranko's rite involving self-inflicted pain get? (I can't be bothered to think of ones that involve animals, but I assure you there are a lot.) In the sense that I presumed as it was passed it was something that society, in the majority, thought was now antiquated. But I guess not. Don't try and taint me with Dynasty's brush. I'm not trying to make everyone a veggie I just find the notion of hunting for sport to be cruel.
Sheikah Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 Nature is cruel. You're not going to stop lions hunting antelope because it's not civil, are you? What's the difference between hunting foxes and killing rats? Both could be seen as completely inhumane. Last I remember, foxhunting isn't nature. It's artificial. As in, we take dogs and train them to savagely rip foxes apart.
Ellmeister Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 Its not "teared" apart by dogs...they would snap the neck almost instantly, except in the odd case where difficulties arise. Don't go attacking me as I don't have much of an opinion on it all, I've heard the story from both sides, with the term "class war" being used by both. Foxes get killed on the roads a lot worse everyday when you think about it anyway, whereas the dogs are just doing what nature has told them to do effectively?
Sheikah Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 Foxes get killed on the roads a lot worse everyday when you think about it anyway, whereas the dogs are just doing what nature has told them to do effectively? Again, how is what we tell dogs to a do a force of nature? I'm just wondering at what point some people become so egotistical to believe they are the voice of mother nature.
McPhee Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 Saw this. Made me laugh, a bit of John Cleese is always good Nature is cruel. You're not going to stop lions hunting antelope because it's not civil, are you? What's the difference between hunting foxes and killing rats? Both could be seen as completely inhumane. They're a pest and their numbers do need controlling. Being shot and then ripped limb from limb by hounds really isn't the most humane way to go about it though. Not that the currently legal method of shooting them and leaving them to bleed out is any better. I'm not too up to date on what the suggested humane solutions are (if any exist).
Daft Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 Last I remember, foxhunting isn't nature. It's artificial. As in, we take dogs and train them to savagely rip foxes apart. So you're saying culture is unnatural? Or only specific types of culture? Irrigation must be unnatural then...and anti-septic...Where does it stop?
Ellmeister Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 I'm a bit perplexed on your reply there. I highly doubt someone really looks at it that oddly so as to believe they are playing mother nature. I'm struggling to picture someone laugh manically believing they have become greater than mother nature... Besides, the dogs just have an instinct in them. The hunters have simply used this and sure they have trained them it doesn't just delete the dogs underlying desire to go for the foxes.
Sheikah Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 (edited) So you're saying culture is unnatural? Or only specific types of culture? Irrigation must be unnatural then...and anti-septic...Where does it stop? I am saying that artificial isn't natural. They are two absolute opposites. Most of what humans do is now beyond the call of nature, hence the term 'artificial'. And foxhunting is most definitely one of those things. As McPhee said, if it was really about controlling numbers, there would be a far more humane way to do this. If it was about food, they would all be eaten afterwards. It is neither of these. It's a sick sport for rich toffs. Edit: of course antiseptic is unnatural. Does that mean it's bad? No. I was using the unnatural argument when Ell said that dogs were just obeying nature. Which was pure horeshit, since they are obeying the rather unnatural commands of man. Edited April 13, 2010 by Sheikah
McPhee Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 (edited) Its not "teared" apart by dogs...they would snap the neck almost instantly, except in the odd case where difficulties arise. They will grab the fox by the scruff of the neck and shake it. This does snap the neck, but it can also result in the fox becoming disembowelled (and some times in the wrong order). The results get even more messy if the dog grabs the wrong part of the fox. As McPhee said, if it was really about controlling numbers, there would be a far more humane way to do this. If it was about food, they would all be eaten afterwards. It is neither of these, and therefore, unnatural. It's a sick sport for rich toffs. Whoa, you've got me wrong here. I'm actually for lifting the ban. As I said, there's a tendency these days to shoot the fox and let it bleed to death because the hounds aren't allowed to go in for the kill. That's a much, much worse fate. I'd have preference to a more humane method, though one that can preserve the traditional sport. Edited April 13, 2010 by McPhee
Daft Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 They're a pest and their numbers do need controlling. Being shot and then ripped limb from limb by hounds really isn't the most humane way to go about it though. Not that the currently legal method of shooting them and leaving them to bleed out is any better. I'm not too up to date on what the suggested humane solutions are (if any exist). You want to tell that to the chickens that the Foxes rip apart, limb from limb?
Sheikah Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 You want to tell that to the chickens that the Foxes rip apart, limb from limb? There's a huge difference between killing to survive; to eat, and killing for entertainment while pretending to give a half shit about 'controlling' fox numbers (as I mentioned; if this was the case, there'd be humane methods in place).
The fish Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 You want to tell that to the chickens that the Foxes rip apart, limb from limb? Part of what defines civilization is that punishment isn't the same as the crime. I can't see how it's not better to shoot them.
McPhee Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 You want to tell that to the chickens that the Foxes rip apart, limb from limb? I'd rather tell the idiot farmer to secure his coop better. I keep chickens. Zero fatalities to foxes (so far). There's a huge difference between killing to survive; to eat, and killing for entertainment while pretending to give a half shit about 'controlling' fox numbers (as I mentioned; if this was the case, there'd be humane methods in place). Foxes kill for entertainment. There's times when they'll get in to a chicken run and kill every single bird without eating a scrap. It's fun The bin next to the house likely has far more tasty treats in it anyhow...
MoogleViper Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 Foxes kill for entertainment. There's times when they'll get in to a chicken run and kill every single bird without eating a scrap. It's fun And cats kill birds and other animals for fun but I don't see anyone going round tearing them limb from limb.
Daft Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 (edited) I am saying that artificial isn't natural. They are two absolute opposites. Most of what humans do is now beyond the call of nature, hence the term 'artificial'. And foxhunting is most definitely one of those things. As McPhee said, if it was really about controlling numbers, there would be a far more humane way to do this. If it was about food, they would all be eaten afterwards. It is neither of these, and therefore, unnatural. It's a sick sport for rich toffs. Okay, I get artificial is not natural but you haven't defined what 'nature' is. I don't see how you can say it is beyond nature. Don't other animals hunt in packs? Is it the method you have a problem with? That people use guns and trained dogs instead of running and using their bare hands? Is this really a problem with class? With 'toffs'? As for whether it's humane, like I said, foxes rip chickens and other animals to pieces. In fact Fox hunting fulfils a very basic need and desire to protect territory - as well as facilitate social bonds. Part of what defines civilization is that punishment isn't the same as the crime. Civilisation is completely defined by infrastructure and institutions. Not socially constructed morals. Edited April 13, 2010 by Daft
McPhee Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 (edited) And cats kill birds and other animals for fun but I don't see anyone going round tearing them limb from limb. Do you see your local cat population breeding out of control due to plentiful food supply and a lack of any form of natural predator? No? Edited April 13, 2010 by McPhee
MoogleViper Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 Do you see your local cat population breeding out of control due to plentiful food supply and a lack of any form of natural predator? No? I'm not against the killing of foxes (if necessary). But you can't use that they kill for fun against them. As other animals do it. I can't be arsed to get in a long debate as we've had this thread when it was first banned. I will say that I've pretty much agreed with what Sheikah has said on this matter.
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