Captain Falcon Posted February 9, 2013 Posted February 9, 2013 I'm definitely going to make Kyle a Great Knight (if I get the appropriate Crest). Kyle just seems like he should be a Great Knight, whereas Franz and Forde seem like they should be Paladins. I'd rather have two Paladins (Seth is the other, of course) and two Great Knights, but I can't help taking their characters into account (proof it's a good game, I suppose). If Kyle stays a Paladin, he'll max out his strength but not his other stats and whilst he will still only end up maxing his strength as a Great Knight, that will result in more damage due to the higher cap. Sure you get 2 less movement but that's the only draw back. The change in stat caps has no positive impact on Franz and a slight (negligible) negative impact on Forde. For them, it's just about whether you want to sacrifice movement for the full wepaon triangle. Making them Great Knights also makes them weak to armour slaying weapons but you rarely see them and most units are too crap to use them well anyway due to bad accuracy and being heavy.
Jonnas Posted February 10, 2013 Posted February 10, 2013 I know what you meant when you said crazy strong, in that you were referring to all round ability rather than just brute strength, but I still feel that Kyle's offensive advantage over the other Paladins outweight their benefits in skill/speed/defense over the course of the game where enemies don't have great skill or speed on the whole. That's why I always have him promote to Great Knight so he can smash everything he comes across with ease. Funny, I think that Kyle is the weakest Cavalier, because his speed is a dodgy variable. Forde's potential lack of strength can be solved via supports, at least. Franz > Seth > Forde > Kyle, for me. (Also, I prefer movement over raw strength) I started playing Path of Radience yesterday - done some more today and am at the base at the start of Chapter 8. Much to my amazement, my level 9 Soren has 7 defense already. Not only that, but he levelled up strength 3 levels in a row. The average strength at that level would be 0 and average defence would be 3. Oscar need to buck his ideas up though or he might end up getting benched for Kieran. Heh, love it when a unit grows against the average. Like a speed-blessed Dorcas. That Soren sounds quite reliable by now. I'm definitely going to make Kyle a Great Knight (if I get the appropriate Crest). Kyle just seems like he should be a Great Knight, whereas Franz and Forde seem like they should be Paladins. I'd rather have two Paladins (Seth is the other, of course) and two Great Knights, but I can't help taking their characters into account (proof it's a good game, I suppose). It seems I forgot to tell you to make your small party diverse, too. The game gives you 2, maybe 3, Knight Crests. If you're training Franz, Forde, Kyle, Gilliam and Amelia, then someone's getting forcibly benched. Unless you visit the secret shop and decide to pay 10000 for one.
Grazza Posted February 10, 2013 Posted February 10, 2013 It seems I forgot to tell you to make your small party diverse, too. The game gives you 2, maybe 3, Knight Crests. If you're training Franz, Forde, Kyle, Gilliam and Amelia, then someone's getting forcibly benched. Oh, absolutely - I am pro-variety. I have only "made" one Paladin. Will make a Great Knight (Kyle) and a General (Amelia) with the others. I suppose Forde and Gilliam will have to lose out, unless I buy more Knight Crests. Looking forward to making Gerik a Hero (have got the Hero Crest now, I just have to wait until he's Level 20) and Garcia a Warrior if I get another one. As I say, Ross is a Berserker in my game and I'm very happy with that, although I found out in Chapter 10 that his magic defence isn't that good! Used Vanessa to beat the boss. By the way, is there a way to level-up the healers other than by healing (I know dodging attacks gives some EXP, but not much)? I haven't promoted any of my magic users, healers or otherwise, as they are so low level.
Jonnas Posted February 10, 2013 Posted February 10, 2013 By the way, is there a way to level-up the healers other than by healing (I know dodging attacks gives some EXP, but not much)? I haven't promoted any of my magic users, healers or otherwise, as they are so low level. Other staves give better EXP (Heal gives 11, Mend gives 12, Torch gives something like 30-40, to give a few examples). If you're doing Eirika Route, you probably won't need the Barrier Staff much, so feel free to abuse that one for EXP. Also, healers are a good candidates for early promotion, if you're looking to ever use them for combat. If you just want to keep using them to heal, leave them unpromoted, as they gain more EXP that way.
-Dem0- Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 After I finish Sacred Stones I was planning on replaying FE7 again, followed by FE6. I haven't played 2,3,4,5 & Path of Radiance and was wondering which order I should play them in if I get the chance. Any advice?
Jonnas Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 The release order? Not a good suggestion. The first two are absolutely archaic, and even then, the accessibility varies from game to game (for example, playing FE6 before FE7 is something I don't recommend) After I finish Sacred Stones I was planning on replaying FE7 again, followed by FE6.I haven't played 2,3,4,5 & Path of Radiance and was wondering which order I should play them in if I get the chance. Any advice? If you can find Path of Radiance, feel free to start with that one, and then move on to Radiant Dawn. That's my main recommendation. Fire Emblem 3 is one I haven't played, and likely won't. FE12 is that one's remake, and a translation patch already exists, so if you're considering FE3, go for 12, instead (just remember that Shadow Dragon comes first, story-wise). From what I've heard, it hits the right notes that Shadow Dragon didn't. FE4 is often considered by many fans to be one of the best in the series, and a translation patch exists (though it's undergoing some changes right now. Apparently, Awakening gave official localized names for weapons and characters, and the fans are correcting the patch accordingly). That's a good option, too. FE5 should only be played after FE4, both due to the story and the complex gameplay elements that are brought from the fourth game (making it the most complex game in the series). Do this one later.
Magnus Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 Not a good suggestion. The first two are absolutely archaic, and even then, the accessibility varies from game to game (for example, playing FE6 before FE7 is something I don't recommend) Surely the fact that the games get more and more archaic the further back you go is even more reason to play them in release order? Assuming he's planning on playing all of them, I mean.
Jonnas Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 Surely the fact that the games get more and more archaic the further back you go is even more reason to play them in release order? Assuming he's planning on playing all of them, I mean. Let me put it this way. The first one already has a remake. They updated many things (but not all), and the game still feels like a step backwards (Dem0 may have played that one, though he didn't outright say it). A bit like Final Fantasy I. The NES version is unbearable nowadays, and the remakes can't help but feel awkward by today's standards. The second game tried to do something different (it feels more like a traditional RPG), but ultimately consists of trudging through battle with little in the way of strategy or story progression (basically, like trying to play the NES version of Final Fantasy II). Feel free to try it, but playing it before the others won't make it any easier to bear. Plenty of its gameplay elements were revisited in the eight game, anyway, and much better implemented. Just saying, these games have aged terribly, and what they did was redone better, in more recent games. Playing them is pointless unless you really want to see how the genre started.
Ike Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 I bought FE1 on my Japanese 3DS, and... it's really bad. Shadow Dragon is the best version of it to play (haven't tried FE3, but I would rather play FE11 and FE12).
-Dem0- Posted February 11, 2013 Posted February 11, 2013 Haven't played FE1, didn't intend to either, however I played Shadow Dragon back when it was released. I was just seeing what order I should play some of the others but it probably won't be anytime soon.
Captain Falcon Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 (edited) Funny, I think that Kyle is the weakest Cavalier, because his speed is a dodgy variable. Forde's potential lack of strength can be solved via supports, at least.Franz > Seth > Forde > Kyle, for me. (Also, I prefer movement over raw strength) His speed can be a bit ropey in the beginning but in Chapter 5x, his HP, strength and Defence make him better than Forde and with a Steel Lance can kill in two turns whereas Forde takes 3 and won't be double attacking enemies until he gains a couple of levels. Movement is a boon, but when I have Seth, Tana and Cormag, I feel I have enough longer range units to rely on that having him with 6 move isn't an issue. I just feel that whlist Kyle is only really good for one thing, he does that one thing very well whereas Forde and Franz are more in the middle ground of general utility without specialisation and there are enough good troups that you don't have to start patching holes in your team with them. I think they would benefit more in other FE games than they do this one. In FE7, Paladins were great (and had full weapon triangle access) and in 9 and 10, they have the Canto skill which is incredibly useful. I just think the way FE8 is set up, Paladins are inherently less useful than in the other games. And it may well ultimately come down to the difficulty of the game and the enemies you face. The maps also tend to feel smaller on this game than others too. And Paladins are probably my favourite class. Sword masters wowed me in the beginning but I quickly came to realise they can't beat a good Hero though Joshua gives it a bloody good go. Heh, love it when a unit grows against the average. Like a speed-blessed Dorcas. That Soren sounds quite reliable by now. I had to make a reset so Soren has lost one of his strength up, meaning he's only on 2 now, but his defence is up to 9 at level 14 which is pretty shocking (in a really good way). Boyd is once again turning out pretty impressively and has almost as much resistance as he does defence. Oscar is a smidge below average on half of his stats but I think I'll stick with him for support with Ike and bond with Boyd. I'm about to start Chapter 11, so I've just got Nephenee and will be praying she doesn't get screwed for strength. Also not sure whether to keep Mia or go for Zihark. Mia is 2 levels higher than him but only beating him on 3 stats which I'd expect him to match on by the time he's leveled. But then Mia can get Fire support with Rhys and I wasn't planning on using Brom. Decisions, decisions... Edited February 12, 2013 by Captain Falcon
Jonnas Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 Movement is a boon, but when I have Seth, Tana and Cormag, I feel I have enough longer range units to rely on that having him with 6 move isn't an issue. I just feel that whlist Kyle is only really good for one thing, he does that one thing very well whereas Forde and Franz are more in the middle ground of general utility without specialisation and there are enough good troups that you don't have to start patching holes in your team with them. Precisely because of the other 8-moving folk is why 8-move is handier. With less Move, Kyle can only keep up with the foot units. The lack of Axes isn't that serious in Sacred Stones, where Generals aren't that common. The lack of Hand Axes is still a bit of a bummer, but as long as Javelins are still there, they'll manage. Also not sure whether to keep Mia or go for Zihark. Mia is 2 levels higher than him but only beating him on 3 stats which I'd expect him to match on by the time he's leveled. But then Mia can get Fire support with Rhys and I wasn't planning on using Brom. Decisions, decisions... I'd go with Zihark. Mia's low strength is bothersome more often than not, and Adept is better than Vantage.
Captain Falcon Posted February 13, 2013 Posted February 13, 2013 Precisely because of the other 8-moving folk is why 8-move is handier. With less Move, Kyle can only keep up with the foot units. The lack of Axes isn't that serious in Sacred Stones, where Generals aren't that common. The lack of Hand Axes is still a bit of a bummer, but as long as Javelins are still there, they'll manage. But as Great Knight he is supposed to be the front line of the foot units along with Gerik and hopefully a boot equipped Gilliam. If he had 8 movement, and you sent him off on a treck, he'd take out everyone before anyone else got a look in - the enemies just aren't fast enough to trouble his lower speed compared to the others and then his strength/defence comes through more. Plus the promotion gains to GK give him an extra point of speed he wouldn't otherwise get. Axes aren't just for the benefit of the weapon triangle, they also do more damage. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one I'd go with Zihark. Mia's low strength is bothersome more often than not, and Adept is better than Vantage. I sense another disagreement coming up here :p Mia strength can be an issue, which is why I have that Fire support with Rhys, but I value Vantage over Adept. The problem with Adept is that it activates by chance based on Skill. You can't plan around that as you never know if it will activate. At least with Vantage, it's 100% guaranteed to work and thus becomes something you can factor into your strategy with absolute certainty. Sometimes you might not want to kill an enemy because you want to spread the Exp or because you intend to create a bottleneck but Adept can screw you over with that. I know why people might prefer it an offensive unit, like SM who will be wanting to kill out right normally and not do the things I just mentioned, but relying on Adept to kill an enemy pretty dangerous in my mind.
Jonnas Posted February 13, 2013 Posted February 13, 2013 But as Great Knight he is supposed to be the front line of the foot units along with Gerik and hopefully a boot equipped Gilliam. If he had 8 movement, and you sent him off on a treck, he'd take out everyone before anyone else got a look in - the enemies just aren't fast enough to trouble his lower speed compared to the others and then his strength/defence comes through more. Plus the promotion gains to GK give him an extra point of speed he wouldn't otherwise get. Axes aren't just for the benefit of the weapon triangle, they also do more damage. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one Well, my point was that Kyle functions like a cavalier up until promotion, afterwards, his purpose becomes "another foot unit". So, whatever I was doing with Kyle, he needs to start functioning differently. Unless he takes the boots, which is something I never tried, now that I think about it (Also, Gilliam is unworthy of those boots :P He's never been that good, from personal experience) Yes, I'm aware of the extra damage (hence why Hand Axes are better). It's just that very few enemies in this game require that extra oomph to defeat. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. Anyway, agree to disagree, right? I sense another disagreement coming up here :p Mia strength can be an issue, which is why I have that Fire support with Rhys, but I value Vantage over Adept. The problem with Adept is that it activates by chance based on Skill. You can't plan around that as you never know if it will activate. At least with Vantage, it's 100% guaranteed to work and thus becomes something you can factor into your strategy with absolute certainty. Sometimes you might not want to kill an enemy because you want to spread the Exp or because you intend to create a bottleneck but Adept can screw you over with that. I know why people might prefer it an offensive unit, like SM who will be wanting to kill out right normally and not do the things I just mentioned, but relying on Adept to kill an enemy pretty dangerous in my mind. Okay, I should clarify: Adept is better than Vantage, when it comes to Myrmidons/Swordmasters. That class already relies on luck to be effective, anyway, Adept simply ups their odds. You won't be relying on Adept any more than you already rely on that extra 15% + Killing Edge. Vantage, however, needs tremendous luck to make a difference, as your Swordmaster needs to activate a Critical (or Astra) in that one attack they have over their opponent. Furthermore, Mia's low strength will mean that the one attack may not be enough, even if it crits (Rhys Support may help here, though). You're absolutely right on your points (down to admitting that priorities are different for Swordmasters), but I think you're overstating the usefulness of Vantage on Mia. It's a skill that better serves other units.
Captain Falcon Posted February 13, 2013 Posted February 13, 2013 Well, my point was that Kyle functions like a cavalier up until promotion, afterwards, his purpose becomes "another foot unit". So, whatever I was doing with Kyle, he needs to start functioning differently. Unless he takes the boots, which is something I never tried, now that I think about it (Also, Gilliam is unworthy of those boots :P He's never been that good, from personal experience) Yes, I'm aware of the extra damage (hence why Hand Axes are better). It's just that very few enemies in this game require that extra oomph to defeat. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. Anyway, agree to disagree, right? Actually, I think we may have just come to an agreement after all. Yeah, as a GK, he changes tact and has a different role on the team than when he was a Cavalier or if he went Paladin and he's the best in that new role from my experience. Whilst enemies aren't exactly defence blessed, a lot of the physical attacking creatures do have high HP to consider. Okay, I should clarify: Adept is better than Vantage, when it comes to Myrmidons/Swordmasters. That class already relies on luck to be effective, anyway, Adept simply ups their odds. You won't be relying on Adept any more than you already rely on that extra 15% + Killing Edge. Vantage, however, needs tremendous luck to make a difference, as your Swordmaster needs to activate a Critical (or Astra) in that one attack they have over their opponent. Furthermore, Mia's low strength will mean that the one attack may not be enough, even if it crits (Rhys Support may help here, though). You're absolutely right on your points (down to admitting that priorities are different for Swordmasters), but I think you're overstating the usefulness of Vantage on Mia. It's a skill that better serves other units. Perhaps Mia isn't the best candidate, but between the SM Crit Bonus, a Killing Edge, and say Wrath, Vantage suddenly becomes a bit tastier. Yes, Adept would give me more chances to Critical overall, but when you can get a near 100% critical rate, always attacking first seems more beneficial as even on enemy turns, I'm killing before the enemy even takes a swing, never mind Mia's luck and speed means she has crazy dodge. Perhaps in isolation, Adept is better but overall as part of a strategy, I feel Vantage holds more potential because it can always be relied on. I don't think you can fit both Astra and Vantage but then Astra does less than a critical and you can't stack the deck like with crits - Astra is massive waste of everyone's time.
Jonnas Posted February 13, 2013 Posted February 13, 2013 Perhaps Mia isn't the best candidate, but between the SM Crit Bonus, a Killing Edge, and say Wrath, Vantage suddenly becomes a bit tastier. Yes, Adept would give me more chances to Critical overall, but when you can get a near 100% critical rate, always attacking first seems more beneficial as even on enemy turns, I'm killing before the enemy even takes a swing, never mind Mia's luck and speed means she has crazy dodge. Perhaps in isolation, Adept is better but overall as part of a strategy, I feel Vantage holds more potential because it can always be relied on. I don't think you can fit both Astra and Vantage but then Astra does less than a critical and you can't stack the deck like with crits - Astra is massive waste of everyone's time. Ah, you fit Wrath into the equation. Due to the skill system in PoR, I tend to forget about it, or simply give it to Ike or Boyd. I guess that would make it more worthwhile, though it does require Mia to get hit and fight injured while Rhys is nearby. Didn't know that about Astra. Thought it was 5 times the damage, turns out it's 2.5
Captain Falcon Posted February 14, 2013 Posted February 14, 2013 Ah, you fit Wrath into the equation. Due to the skill system in PoR, I tend to forget about it, or simply give it to Ike or Boyd. I guess that would make it more worthwhile, though it does require Mia to get hit and fight injured while Rhys is nearby. Didn't know that about Astra. Thought it was 5 times the damage, turns out it's 2.5 I've said before, though it might have been in the Awakening thread after you mentioned it used the FE10 skill allocation system, that I don't really like how it's handled in 9 so I'm trying to make the most use of it. I generally give Ike an Occult scroll but Boyd's sky high HP and average defense makes him a far more natural fit. I don't really want Mia to be taking hits, but if her health does get low, it certainly works better when coupled with Vantage as a get out of jail card for anyone looking to finish her off. I'm not treating it as an offensive tool, but as part of a defensive one if she needs it. This is all starting to sound like a lot of effort for one character but she has way more personality than Zihark. I decided to use a speed wing on my Oscar as I wasn't happy with his speed stat but then looking online, it seems he was at the average spot for his level but at least he's now got scope for being a bit screwed and though his attack is way above what it should be - I think he may have traded growths with Keiran as he fits much more in line with the Cain/Red Knight archetype.
Jonnas Posted February 14, 2013 Posted February 14, 2013 I generally give Ike an Occult scroll but Boyd's sky high HP and average defense makes him a far more natural fit. Truth be told, it's hard for your units to get seriously injured, unless it's Boyd, who lacks an impressive defence or dodge. With Ike, it's more for him to use it against Ashnard and/or the Black Knight. This is all starting to sound like a lot of effort for one character but she has way more personality than Zihark. Well, truth be told, with that I can't argue
Grazza Posted March 1, 2013 Posted March 1, 2013 Finally ploughed through to the final stage of Fire Emblem: the Sacred Stones. I've just found it quite difficult to play. Anyway, I got to Lyon but couldn't beat him. I haven't got anyone who can use the best spells, and I saved my game (so no levelling-up). Is it possible for me to beat him?
Captain Falcon Posted March 1, 2013 Posted March 1, 2013 Finally ploughed through to the final stage of Fire Emblem: the Sacred Stones. I've just found it quite difficult to play. Anyway, I got to Lyon but couldn't beat him. I haven't got anyone who can use the best spells, and I saved my game (so no levelling-up). Is it possible for me to beat him? You don't need spells to beat him, just get someone to stick a lance or sword through his face.... providing they are strong enough. Ephraim should be more than good if you've been using him. Do you have Gerik as a Hero or Ross as anything promoted? I mean, they both have excellent strength growths so should be strong enough if you've been using them. Lyon isn't very fast so he certainly won't be doubling the vast majority of your team. And as such, they only need to be able to withstand one hit. Don't attack Lyon on your turn. Just put your unit next to him so that Lyon attacks on his turn and you will counterattack. Then on your turn, you can move your unit away if necessary to heal. If you have any Pure Water or Barrier Staffs, you can use them to boost your magical resistance. Anyway, I finally beat Path of Radiance earlier in the week (so that's FE 7, 8, 11 and 9 I've beat in the last 12 months) and yes, I did exactly what I always did and so got to the final level with most of my skills unnassigned, except 3 (Occult on Ike and Volke and Vantage on Nephenee) and all the stat boosting items unused except a Speed Wing given to Oscar. I aslo had a good amount of Bonus Exp available too. In my other play throughs, I've used that at the end to level everyone equally and balance my team but this time, I decided to focus on 20/20ing some units so they get the stat boost in Radiant Dawn if I carry that save over. Ike was already level 20/18 since I made sure he was nice and leveled for the Black Knight, who went down in 3 turns, and when he hit 20/20, he'd capped everything bar Magic and Luck. So I got Titania to level 20 with max Strength, Skill and Speed and Nephenee also hit 20/20 with max Strength, Skill and Speed. I choose Nephenee since she appears in Part 2 of RD and that opening chapter of hers can be a bit tricky with her, Brom and Heather - my team was mostly the Greil Mercenaries. And it will be of use in the Final Chapter in Part 2 where everything you can get your hands on helps.
Grazza Posted March 1, 2013 Posted March 1, 2013 You don't need spells to beat him, just get someone to stick a lance or sword through his face.... providing they are strong enough. Ephraim should be more than good if you've been using him. Do you have Gerik as a Hero or Ross as anything promoted? I mean, they both have excellent strength growths so should be strong enough if you've been using them. Yep, Ross is a Berserker and Gerik is a Hero. Both have seemed very strong until now, but I just can't find a weapon that's effective. When I look at the "Might" stat, I'm getting single-digit numbers. Those two, Ephraim and everyone else were Level 20 before I promoted them too.
Captain Falcon Posted March 2, 2013 Posted March 2, 2013 Yep, Ross is a Berserker and Gerik is a Hero. Both have seemed very strong until now, but I just can't find a weapon that's effective. When I look at the "Might" stat, I'm getting single-digit numbers. Those two, Ephraim and everyone else were Level 20 before I promoted them too. Lyon has higher resistance than defence so your magical hitters will still need to hit a lot harder than you physical ones even with the best spells. Moulder is terrible when it comes to offence so that leaves Artur as a Bishop being the best light magic user and even then, you'd still stand a better chance with a physical attacker and light magic tends to be the weakest of magic types. Don't you have the sacred weapons at this point too? They will make short work of him and give the user a stat boost whilst equiped to a particular stat which could result in extra damage. As long as you are doing more damage per turn than Lyon is healing then you should be able to just grind it out. If he has any Vulneraries or Elixers, use a thief/rogue to steal them if you are actively using one in your team. Otherwise, do the counter attack thing until he's weak enough that you can surround him with four units and finish him off on your turn before he has a chance to use one.
Grazza Posted March 2, 2013 Posted March 2, 2013 Don't you have the sacred weapons at this point too? They will make short work of him and give the user a stat boost whilst equiped to a particular stat which could result in extra damage. I think so - I've been going through the game with iron weapons so as not to "waste" the more powerful ones, and yet I thought I'd tried using the best swords (with Eirika) and it wasn't very effective. I'm glad to hear Lyon's Resistance is higher than his Defence, because I just haven't been using the mages, and don't have any who can use Rank S spells.
Jonnas Posted March 3, 2013 Posted March 3, 2013 @Grazza: Everything C.Falcon has said so far is quite true. And here's a more general tip: weapon triangle advantage isn't always your best option. Mages are the best example, as physical attacks are more effective than any magic (except Luna), but there are also many occasions where you're better off using a Sage against a sturdy General. Also, since you're near the end, don't be afraid to use your "Killer" and "Brave" weapons. They can also be very effective on Lyon. (That thing you do where you don't want to waste your better weapons... that's normal for all of us )
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