What was 'wrong' with Twilight Princess?

[Blue_Ninja0]

What's wrong with Twilight Princess is that everyone got overhyped and thought Nintendo was delivering the next big videogame revolution since Super Mario 64.

 

Besides that it's pretty much as good as all the best Zeldas out there. It would definitely benefit from a harder difficulty and something more to do in the overworld. It had the exact same problem as WW in the overworld aspect.

Definitely one of my favourite Zeldas.

[darkjak]

A valid point. Like I said, TP is my second fave Zelda after OOT. Thing is though, Zelda games, par Zelda II had always been the been the game of the year in all mags, and the greatest game ever upon release. It feels like OOT was the final Zelda to achieve this goal. Nontheless, I like TP a lot.

[Retro_Link]

When Nintendo made OOT they themselves set the standard of how a 3D Zelda game should look and play. Making Zelda cel-shaded was like making a fully realistic Timesplitters, only ten times worse, since TS allways has had a SOMEWHAT realistic graphic style. It's like that comparasint to Ferrari. Ferrari don't make stationwagons, just like Zeldas aren't toon shaded.

 

It's not really a case of worthy or not worthy. It's more a case of fitting in.

Why do you assume that Zelda's have to have a realistic style to be considered true Zelda's?

Who's to say OOT and MM weren't a break from the norm?

 

Because you could argue WW's cel shading...

 

 

is a closer 3D representation of this...

 

 

OOT is may favourite game of all time, and I can't say I was at all pleased when WW graphical style was revealed.

But after playing it there was no denying it was beautiful and it retained all that Zelda magic, whilst introducing more humour into the series, with a good story etc...

The thing I didn't really like about WW was the theme [more so at the time than looking back at it now]. Sailing the sea's and all the pirate characters [especially Zelda being a pirate and not knowing she was Zelda] was a very different direction for the series which I did struggle with.

 

I wouldn't have thought I'd prefer WW over TP [before having played it], but I'd have to say I probably did!

[tapedeck]

The whole Wind Waker situation just screamed "NEW FRANCHISE OPPORTUNITY" to me.

Link could easily have been a new character, with the same setting easily offering pirate hi-jinks. At times the Legend Of Zelda felt, dare I say it? Forced, or shoe-horned into it.

 

If a non-Zelda title, Wind Waker would then have been regarded as one of the freshest things Nintendo has ever done. Instead it is placed in regards to dark, realistic Zelda vibes all of the time.

 

I guess when a title has similar control schemes to another/or previous iteration in a series, it will always be a comparison piece.

 

Twilight Princess was excellent. At times it evoked more atmosphere than any title I've played - ever. The only thing I feel I can fault it on was the lack of a cohesive, lived-in world. Twilight Princess certainly proves that bigger isn't always better.

[Hellfire]

The whole Wind Waker situation just screamed "NEW FRANCHISE OPPORTUNITY" to me.

Link could easily have been a new character, with the same setting easily offering pirate hi-jinks. At times the Legend Of Zelda felt, dare I say it? Forced, or shoe-horned into it.

 

If a non-Zelda title, Wind Waker would then have been regarded as one of the freshest things Nintendo has ever done. Instead it is placed in regards to dark, realistic Zelda vibes all of the time.

 

 

You're crazy! Crazy!

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

Oh, I think I agree; I prefer WW over TP, well its tight really. But the WW storyline is certainly superior to TP's in my opinion, with the Lost City of Atlantis theme. I also admire the smoothness of the WW overworld when travelling to and fro. TP loading times and narrow, linear paths are a throw back - I might just say WW felt technically superior and more advanced than TP.

 

Wind Waker had more charm than Twilight Princess imo because the silly style of WW allowed for more Zelda 'magic' to be espoused. The realistic approach is also less forgiven graphics-wise...I really thought the trees in TP looked ugly but in WW that first grassy area you get to on Outset Island looks so lush.

 

I'm sure if WW was set in a traditional Hyrule Field with all the classical races and their respective locales, WW would have been the true successor to OOT. In fact I welcome a WW-esque sequel that expands on what WW did such as the large, load-free, easily accessible overworld and a much more expanded upon otherworld rather than the annoyingly restricted ancient Hyrule.

 

I think MM and WW hold the secrets to a spectacular Zelda experience.

[Tellyn]

I think MM and WW hold the secrets to a spectacular Zelda experience.

 

Agreed. If Nintendo won't be releasing Zelda Wii for a while, wouldn't it be nice to get a cel-shaded Majora's Mask remake? I'm salivating at the thought of it.

[Hellfire]

TP doesn't have linear paths at all, just because when you move into another area of the field there's a narrow passage doesn't make it linear, it's just a corridor between two parts of the overworld. What I mean is, it's not like Fable, it's still a huge, free roaming overworld and to me, much better than WWs where if one simply wanted to go from A to B it's boring as hell (didn't happen to me, as I'm always searching from treasure).

 

Of course that if they could have avoided that and make one seamless overworld (except for the Lost Woods and Desert I like it that they're isolated) it would be better, but hardware limitations are a bitch.

It's a shame it has loadings, but they're fast, not that often and unavoidable, since WW had miles and miles of nothing it's easy to avoid loadings into new areas since they're mostly small islands. We'll see how they can handle that issue when building a game ground up for the Wii.

 

WW was a fantastic game, that despite getting flamed left and right back then now it's loved by all. Just like happened with MM and will probably happen to TP too.

 

Yeah, realistic games never hold up as well, WW will most likely be beautiful "forever", TP won't look pretty that long, although I love TP aesthetically and the graphics are amazing, I have no idea how they pulled it off on GC.

I wouldn't mind if we had cel shading for young Link and realistic for adult Link. It's up to them, spice it up :P I really have no idea what they're gonna do with Zelda, everything's changing and the market's weird right now.

 

I just know that this discussion made me boot TP a few hours ago <3

[Falcon_BlizZACK]

TP doesn't have linear paths at all, just because when you move into another area of the field there's a narrow passage doesn't make it linear, it's just a corridor between two parts of the overworld. .

 

LOL...and corridors are linear paths. ...Basically the 'corridors' are there because of all those patches of hills and unreachable terrain, they really didn't have to be there - it could have been one big, squared expanse. But yeah, system limitations I guess, but they should have known better. It was nice being able to see Hyrule Castle from the Gerudo Desert but if they were problematic technically, was such really worth it?

 

Agreed. If Nintendo won't be releasing Zelda Wii for a while, wouldn't it be nice to get a cel-shaded Majora's Mask remake? I'm salivating at the thought of it.

 

That would be cool. A remake of WW with waggle and IR would be cool and with all the things they left out. But what i wonder is if Nintendo will ever get around to making that TRUE remake of OOT as everyone once speculated (along with remakes of FF7). All we got was the Master Quest and OOT playable on GC. But a full blown TP-esque remake of OOT still has my tail wagging...But I guess theres no point of that since TP. :/

[Hellfire]

LOL...and corridors are linear paths. ...Basically the 'corridors' are there because of all those patches of hills and unreachable terrain, they really didn't have to be there - it could have been one big, squared expanse. But yeah, system limitations I guess, but they should have known better. It was nice being able to see Hyrule Castle from the Gerudo Desert but if they were problematic technically, was such really worth it?

 

Like I said, the game's world isn't linear at all, just the passages between certain parts, I mean if 2 seconds of linearity makes the whole field linear, we might have a problem here. The corridors aren't there because of the unreachable terrain, the unreachable terrain is there, to be able to make these passes in order to make the overworld bigger. So it's either this or a smaller/emptier overworld. This way the field looks realistic with mountains, fields, valleys and passes instead of... an empty square. I don't really understand exactly what you want or how this isn't obvious.

[James McGeachie]

The game was great, it didn't "disappoint" me at all but there are several flaws I can think of.

 

The biggest and most important one for me, is the pacing of the game. For the first 4-5 dungeons...it's pretty perfect. Good amount to do between each one and each dungeon maintaining a good length. After that however, suddenly the game just starts rushing towards the ending, almost like someone just hit the fast forward button and temples 6,8 and 9 specifically get much shorter and more simple, with a lot less to do between. Basically as a whole the second act of the game just feels far looser and less refined than the first.

 

Second issue is the pretty much forced inclusion of Ganondorf simply for the sake of having him. He feels pretty tacked on really just to make the story more "epic". Sure the battles were fun but it all just felt like it was just there for the sake of having the battles "everyone wanted" in the game. The game might've benefited more from putting more focus on Zant and fleshing him out more instead of relegating him to a lowly state.

 

In terms of actual gameplay and level design I thought the game was mostly very strong but it could've done with more weaving of multiple items in dungeons, instead of so much focus on just using each dungeon's defining item in that dungeon alone. The Spinner had a lot more potential than we got to see.

 

Music wise the game's soundtrack did the job well enough and I thought the main theme was a great composition...but I admit it saddened me that Koji Kondo didn't do ANY music for the game at all. His music is a huge factor in the appeal of the older titles and no one else truly knows how to compose for Mario and Zelda like him.

 

Few other minor niggles would be the split sections of the world map instead of the huge seamless one I'd dreamed up in my head from the early trailers and of course the fact that the game was too easy again. Oh and the lack of sidquests in comparison to the other recent 3d games.

 

Anyway it may sound like I have a lot of complaints but I thoroughly enjoyed the game and at many points earlier on was thinking "this is the best 3D one yet". It just didn't hold up to the standard up until the end sadly.

[Hellfire]

Koji Kondo basically oversees the main Nintendo soundtracks now, he has a touch in this one too.

I didn't find any lack of sidequests either, it seems to have more to do than any other Zelda, considering the main quest is bigger. Of course it doesn't have as much as MM, but that's due to the size of the main quest.

[Guest Jordan]

Although some think one style looks better or worse, let me ask you this. Which will get looked upon in a few years and thought of as still looking fantastic?

 

 

or

 

 

Although TP has a great style to it, Wind Waker is breathlessly beautiful and always will.

[Hellfire]

That's pretty much what everyone has been saying :P

Also:

[James McGeachie]

Koji Kondo basically oversees the main Nintendo soundtracks now, he has a touch in this one too.

I didn't find any lack of sidequests either, it seems to have more to do than any other Zelda, considering the main quest is bigger. Of course it doesn't have as much as MM, but that's due to the size of the main quest.

 

Well the sidequests thing is what I've mainly seen other people complain about. I think what they mean is more the lack of "personal" sidequests, like tasks for specific people, fetch quests, mini-storylines and the like. TP mainly just has a few different collection things. With the size and population of its Hyrule town, it feels like a lot more could've been going on there.

[Zero]

What's wrong with Twilight Princess is that everyone got overhyped and thought Nintendo was delivering the next big videogame revolution since Super Mario 64.

 

As much as I like TP, that is the exact reason why I feel it could have been better. If you overhype something your gonna be let down in some respect regardless of how good it is.

[Jonnas]

After reading a few points, I have a few of my own:

 

-The only reason people say TP is similar to OoT is because of two things.

First, the "realistic" graphical style. Second, they're trying to find a reason as to why the game felt "meh", and can't think of anything other than "It's because, after OoT, such a game can't impress me" (It happened to me once, with Metroid Prime 2).

Like Hellfire said, the two games are different in key parts. One had time travel, and the other one has a wolf. One was trying to re-invent the series staples in 3D, while the other tried to bring some new stuff to the table (like the battle techniques and the new items, not to mention the new approach to dungeons);

 

-The WW/"realistic zeldas" car analogy is actually "paint the car, then replace some key parts of the engine for a different, yet equally enjoyable feel of the car";

 

-Wind Waker was actually a Zelda at heart. They got the idea for Wind Waker, and thought that it had several similarities with Zelda (with the elements of adveture and exploration). They merged the ideas, and it grew from there.

I can understand people saying stuff about the pirates and the sea, though. They went from a medieval setting to a "sailors & pirates" setting. It's a somewhat drastic change.

And (for the WW haters) WW was still far more epic than TP. Sunken city and triforce conflicts Vs. An inter-dimensional war...that no NPC cares about (and with a shoed-in villan, too). It's a no-brainer, really.

 

-TP's dungeons were great, actually. It was a different approach, mainly because they bothered to introduce some story-telling within the dungeons. Add that to the new items and good design, and you get something great.

What I didn't like, though, was how the items were under-used outside the dungeons. Did anyone use the beyblade, or the ballchain outside their respective dungeons? I really wish they expanded more on that (and I hope they will, in a future Zelda)

 

-Finally, I didn't overhype myself. I stopped reading, or getting interested in anything about TP, until the game came out. I just bought it, hoping for a new solid Zelda experience. The fact that I liked Minish Cap and Link's Awakening more was a bit of a letdown, though.

[Stealthttd]

hey havnt been on in a while to busy playing games :-P.. but if i were to add stuff to the next zelda game i would want...

 

1. Bigger world ala elder scrolls... Zelda is a much bigger name than elder scrolls so i dont see why production vaule shouldnt be as high. In this big world i think there should be more cities and bigger cities. There should be shops sidequest and people to talk to in every town. And this can be done because games like world of warcraft do it quite well.

 

2. I think charter customization is a must. Being albe to get new armor have more than 3 choices of swords. Keep in mind i dont think that the armor should take away entirely from links basic look, but improve on it threw out the game. Kind of how in OOT you got the diffent color tunics but a bigger change than just colors. Its always fun to get better stuff.

 

3. battle system.. while it is near perfect I would like more depth. not just the lock on hack and slash games.

 

I think i taking stuff that i like from other games and trying to add them to zelda i understand this. That just has to be done tho zelda was epic when oot came out. huge game but now its a pretty small game compared to other games out today. Its played it to safe and has been passed up.

[K-project]

Oh, I think I agree; I prefer WW over TP, well its tight really. But the WW storyline is certainly superior to TP's in my opinion, with the Lost City of Atlantis theme. I also admire the smoothness of the WW overworld when travelling to and fro. TP loading times and narrow, linear paths are a throw back - I might just say WW felt technically superior and more advanced than TP.

 

I've heard this a few times now; people saying they feel TP was lacking technically. I'm going to say - do you think it's possible that many fans' possessiveness over the GameCube version actually led to them having a worse experience with Twilight Princess? I haven't played the GC version, but on Wii TP is extremely solid. There's no loading between areas (certainly nothing I've ever noticed at all), and there are no glitches of any sort. It's stunning imho.

 

I dare to suggest this, but I did find fans' extreme preference of the GC version mind boggling at the time, and I do think it's harmed the games' reputation as a result. My tuppence worth is - I loved Wind Waker, but it was very, very short and sweet. The graphics and style are amazing, but as a game it relied too heavily on that and didn't put the love into the actual adventure. Twilight Princess isn't perfect, or an antidote for those who hate the cel-shading, but is nevertheless a tremendous videogame, a wonderful addition to the lineage, and deserves a better rep among gamers.

[The-chosen-one]

mmh i really liked ( still do ) Twilight princess it only missed some thing the magic that ocarina of time and majoras mask had

things like the gerudo fortress or where you can go to the graveyard learn new songs i also miss the ocarina the ocarina fluit should be and stay a part of link i really liked that about zelda

or the ability to transform how you did in majora's mask

i also liked the Dins fire farores wind nayrus love powers that you can acheave in ocarina of time

 

and in the next zelda installment i want the bosses to be tougher

 

the most dissapointing zelda for me was when Windwaker was anounced i got really pissed of haha with his ugly cat eyes

they should really stick to the design of TP

[Grazza]

I've heard this a few times now; people saying they feel TP was lacking technically. I'm going to say - do you think it's possible that many fans' possessiveness over the GameCube version actually led to them having a worse experience with Twilight Princess?

 

You're absolutely right. The game ended up customised for the Wii, and so is probably better on that console.

 

I dare to suggest this, but I did find fans' extreme preference of the GC version mind boggling at the time, and I do think it's harmed the games' reputation as a result.

 

Well, Nintendo effectively used it to sell GameCubes with that 2004 trailer. And when you see the playable demo at the end of 2005, it's very hard to believe the game wasn't ready. The only noticeable difference in the Forest Temple, for instance, is the removal of the shield control.

 

Personally, I wanted the version I'd been expecting, and that included camera control and the game world in the correct orientation. It's not just stubborness - one of the joys of Wind Waker was swinging the camera round whenever you liked.

 

Why should people be so quick to accept the way Nintendo wanted to play it? I love the Zelda games; I don't "support" Nintendo as such. The GameCube, Wind Waker and Twilight Princess were worth every penny, but I wasn't willing to buy their new machine for a game they'd promised on GC.

 

Anyway, I agree with King V, Wind Waker introduced what a generational leap in horsepower could do for Zelda, and it was odd for TP not to feature all of those luxuries.

[K-project]

Well, I certainly didn't want to upset anyone. It was just a suggestion, just a very broad general observation.

 

I had a GC at the time too, but had an inkling they'd improve TP for the Wii in order to make it a strong launch title, so I held off buying the GC version because I knew I'd want the Wii one eventually. Some improvements didn't turn out so good as I gather, but overall I imagine the Wii version to be a bit more polished, but I wouldn't pretend to have any actual experience of that. I've only played the Wii version as I say. However I've read a number of posts around the net regarding technical issues with the game, that simply don't exist on the Wii game. And that led me to my post above.

[Pit-Jr]

I thought the controls and Wii-mote inventory juggling worked great on TP and i liked the fast pacing of going from dungeon to dungeon since the overworld was nothing to look at.

 

Definately a worthy entry into the series and a great standalone game but after playing the entire series, it leaves on a stale note and in dire need of an overhaul (preferably in HD with voice-acting)

[Gizmo]

Seems I'm in the minority who preferred TP to WW. While I agree on many of the points - I love the cel shading, I love the story, etc - it just didn't grab me like TP did. Indeed, I never actually finished WW, because I got so bored of sailing about, and the Triforce quest near the end just completely took it too far and I gave up.

 

Personally I think Nintendo are going to take the series in two directions - the overhead, cel-shaded handhelds games like PH to follow the WW "adult" storyline, and then the "realistic" home console games to follow the opposite storyline. At some point they'll merge them together and bring the whole storyline into clarity (though not for a while, they probably love all the theorising that goes on with it).

[Grazza]

Well, I certainly didn't want to upset anyone. It was just a suggestion, just a very broad general observation.

 

You definitely didn't upset me. It's nice to have a debate!

 

Twilight Princess is incredible. I think it's better than Phantom Hourglass (which I enjoyed very much) and is my 4th favourite Zelda because, quite honestly, I find the 3D ones more stimulating (loved LTTP and Link's Awakening at the time though).